Aller au contenu

Photo

WTF! Synthesis is disgusting


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
381 réponses à ce sujet

#276
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 373 messages

Reorte wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Rotward wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

All of the endings are beautiful.


They are, just not for this series. :blush:


They're perfect for this series.

Their implementation was woefully handled.
...

But the endings, as they are in themselves? Great. Not just for the trilogy, but for future implications for the franchise, moving forward, and upward.

No, not great. The basic idea of winding up deciding between Destroy and Control is fine, but you've got to pare it back to just that to leave anything worth having, and that's so bare bones that it can't really be called "great". Synthesis is utterly flawed in both concept and implementation though. Also you can't always say that an idea was good but the implementation was bad if the idea is impossible to implement well. That just makes it a bad idea (of course that doesn't rule out good ideas implemented badly).


Nope, Synthesis is a good idea. For a choice.

I'd try to never pick it if I were Shepard  ^_^. Trust Krogan? Eh... yeah, ok. Trust Geth? Hmmm.... it could go wrong, but I'll take that chance. Reapers? ..... lol.... no...... these guys are flawed from the core, not by circumstance.

At least unless we get to somehow see the inception of the Reapers. Who knows? :wizard:

#277
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 373 messages

ElSuperGecko wrote...


Garrus: Just tell me one thing, Shepard. You're going out there to destroy them, right? Not to study. Not to bring back. But to wipe them out.
Shepard: That's the plan. You have my word on it.
Garrus: All right, I'm in.

...any Shepard who chooses Synthesis is a traitor. full stop.


It its most basic, yes, totally.

A traitor to the Alliance, at least most of the Normandy, etc.

It really is the 'Ok, I'll be with you Reapers on this' choice. I don't really see a way around that.

It may offer incredible story potential if Bioware follows up on it (yes really, PM me if you want details and won't pick me apart for thinking them), but it's really not the Shepard that the writers build around, as the core, imo.

#278
Halo Quea

Halo Quea
  • Members
  • 909 messages
It's not synthesis itself that's the problem, the real immorality of it comes from two individuals playing God and making the choice for an ENTIRE galaxy of beings.

I also thought the Crucible could have been handled differently as well. I thought that perhaps a sympathetic A.I should have been needed to power and control it. Like maybe learning that all this time Vigil was a Reaper A.I that spent countless cycles trying to help organics build the Crucible. Maybe Shepard becomes that A.I by choosing synthesis for him/herself instead of the whole galaxy.

#279
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 373 messages

DarthLaxian wrote...

ginner dave wrote...

 Right, so I just finished a default paragon femshep play through. I picked synthesis for the first time, and what the ****?
If the space magic beam suddenly makes everyone equal then why are the reapers buggering off like they have somewhere to go (instead of starting repairs on the billion years worth of murder and destruction they've inflicted on the galaxy). 

In the destroy ending the races of the galaxy celebrate defeating the reapers, synthesis ending they inspect their own persons like something is wrong! 'Holy **** my nuckles are glowing' 
EDI. During the synthesis epilogue everyone looked miserable and confused, except EDI. Why the hell is every organic miserable and confused while the one robot we know is somehow happy with the decision you made everyone half robot?
This is supposed to make any kind of sense? :blink:


EDI is being happy that maybe Jeff might now be firstly "cured" of his brittle-bone-disease (who knows what those nanites do to someone having a hereditary disease?) and secondly that he is now closer to her (so of course she would be happy IMHO)

as for the rest?

well, the reapers are bugging out IMHO because they don't want the recovering organics to destroy them (they might retreat and then offer help with rebuilding), now that they have served their function (according to the catalyst...maybe they don't even know what to do now?)

greetings LAX
ps: still a bad ending ^^ - but not unexplainable on the whole ;)


I think we may see that in all endings (yep, even Destroy... just take me on this, lol), the Reapers won't really know what to do anymore.

#280
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests
I don't care if it's immoral or not. I just think Synthesis makes everyone boring, blurs too many lines between people, rids too many conflicts, pacifies the whole galaxy. Nice idea, but also.. boring as ****. For a game, it's boring. Even some random Barbie platformer game has more potential drama than that.

#281
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages
This thread is funny when the ITers are here.

They remind me of crazy ex-accountants that live in the desert who think the government kidnaps people in flying saucers.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 30 octobre 2013 - 09:10 .


#282
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 373 messages

Obadiah wrote...

Shepard Considers Synthesis

C: ...It is not something that can be forced. You are ready, and you may chose it.

S: I get it. It's about love.

C: Yes, it's about... wait, what?

S: I love the galaxy. Everyone. Liara and her scaley delicate features; Ashley with those full pouting lips; Tali and her fantastic curves; Hackett and his strong commanding voice; Jacob and those sculpted protective pecks; Miranda... well... do I really need to elaborate on Miranda?

With Synthesis, I can finally show them all how I feel at once. I'll allow the Crucible's energy to enter me, to fill every fiber of myself with its power, and then at the climax of our sick debased energetic union I'll explode all over the universe. 

Huh... I just realised, the entire Asari race!

In one glorious act, I can blast my... "organic energy"... all over THAT!

Yeah, my body is ready, but is my mind...? I just don't know.

C: Well, there's also the Yagh, the Batarian, the Rachni, the ...

S: I don't care if they watch. Where's that damn beam? This is going to be fantastic for everybody!

C: Look, I made a mistake. Clearly Organics are not ready. You showing up here in the chamber -  it was just dumb luck. Maybe you should step away...

--------------------------------------

Minutes later, Krogans inspect weird green crap covering themselves and think, "WTF?"


That's hilarious.

But yes, Synthesis is about love. All of them are. That's how we beat the Reapers... love... lol <3
Synthesis is act utilitarianism.
Control is rule utilitarianism.
Destroy is a deontological ethical move, or if you're taking a more selfish route, it is objectivist.

At least all on the face of things.

#283
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 373 messages

dorktainian wrote...

synthesis?

Whats the worst that can happen?

Image IPB


Well yep.

The worst understood possibility of Synthesis --> Harbinger's grand experiments -_-, which emphasize the worst of Control

The worst understood possibility of Control --> The Cycle itself happens again

The worst understood possibilty of Destroy --> Current AI die, and new ones will either continue the old chaos or lead to the worst of Control or Synthesis again

Everything else is unknown.

#284
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Obadiah wrote...

I'd argue with the notion that the problem just came out of left field. Sure, it had not been specifically identified as a problem to Shepard before then, but once the Catalyst articulated it, to me, from just a cursory recollection of ME1, ME2, and ME3, it was pretty damn obvious that the problem was there and the end result would be as the Catalyst described.

Only when I got this forum did I realise that other Shepards:
- Just didn't believe the problem existed
- Were pissed that the narrative threw them a curve ball and basically wanted a different story
- Did not want to make this choice

Looking back on it, it kinda reminds me of Neo meeting the Architect in Matrix 2 and watching all these other versions of himself rail against what the Architect was saying. (BTW I only remember that scene because someone linked it in on this forum).


The idiotic thing about it is that sure the problem exists, but not in some vacuum of "it must always exist and is always potentially deadly for all organic life".  Thing is there are other conflicts that are even more sure than this one because there's at least the initial and even continual possibility for a variety of synthetic lifeforms that could be created just as there are a variety of individual organic people with an almost infinite variety of proclivities-the good and the bad that exists already.  It's like saying a child will get angry with its parents and I'd say, of course.  But how many of those children will take out an axe and chop off their parents' heads?  If it's 1 or 10 do we then assume every single one of them will?  Or that this will lead to the deaths of parents everywhere?  And then is the solution to kill the parents and then every single person that reaches that parental stage?


Sure, some synthetic lifeforms may have conflict with organic lifeforms just as surely as all individuals have the ability to argue, but the converse is just as true-they may decide not to.  And that is THE most relevant thing that does exist as a large story in the game saying "don't ignore me", but that gets ignored.

The AI on the Citadel in ME1 wanted to stowaway on a geth ship and was willing to kill a lot of people if he was stopped.  But he was stopped and no one had to die.  EDI was on Luna, going a bit crazy, but wow look what EDI became or could become-a person wanting to help organic lifeforms and even falling in love with one.  The geth wanted to be alive and were being put down for that egregious act and went too far in their self-defense, but they retreated and showed themselves capable of far more nuanced understanding than the quarians--they had remorse and acted as caretakers for Rannoch awaiting the day when the quarians would come home.  Every single tale of synthetics going awry has a really good reason as to why it happened and outcomes that range from terminating them to making peace with them through dialogue and communication-not a forced understanding but a show of faith that they need not always be mistrusted. 

And that's far more intelligent than trying to create some artificial symbiotic existence.  The use of trust and a willingness to listen even in the face of overwhelming power that could snap you like a twig means far more and leads to a more solid coexistence than does some internal implanted connection that forces you to understand one another.  It creates growth and relationships--just like what happened with EDI.  Shepard in my game could have consistently told her what to do and she'd have complied, but she would not have learned and might not have become a real person by forming her own responses and feelings to things.  It's about deciding what to do rather than being made to do it. 

Anyone who's ever raised a child may have at one time confronted something similar with them.  It's amazing the first time this happens.  When they're growing up they may want to do something bad but see you looking at them and so maybe they won't do it.  But at one point, they're out of your view, and have to decide for themselves between right and wrong.  They may tell you about it or someone else might, and explain how they made the right choice and did a good thing.  The point is that is priceless.  Your child made a decision for the good without you telling them what to do.  It's kind of the same thing with forming bonds between synthetics and organics based upon a growth of trust and a decision to work together.  It creates a better more authentic bond.

#285
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 373 messages

ElSuperGecko wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...
Clearly, changing the overall makeup of everyone's genes and biology is a much bigger change than destroying the reapers. Destroying the Reapers returns galatic society back to the state that it was at before they arrived.


I'm sorry, are you now changing your original (flawed) premise to base it on degree of change, rather than change as a whole?

In any case:  LOL, no.  Synthesis is a Reaper idea and a Reaper construct.  The galaxy has been forced to follow Reaper ideas and Reaper constructs for billions of years.  Breaking that cycle is a bigger change than accepting it.


Synthesis --> The Cycle ends, seemingly forever
Control --> The Cycle ends, at least for now
Destroy --> The Cycle is broken, but may be made again
Refuse --> The Cycle continues, but is ended/broken later on


EDIT: To be clear, I'm talking about the Reaper/Intelligence created 'Reaper Cycle', not the much more informal and chaotic cycle of evolution and subsequent smaller conflicts with machines.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 30 octobre 2013 - 09:19 .


#286
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages
Synthesis is not a Reaper trap, its a geth trap, didn't you tell by Ashley's half eye twitch in ME3 when she was at the migrant Fleet?!?!?!


God, get it right at least

#287
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 373 messages

Steelcan wrote...

Synthesis is not a Reaper trap, its a geth trap, didn't you tell by Ashley's half eye twitch in ME3 when she was at the migrant Fleet?!?!?!


God, get it right at least


Now you're just trolling.

#288
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages

SwobyJ wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Synthesis is not a Reaper trap, its a geth trap, didn't you tell by Ashley's half eye twitch in ME3 when she was at the migrant Fleet?!?!?!


God, get it right at least


Now you're just trolling.

NO NO NO I HAVE A SOURCE!!!!

YOU JUST DON'T GET IT

#289
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Deathsaurer wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...


The kid as a piece of tech himself is more than likely being completely authentic in wanting synthesis but for reasons he has not been truthful about-he was actually a bit more honest in the original endings.  He said synthesis was about perfection through tech and actually is more emphatic about it stopping evolution, just as Sovereign was in ME1, but the evolution that must stop is organic evolution--he does nothing to stop synthetic evolution and in fact supports it by continually attempting to create a more fully integrated hybridized, synthesized being where the organic part is subjugated by and fused with the synthetic.  There is something he needs from the organic part, but he does not want the person to remain at all organic. 


And this is why it constantly failed. It didn't or more preciesly can't understand the organic component. This is the symbolism with the ending, a synthetic can't force their vision of it, it takes an organic and synthetic working together to make it work.


Or, more appropriately it takes an organic to force it upon other organics, except the kid's been forcing it all along on organics.  Yeah, this time it looks different but the kid says it all-the created will always rebel against the creator -- will destroy the creator.  The creator is an organic being named Shepard who is spreading all this creative juice all over everything-and is the first to be destroyed by the created (in the act of creating the created).  And every single time synthesis has happened it has resulted in the created (tech) overtaking the creator (organic).  I stand by this that this is the only constant that makes what the kid says true-external tech or tech that is not integrated with organic components does not destroy organic life.  Internal integrated tech (synthesis) does-always in this game it has.  It interanally destroys the organic organism the tech has attempted to integrate with-always.

#290
ghost9191

ghost9191
  • Members
  • 2 287 messages

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

This thread is funny when the ITers are here.

They remind me of crazy ex-accountants that live in the desert who think the government kidnaps people in flying saucers.



yes.... crazy :bandit:

#291
dorktainian

dorktainian
  • Members
  • 4 419 messages

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

This thread is fun when the ITers are here.

just corrected that for you.  hope you don't mind.

#292
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages

dorktainian wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

This thread is fun when the ITers are here.

just corrected that for you.  hope you don't mind.

Its funny how the ITers who come here with their lunacy are the same ones who poisoned the main thread and also use that cesspit of a section the "Scary Door", go talk about how the protheans actually enacted synthesis or something.

Modifié par Steelcan, 30 octobre 2013 - 09:37 .


#293
MassivelyEffective0730

MassivelyEffective0730
  • Members
  • 9 230 messages

dorktainian wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

This thread is fun when the ITers are here.

just corrected that for you.  hope you don't mind.


I do mind. It's funny. I'm all for IT'ers to have their own little song and dance and seance around the fire, but it just becomes humorous when they come in here and start waxing philosophically on the 'deontological' merits of destroy versus a 'utilitarian' philosophy of control and synthesis (Seriously, have any of you guys actually read and studied John Stuart Mill?) It's hilarious, pathetically so.

#294
dorktainian

dorktainian
  • Members
  • 4 419 messages
Honestly.  Enjoy the chat.  

Modifié par dorktainian, 30 octobre 2013 - 09:50 .


#295
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 292 messages

dorktainian wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

This thread is fun when the ITers are here.

just corrected that for you.  hope you don't mind.

Its funny how the ITers who come here with their lunacy are the same ones who poisoned the main thread and also use that cesspit of a section the "Scary Door" go talk about how the protheans actually enacted synthesis or something.

not bad considering you to are...  still... whatever masquerading on here....   anyway what are you doing away from the locked chat area boy?  come out for a nosey?  crawl back there jerk.

Was that google translated or something?

#296
Adrian Shepherd

Adrian Shepherd
  • Members
  • 214 messages

SwobyJ wrote...

All of the endings are beautiful.


I like how you think! And I mostly agree =]

#297
Deathsaurer

Deathsaurer
  • Members
  • 1 505 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

Or, more appropriately it takes an organic to force it upon other organics, except the kid's been forcing it all along on organics.  Yeah, this time it looks different but the kid says it all-the created will always rebel against the creator -- will destroy the creator.  The creator is an organic being named Shepard who is spreading all this creative juice all over everything-and is the first to be destroyed by the created (in the act of creating the created).  And every single time synthesis has happened it has resulted in the created (tech) overtaking the creator (organic).  I stand by this that this is the only constant that makes what the kid says true-external tech or tech that is not integrated with organic components does not destroy organic life.  Internal integrated tech (synthesis) does-always in this game it has.  It interanally destroys the organic organism the tech has attempted to integrate with-always.


Once again you're confusing the Catalyst's vision for it and the actual thing. I tried to force the machine perspective on organics, this can't work. The real thing is an actual balance of both, you know strengths of both weaknesses of neither. Kinda like Shepard post Lazarus only taken to the logical conclusion. It will happen, eventually. Science marches on. The Catalyst understood at the end it takes organics and synthetics working together to make it happen else it will fail entirely.

#298
dorktainian

dorktainian
  • Members
  • 4 419 messages
yes all three endings are in their own ways very well done. i dont agree with what happens after the choices but hey... thats debate - forums for you.

#299
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 373 messages

Deathsaurer wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...


The kid as a piece of tech himself is more than likely being completely authentic in wanting synthesis but for reasons he has not been truthful about-he was actually a bit more honest in the original endings.  He said synthesis was about perfection through tech and actually is more emphatic about it stopping evolution, just as Sovereign was in ME1, but the evolution that must stop is organic evolution--he does nothing to stop synthetic evolution and in fact supports it by continually attempting to create a more fully integrated hybridized, synthesized being where the organic part is subjugated by and fused with the synthetic.  There is something he needs from the organic part, but he does not want the person to remain at all organic. 


And this is why it constantly failed. It didn't or more preciesly can't understand the organic component. This is the symbolism with the ending, a synthetic can't force their vision of it, it takes an organic and synthetic working together to make it work.


^^^ Yep. Even as anti-Synthesis as I can be, this is what made it all happen.

All endings hold potential for chaos in various ways. Depends how much freedom you want, and how much security. And even then, it's different *types* of freedom.

There's a lot of intelligence in the ending of ME3 (omgididnt), but they lacked perception and insight into just how much narrative consistency and character conclusions matter.

Too much 'high level', not enough 'down to earth'.

#300
SwobyJ

SwobyJ
  • Members
  • 7 373 messages

Halo Quea wrote...

It's not synthesis itself that's the problem, the real immorality of it comes from two individuals playing God and making the choice for an ENTIRE galaxy of beings.

I also thought the Crucible could have been handled differently as well. I thought that perhaps a sympathetic A.I should have been needed to power and control it. Like maybe learning that all this time Vigil was a Reaper A.I that spent countless cycles trying to help organics build the Crucible. Maybe Shepard becomes that A.I by choosing synthesis for him/herself instead of the whole galaxy.


Leaked beta ending --> Javik was determined to be the Catalyst.

Agreed that certain 'revelations' at least akin to Ilos/Vigil stuff would have helped. That Ilos was more of a Reaper-planted
mechanism to urge Avatars (Saren, Shepard, likely maybe more) towards their 'destiny'.