381 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

dorktainian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

I'd argue with the notion that the problem just came out of left field. Sure, it had not been specifically identified as a problem to Shepard before then, but once the Catalyst articulated it, to me, from just a cursory recollection of ME1, ME2, and ME3, it was pretty damn obvious that the problem was there and the end result would be as the Catalyst described.

I'd argue it too. I'd say the Catalyst's shpiel at the end of the game is nothing more than an allegory to the Reapers themselves. The Reapers (and, by extension, the Catalyst) *are* what one could consider a technological-singularity entity.

As such, the organic-synthetic conflict problem wasn't "taking the focus off" anything. You weren't only dealing with some future problem, those solutions take effect immediately, too. Moral issues aside: if you feel synthetic threats can grow too big and too dangerous (such as the Reapers), Destroy them; if you want the benefit of having them around, but without granting total freedom, choose Control; if you want those same benefits and want them to self-determinate, choose Sync.

! <-- I frickin love this icon.

I'd say they're less like a technological-singularity, but more a machine race searching for that singularity because they suck at reaching it themselves, or at least perfecting it all into singularity status.

and here you might have hit on something.   Okies..speculation hat on    

Is Shepard the final piece of the puzzle, that allows the reapers to become that Technological Singularity by him choosing synthesis?  In the synthesis ending everyone appears synthesised.  Synthesise is an interesting word as well.  It can all mean something akin to 'copy'.  

"It is not something that can be forced"           


There is no spoon.

No offense, but I think you keep seeing the Reapers as the enemy you want them to be -- some kind of schemers with grandiose plans of galactic domination -- rather than the fairly mundane enemies that they are. Pawns, in fact, given the existence of the Catalyst (a.k.a. the Intelligence). To be fair, you're hardly alone in that, but... you are one die-hard cat! ^.^

And think about it: what good does "moar powerz" do for the Catalyst -- an AI that already has the whole galaxy under its thumb?? You literally cannot have more power than the Catalyst does. We're just lucky his mandate isn't something even more extreme, like: [cleanse the galaxy of all organic molecules everywhere], as we'd be helpless ever stop him. At least his [preserve organic life] directive allowed just enough time for life to thrive and rise to the point of finally overtaking him.

[SwobyJ]

Why can't they be both schemers and pawns?

I mean everything else in Mass Effect is.

However, I guess many people would take any Reaper being a pawn as ruining any perception we had of them in ME1.

[ghost9191]

SwobyJ wrote...

Why can't they be both schemers and pawns?

I mean everything else in Mass Effect is.

However, I guess many people would take any Reaper being a pawn as ruining any perception we had of them in ME1.

How dare you try and contradict the god child!

personally i wouldn't mind knowing if the reapers take part in the "harvest" willingly or not. They have a function yes, but they are still each a nation. Billions of organic minds uploaded. None of them have any control. Though they are all conjoined, maybe they feel this is the best solution. 

Although when they are conjoined, there are no longer a billion minds but one, i.e harbinger. And we all know what harbi and sovi think

mainly thinking outloud. or through text

[SwobyJ]

ghost9191 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Why can't they be both schemers and pawns?

I mean everything else in Mass Effect is.

However, I guess many people would take any Reaper being a pawn as ruining any perception we had of them in ME1.

How dare you try and contradict the god child!

personally i wouldn't mind knowing if the reapers take part in the "harvest" willingly or not. They have a function yes, but they are still each a nation. Billions of organic minds uploaded. None of them have any control. Though they are all conjoined, maybe they feel this is the best solution. 

Although when they are conjoined, there are no longer a billion minds but one, i.e harbinger. And we all know what harbi and sovi think

mainly thinking outloud. or through text

Personally I don't think they do it willingly.

They're harvests of FAILED Cycles. They've already decided there is no hope, no war, only Harvest.

However they are still 'individual nations' (if that makes sense)

After seeing the Geth Matrix (yes it's called that in the leaked script), it isn't hard for me to imagine a whole universe in a Reaper.... :ph34r:

This Cycle is different.

[ElSuperGecko]

ghost9191 wrote...
personally i wouldn't mind knowing if the reapers take part in the "harvest" willingly or not. They have a function yes, but they are still each a nation. Billions of organic minds uploaded. None of them have any control. Though they are all conjoined, maybe they feel this is the best solution. 

Although when they are conjoined, there are no longer a billion minds but one, i.e harbinger. And we all know what harbi and sovi think

mainly thinking outloud. or through text

It's a very good question, especially when it comes to Synthesis.

Because lets face it: following Synthesis, the Reapers remain the most dangerous force in the galaxy.  One can effectively wipe out a world.  So where would Synthesis leave them?

If the Reapers were each created by the dominant species from their cycle, it's a good bet that many of those species were warlike or aggressive.  If they're now unshackled and independent, will those traits resurface?  Could we see another Reaper war, or even a Reaper Civil War?

If they're not independent and unshackled, then something is still controlling them.  Something retains the power of that cuttlefish armada.  And what would that be, if not the Catalyst?

the Catalyst's tried Synthesis before.  It's always failed, and it's always reverted back to the cycle of extinction.  Suppose Synthesis doesn't turn out to be the "perfect solution" the Catalyst thinks it is?  Supposing, somewhere down the line, it becomes displeased with the results?  Whoops, apocalypse, look out boys, ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL WE ARE YOUR SALVATION THROUGH DESTRUCTION ET CETERA ET CETERA.



Yeah, better just shoot the tube.  Cleaner that way.  Less.... problematic.

[ghost9191]

@SwobyJ

Well that was kinda what i meant by willingly. Not so much out of pleasure, but because they see no alternative to the harvest. So they go along with it

@ElSuperGecko

Agreed. Though it is basically destroying them on a what if ( among other reasons ) . But considering their history, it seems like a pretty big risk to take the chance

Part of me wants to give them that chance, but not at the risk of the entire galaxy.

[ElSuperGecko]

ghost9191 wrote...
Agreed. Though it is basically destroying them on a what if ( among other reasons ) . But considering their history, it seems like a pretty big risk to take the chance

Part of me wants to give them that chance, but not at the risk of the entire galaxy.

If we'd actually seen anything from the Reapers that remotely resembled the potential thought processes or actions of a self-aware, independent species it might have been different.

We don't.  The conversations with Sovereign, Harbinger, the Rannoch Destroyer... all we get is remorseless, relentless, uncaring, unfeeling, single minded purpose.  They cannot be reasoned with.  They cannot be bargained with.  They are our end.  Our salvation through destruction.

Just like the various breeds of Husk, we see absolutely no evidence that anything remains of the knowledge and sentience of the races the Reapers were built from.  As Mordin says about the Collectors:

http://youtu.be/VJIQfmWx3dI?t=48s

"No glands, replaced by tech; no digestive system, replaced by tech; no soul.... replaced by tech.  Whatever they were... gone forever."

Bottom line - the races of the galaxy will always be at risk so long as the Reapers are around.

[ghost9191]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...
Agreed. Though it is basically destroying them on a what if ( among other reasons ) . But considering their history, it seems like a pretty big risk to take the chance

Part of me wants to give them that chance, but not at the risk of the entire galaxy.

If we'd actually seen anything from the Reapers that remotely resembled the potential thought processes or actions of a self-aware, independent species it might have been different.

We don't.  The conversations with Sovereign, Harbinger, the Rannoch Destroyer... all we get is remorseless, relentless, uncaring, unfeeling, single minded purpose.  They cannot be reasoned with.  They cannot be bargained with.  They are our end.  Our salvation through destruction.

Just like the various breeds of Husk, we see absolutely no evidence that anything remains of the knowledge and sentience of the races the Reapers were built from.  As Mordin says about the Collectors:

http://youtu.be/VJIQfmWx3dI?t=48s

"No glands, replaced by tech; no digestive system, replaced by tech; no soul.... replaced by tech.  Whatever they were... gone forever."

Bottom line - the races of the galaxy will always be at risk so long as the Reapers are around.

Fair enough.

While i do acknowledge the catalyst gave function to the reapers, i highly doubt they were "forced" to do the harvest. And it is not like they didn't see any other way of living lol. I guess my point is, yes they were given a function but it seemed they still had some freewill. Nothing shows that they didn't. The only thing the catalyst says about it is " i gave them function, they in turn gave me purpose." or something

So basically the most advanced AI in the galaxy couldn't over come their programming. if it was truly programed. even when the geth were able to break the reaper control ( the primes ) 

so yes they were given a purpose, but for millions of years they did nothing else. Assuming they were able to think for themselves ( which considering they were the most advanced AI's and were each a nation, it isn't far fetched ) , that just shows they believed what they were doing was the right option or only option. Which would hardly make them innocent. Misguided maybe but not innocent.

Which explains why the reapers stop in synthesis, because their goal is achieved. For now. Though i suppose it would be too much to put them on trial for the countless lives and civilizations they destroyed


That is just my take on it


P.S. wasn't much of a response. Just me furthering the thought on their "freewill"

Modifié par ghost9191, 01 novembre 2013 - 05:16 .

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...
If we'd actually seen anything from the Reapers that remotely resembled the potential thought processes or actions of a self-aware, independent species it might have been different.

We don't.  The conversations with Sovereign, Harbinger, the Rannoch Destroyer... all we get is remorseless, relentless, uncaring, unfeeling, single minded purpose.  They cannot be reasoned with.  They cannot be bargained with.  They are our end.  Our salvation through destruction.

I don't see any contradiction between being a self-aware independent species and that species being relentless, uncaring, and unfeeling towards "lesser" forms of life. Humans do that all the time.

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
I don't see any contradiction between being a self-aware independent species and that species being relentless, uncaring, and unfeeling towards "lesser" forms of life. Humans do that all the time.

Do ALL humans act that way, ALL the time?  I think not.  We (as a race) attempt to preserve and protect the environment and individual species.  Hell, there's even been a fierce debate as to whether smallpox should be destroyed outright.

ALL Reapers act that way, ALL the time.  No emotional responses (other than pride and maybe hatred and anger).  No dissenting voices in the midst of this wholesale slaughter.  No questioning of their purpose, and absolutely no mercy.

There's your contradiction.

[AlanC9]

You don't have the evidence to back up your conclusion. We talk to exactly three Reapers over the course of the series. Two of them are highly placed in the harvesting enterprise, and one has just been mortally wounded in the course of it. We never hear any conversation between one Reaper and another.

What would a cow in a slaughterhouse know of humans? (The old-fashioned kind, where they know what's coming.)

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 novembre 2013 - 05:44 .

[ghost9191]

AlanC9 wrote...

You don't have the evidence to back up your conclusion. We talk to exactly three Reapers over the course of the series. Two of them are highly placed in the harvesting enterprise, and one has just been mortally wounded in the course of it. We never hear any conversation between one Reaper and another.

What would a cow in a slaughterhouse know of humans? (The old-fashioned kind, where they know what's coming.)

so the reapers that we do talk to, all say the samething. But let's just ignore that, because that isn't evidence. Whereas, humans don't all think the same, we know that, but that isn't evidence. so the cow is right, all humans everywhere are responsible for the slaughter house. Kinda like all reapers are ( this is true, not sarcasm ) responsible for the harvest

[Obadiah]

That whole speech the Catalyst gives about the Reapers is like a proud father talking about his children. In as much as children are "brainwashed" by parents, I assume the Reapers do their job willingly and apparently with pride.

I figure with Synthesis they are convinced or forced by the Catalyst to work with Organics.

[SwobyJ]

Obadiah wrote...

That whole speech the Catalyst gives about the Reapers is like a proud father talking about his children. In as much as children are "brainwashed" by parents, I assume the Reapers do their job willingly and apparently with pride.

I figure with Synthesis they are convinced or forced by the Catalyst to work with Organics.

Honestly reminds me of if Glyph was given Reaper code and a snotty attitude.

[SwobyJ]

The Reapers are not innocent. Damn, they're not innocent at all!!

Heck, even when I cure the Genophage I don't stop feeling wary about the Krogan, or when I bring Rannoch Peace, I don't stop being wary about the Geth.

Synthesis is essentially, at least seemingly, "Ok, we put down arms for now, we see there's a bigger picture together, but we don't know how long this'll last." I know EDI's words and I still don't see otherwise. The Reapers no longer (seemingly again) have their function, and they do 'understand' (vague here) organics more, but they're also more tied to them so if a Reaper does go nuts, it could be far far far more dangerous then anything seen before.

[ghost9191]

SwobyJ wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

That whole speech the Catalyst gives about the Reapers is like a proud father talking about his children. In as much as children are "brainwashed" by parents, I assume the Reapers do their job willingly and apparently with pride.

I figure with Synthesis they are convinced or forced by the Catalyst to work with Organics.

Honestly reminds me of if Glyph was given Reaper code and a snotty attitude.

would have been nice to have. KInda off topic lol but i would have liked to recruit the renegade shepard vi .

[AlexMBrennan]

We (as a race) attempt to preserve and protect the environment and individual species. Hell, there's even been a fierce debate as to whether smallpox should be destroyed outright.

I doubt that chicken in a battery farm would feel much different about us then the people of ME feel about the Reapers.

[ghost9191]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

We (as a race) attempt to preserve and protect the environment and individual species. Hell, there's even been a fierce debate as to whether smallpox should be destroyed outright.

I doubt that chicken in a battery farm would feel much different about us then the people of ME feel about the Reapers.

because clearly humans are trying to wipe out the chicken population. they clearly don't number over 20 billion

but it is bad, however there are those that try to stop it

Modifié par ghost9191, 01 novembre 2013 - 07:16 .

[KotorEffect3]

Haha my current Shepard who is an engineer is going to pick synthesis.

[SwobyJ]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Haha my current Shepard who is an engineer is going to pick synthesis.

My Adept or Sentinel may.

[KotorEffect3]

SwobyJ wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Haha my current Shepard who is an engineer is going to pick synthesis.

My Adept or Sentinel may.

Yep my vanguards like to destroy, engineers and sentinels like synthesis, adepts like control, soldiers like control or destroy, and infiltrators like control or destroy.

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
You don't have the evidence to back up your conclusion. We talk to exactly three Reapers over the course of the series. Two of them are highly placed in the harvesting enterprise, and one has just been mortally wounded in the course of it. We never hear any conversation between one Reaper and another.

What would a cow in a slaughterhouse know of humans? (The old-fashioned kind, where they know what's coming.)

Tells me I have no evidence to back up my conclusions.  Then provides evidence that backs up my conclusions. Seems legit.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed.  Not every human works in a slaughterhouse, and not every human-reared chicken lives on a battery farm or ends up facing the butcher's knife.

Every single Reaper we encounter over the course of the game is attempting to systematically exterminate advanced organic life.  There's no exceptions.  Show me an example of a Reaper performing an act of compassion or mercy and then - maybe - you'll have an argument worth discussing further.

[Iakus]

ghost9191 wrote...

because clearly humans are trying to wipe out the chicken population. they clearly don't number over 20 billion

but it is bad, however there are those that try to stop it

So if throw some on a grill, I should say "Prepare these chickens for ascension"? 

[K_O_513]

Joker performs synthesis every Tuesday night and sometimes on Wednesday.

[Obadiah]

@ElSuperGecko
Yeah, but, as was mentioned earlier, we still only spoke to three of them. You don't know if any of them are having second thoughts.

Modifié par Obadiah, 02 novembre 2013 - 12:26 .