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[Reorte]

Obadiah wrote...

@ElSuperGecko
Yeah, but, as was mentioned earlier, we still only spoke to three of them. You don't know if any of them are having second thoughts.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that they are.

[Iakus]

Obadiah wrote...

@ElSuperGecko
Yeah, but, as was mentioned earlier, we still only spoke to three of them. You don't know if any of them are having second thoughts.

Given the Catalyst is the controlling intelligence for all the Reapers, it leads one to wonder if they are sentient at all, or are really just super-sized husks.

[Obadiah]

Reorte wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@ElSuperGecko
Yeah, but, as was mentioned earlier, we still only spoke to three of them. You don't know if any of them are having second thoughts.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that they are.

Nothing except common sense. There are thousands of Reapers - maybe hundres of thousands. They have some form of conversation amongst themselves, as the Rannoch Reaper indicated, so they aren't all of one unified mind. Why would you assume they all thought the same thing?

Modifié par Obadiah, 02 novembre 2013 - 12:36 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Obadiah wrote...

That whole speech the Catalyst gives about the Reapers is like a proud father talking about his children. In as much as children are "brainwashed" by parents, I assume the Reapers do their job willingly and apparently with pride.

I think it's much, much more extreme than that.

Starbrat proclaims to control the Reapers, and then also refers to their indoctrination of TIM as "control."

If those things are indeed one-in-the-same, then it means we haven't really seen the true nature of a Reaper. Now, TIM had not yet given himself over to them completely, but others have been seen to do a complete 180 of their beliefs under this form of control. Look at Kenson: working feverishly to halt the Reapers' progress... only to become one of their lackeys.

[Teddie Sage]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

That whole speech the Catalyst gives about the Reapers is like a proud father talking about his children. In as much as children are "brainwashed" by parents, I assume the Reapers do their job willingly and apparently with pride.

I think it's much, much more extreme than that.

Starbrat proclaims to control the Reapers, and then also refers to their indoctrination of TIM as "control."

If those things are indeed one-in-the-same, then it means we haven't really seen the true nature of a Reaper. Now, TIM had not yet given himself over to them completely, but others have been seen to do a complete 180 of their beliefs under this form of control. Look at Kenson: working feverishly to halt the Reapers' progress... only to become one of their lackeys.

I nearly forgot about the Arrival DLC's relevance/irrelevance to the plot of Mass Effect 3...

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 02 novembre 2013 - 01:39 .

[Deathsaurer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I think it's much, much more extreme than that.

Starbrat proclaims to control the Reapers, and then also refers to their indoctrination of TIM as "control."

If those things are indeed one-in-the-same, then it means we haven't really seen the true nature of a Reaper. Now, TIM had not yet given himself over to them completely, but others have been seen to do a complete 180 of their beliefs under this form of control. Look at Kenson: working feverishly to halt the Reapers' progress... only to become one of their lackeys.0

I don't think it's anything that complicated. They are simply what they were programmed to be. True believers. It shapes their minds, molds them into what they are. They never got to choose what they wanted to be but they don't really seem to care about that. They're free to use whatever methods they want so long as it works towards the goal. Some really get into their jobs (Harbinger) some are far more by the book (Sovereign).

[Obadiah]

@HYR 2.0
Sure, but it says a lot of things in addition to "control" like, "embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers."

I mean, there's clearly more the relationship than "they do what I say" - there's something there along the lines of the Geth collective being spread out and reincorporated.

[Deathsaurer]

The fact that it constantly uses the terms "we" and "us" is quite telling.

[Deathsaurer]

Harbinger has a clearly distinct personality from Sovereign. Harbinger was really, really eccentric. Part of that was the psychological warfare aspect, sure, but Harbinger really got into that. I'll give you they're pre programmed but I wouldn't exactly call it indoctrination unless you think the Geth do the same every time they write a new runtime. The gestalt personality is an AI, even the Catalyst considers them synthetics regardless what they're made from. If we take this to its logical extreme then the Catalyst was indoctrinated by the Leviathans because it believes what they programmed it to believe even if its methods aren't what they expected. So the question is how does programming an AI actually work?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Deathsaurer wrote...


I don't think it's anything that complicated. They are simply what they were programmed to be. True believers. It shapes their minds, molds them into what they are. They never got to choose what they wanted to be but they don't really seem to care about that. They're free to use whatever methods they want so long as it works towards the goal. Some really get into their jobs (Harbinger) some are far more by the book (Sovereign).

Control (the EC ending) would prove that wrong. If they were programmed at "birth" to follow the Catalyst's set directive and become true believers [sic] of that, they wouldn't be able to switch gears to something entirely different. The only thing the Reapers are programmed to do is whatever the Catalyst wants them to do -- which, apparently, is quite flexible.

Now, suppose the Catalyst's control were removed, that's where things would become really interesting...

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 02 novembre 2013 - 02:31 .

[Iakus]

StreetMagic wrote...

I figured their personalities are no more unique than a single indoctrinated slave (like Kenson). They might be autonomous in some way, but spew out the same lines as any other Reaper. Or what I mean is, I think the Reaper mindset itself is heavily subject to an indoctrination process in it's creation. They don't just indoctrinate things - they are indoctrinated themselves.

As the Derelict Reaper in ME2 shows us indoctrinated individuals start sharing each others memories, to the point where they can't tell who's memories belong to whom.  Individuality becomes eroded to the point of meaninglessnes.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it"

[Deathsaurer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Control (the EC ending) would prove that wrong. If they were programmed at "birth" to follow the Catalyst's set directive and become true believers [sic] of that, they wouldn't be able to switch gears to something entirely different. The only thing the Reapers are programmed to do is whatever the Catalyst wants them to do -- which, apparently, is quite flexible.

Now, suppose the Catalyst's control were removed, that's where things would become really interesting...

How does it disprove it? The Catalyst okayed it and the goal hasn't change, only the methods. The Rannoch slides with the Reapers seperating the Geth and Quarians reinforce this.

iakus wrote...


As the Derelict Reaper in ME2 shows us
indoctrinated individuals start sharing each others memories, to the
point where they can't tell who's memories belong to whom.
 Individuality becomes eroded to the point of meaninglessnes.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it"

I am Sovereign

I am/we are Harbinger

Harbinger speaks of you

erm...

Modifié par Deathsaurer, 02 novembre 2013 - 02:39 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Deathsaurer wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Control (the EC ending) would prove that wrong. If they were programmed at "birth" to follow the Catalyst's set directive and become true believers [sic] of that, they wouldn't be able to switch gears to something entirely different. The only thing the Reapers are programmed to do is whatever the Catalyst wants them to do -- which, apparently, is quite flexible.

Now, suppose the Catalyst's control were removed, that's where things would become really interesting...

How does it disprove it? The Catalyst okayed it and the goal hasn't change, only the methods. The Rannoch slides with the Reapers seperating the Geth and Quarians reinforce this.

... the goal hasn't changed? Really?? 

And no, the geth and quarians' split reinforces absolutely nothing; just because the Reapers are seen with the geth doesn't mean they caused any divide (that slide exists in the Sync epilogue if the quarians were killed over Rannoch).

[Deathsaurer]

No the goal hasn't changed. They're still preserving life. The harvest isn't the only method to do so. They're literally standing there between the Geth and Quarians in those slides. The message is play nice or else.

[ghost9191]

iakus wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

because clearly humans are trying to wipe out the chicken population. they clearly don't number over 20 billion

but it is bad, however there are those that try to stop it

So if throw some on a grill, I should say "Prepare these chickens for ascension"? 

not sure if it would be called "ascension" but why not. it would be funny at least

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Deathsaurer wrote...

No the goal hasn't changed. They're still preserving life. The harvest isn't the only method to do so. They're literally standing there between the Geth and Quarians in those slides. The message is play nice or else.

No they aren't. They're standing with the geth, nothing more. They're there in that exact same position if the quarians are dead, Control or Sync, where no such action would be necessary.

If "play nice or else" was just as good as harvesting, why weren't they doing it before?

[SwobyJ]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

That whole speech the Catalyst gives about the Reapers is like a proud father talking about his children. In as much as children are "brainwashed" by parents, I assume the Reapers do their job willingly and apparently with pride.

I think it's much, much more extreme than that.

Starbrat proclaims to control the Reapers, and then also refers to their indoctrination of TIM as "control."

If those things are indeed one-in-the-same, then it means we haven't really seen the true nature of a Reaper. Now, TIM had not yet given himself over to them completely, but others have been seen to do a complete 180 of their beliefs under this form of control. Look at Kenson: working feverishly to halt the Reapers' progress... only to become one of their lackeys.

I tend to think 'Control' is something similar to what you seem to be getting at. "My tech is in them, they're using strategies I can predict, and I can have openings into stopping them if they seem to get out of hand. Thus, I control them."

Typically, so far it seems the Reaper methods of control are: indoctrination, and tech line herding of civilizations. I tend to think of the Reapers as husks... PLUS geth consensus. They have a wealth of great stuff inside them, and possibly whole trillions of 'people' (for all we know as 'preservation', but maybe just genetic data), but they're also all in an indoctrinated framework that Shepard will need to set free one way or another. Either by providing new purpose (Control), letting them loose and in seeming partnership with organics (Synthesis), or letting them 'R.I.P.'/die in punishment (Destroy)

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

I figured their personalities are no more unique than a single indoctrinated slave (like Kenson). They might be autonomous in some way, but spew out the same lines as any other Reaper. Or what I mean is, I think the Reaper mindset itself is heavily subject to an indoctrination process in it's creation. They don't just indoctrinate things - they are indoctrinated themselves.

Akin to the Markers in Dead Space. They're not 'power sources'/'free thinkers' themselves, but they contain and further transmit outwards a signal from elsewhere...

Not a perfect example, but I see several similarities here.

And yes, it complicates matters if you wish it too.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 02 novembre 2013 - 04:00 .

[SwobyJ]

Deathsaurer wrote...

Harbinger has a clearly distinct personality from Sovereign. Harbinger was really, really eccentric. Part of that was the psychological warfare aspect, sure, but Harbinger really got into that. I'll give you they're pre programmed but I wouldn't exactly call it indoctrination unless you think the Geth do the same every time they write a new runtime. The gestalt personality is an AI, even the Catalyst considers them synthetics regardless what they're made from. If we take this to its logical extreme then the Catalyst was indoctrinated by the Leviathans because it believes what they programmed it to believe even if its methods aren't what they expected. So the question is how does programming an AI actually work?

Not sure.

But yes, this would make the Leviathans, while currently seemingly super weaker and hiding, the ultimate evil people here. They tried to squeeze more control out of their realm, got burned, and are in an alliance of necessity (but maybe more) with Shepard to take down their rogue AI that has killed trillions by now.

But of course, to them, it was only a major setback (Super Cerberus) and they'll move forward and attempt to use a Cycle for their own gain.
And yes, they want the Reapers as their utter slaves - not even loyal and controlled subjects.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 02 novembre 2013 - 04:07 .

[AlanC9]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Control (the EC ending) would prove that wrong. If they were programmed at "birth" to follow the Catalyst's set directive and become true believers [sic] of that, they wouldn't be able to switch gears to something entirely different. The only thing the Reapers are programmed to do is whatever the Catalyst wants them to do -- which, apparently, is quite flexible.

This probably takes the form of a sort of imprint at creation, rather than continuously being receptive to orders from the Catalyst. Otherwise you wouldn't need to propagate anything in Control. This also gets around the infamous "why couldn't the Catalyst offer a ceasefire" problem.

@ElSuperGecko: if something like this is all you were arguing, we don't have a real disagreement. I think that Reapers have individuality, but only within constraints.