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[SwobyJ]

Br3ad wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Fishstick wrote...

Glorious?
Grand Theft Auto V ending C was glorious.
Mass Effect 3 ending insults it's previous themes and makes anyone who understands basic storytelling and science laugh, cry or cringe. Maybe all of the above.

I laughed, cried, and cringed, but for totally different reasons.

Once it comes into view, you'll do so as well.

Oh, it's another one of those, "You don't get it," types. That's exactly what BSN needs. 

You don't. And I don't *know* if I get it, but I think I do.

I'm not being condesending. It honestly takes all 3 games + almost all DLC + even some expanded universe stuff to even start to 'get it', and even then.... 0_0

Don't take me for someone who likes HOW the implemented the endings. For the ending of a trilogy, their approach was all wrong.

But yes, imo there is a VERY good goal behind it, and it'll only add layers of texture and refinement to the entire Mass Effect universe.

Bioware's issue is that they wanted speculations, but didn't put focus on simply ending the series well for those who don't give a damn about speculating and just want their damn heroic war story, you know, like ME3 was even SOLD to them.

But the story, and yesss, art, has a lot of integrity and I'd almost outright applaud their efforts in growing Mass Effect, instead of being mired in the same stuff over and over.

[SwobyJ]

Hint: Look into every bit of scrap of information you can find on Indoctrination and what it does. Derelict Reaper and Leviathan DLC are nearly crucial for this, but so are scattered lines throughout the games - hell, even in Citadel and Omega DLC.

No, this isn't IT. IT is only a perspective, and it works enough just as an outright literal view does (it's all good to Bioware I think - and they all apply).

Modifié par SwobyJ, 29 octobre 2013 - 03:53 .

[SwobyJ]

Fishstick wrote...

You know, I could argue with you over what may or may not be in regards to ME3's ending. But I can say that the fact that an Extended Cut had to be made tells me everything I needed to know about how bad the ending was. It does not matter how excellently written everything else was but if the ending does not wrap up every or almost every major question along with answering a good handful of smaller questions, then the entire experience takes a nose dive.

I actually largely agree, and especially agree regardling Extended Cut. The writing for the ending, imo, is more written to bridge into future-concepts for the franchise instead of address ME3 as a conclusion in itself.

Because so many people focus on the destination instead of, or more than the journey, Bioware made a big miscalculation and probably would have been better in taking even more time to end the trilogy properly.

I'm just saying the whole situation about Mass Effect isn't remotely doom and gloom. Whatever fan rage people had, wasn't enough to bring down Bioware and change their course. We'll see in 2014-2015 whether this is a good or bad thing, but with what I've considered, I really think it'll be a good thing.

Shepard: How were you initiated?
Bakara: You're locked in a cave for seven days with just enough food to last. On the eight, you'll starve.
Shepard: What does that prove?
Bakara: Your resolve. Every acolyte is given a chance: you either claw your way out through the rock with your bare hands, or you die.
Shepard: How did you make it out alive?
Bakara: I started digging the wrong way. I was in complete darkness. Nothing other than my own heartbeat to sustain me.
Shepard: What happened?
Bakara: I found this. A simple crystal. But it became my chisel. Take it as a reminder, Commander. In the darkest hour, there is always a way out.
Shepard: That's a brutal initiation.
Bakara: But an illuminating one. You learn to appreciate the light by living in the dark.

[SwobyJ]

Fishstick wrote...

Fine, at the very least your optimistic and I can respect that. And I do hope that the next game will be good, but please understand if I am much more cautious about buying it at full price or pre-ordering it.

I won't be preordering the next game unless they show significant and probably pretty specific things, pre launch.

I won't be getting the Collector's Edition unelss I'm absolutely sure.

If they keep up this obfuscation tactic that I think they're doing, I won't be interested in either.


But yes, back on topic - Synthesis is fine, but it's deliberately inferior in many ways to Destroy. However, it's superior in a few, and has high prospect for a great story

[Dubozz]

Synthesis is an abomination and ****ty space magic.

[AlanC9]

Wow. This thread makes me feel like I've gone back in time.

[AlanC9]

ginner dave wrote...
. During the synthesis epilogue everyone looked miserable and confused, except EDI. Why the hell is every organic miserable and confused while the one robot we know is somehow happy with the decision you made everyone half robot? 

Dude, you're either projecting or outright lying. Bio didn't make anyone look miserable and confused in the synthesis ending. It's mostly the same slides as in the other endings, just with some VFX on top. Same for the cutscenes.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Here's the speculation: there is no time window given on how long it will take to rebuild anything. The slides make it look like it will take a few months. Ask the people of New Orleans how long it took to rebuild after Katrina. Better yet, ask the people of Dresden, Germany how long it took to rebuild Dresden. Imagine worlds like that, and to rediscover the technology once taken for granted. There are sacrifices with destroy - Geth, The race of Virtual Aliens that you never met, all AIs in the galaxy.

The Reapers leaving were symbolic that the fighting was over. Bioware was trying to explain a very complex subject (synthesis) in a few minutes and reduced it to the lowest common denominator and threw in mysticism. This to me failed, but the ending still works. The circuit boards are part of the lowest common denominator eyeroll.

The thing about the reapers not repairing the relays in the synthesis ending is that we didn't need them to do that. When they shared their knowledge we knew how to do that ourselves. It shows them helping rebuild our worlds. We could network together now if we chose to do so. It's a new future. I think this is my preferred ending now.

Control? Well this one looked fine until the EC turned it into either a benevolent or totalitarian police state. No you can't fly the reapers into the sun anymore. You have to watch over the galaxy and be big brother or big sister and make sure about those synthetics.

Which ending is the best? Are you speculating?

They are basically the exact same endings except for the color of the explosions on your screen: you die, the relays explode, and the Normandy crashes. The difference in the EC is that you get pretty much the exact same slides with a different epilogue speech.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:01 .

[Massa FX]

From OP:

WTF! Synthesis is disgusting

From MassaFX:

Agreed.

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Here's the speculation: there is no time window given on how long it will take to rebuild anything. The slides make it look like it will take a few months.

They do? Wow -- the things I learn just hanging around here.

Control? Well this one looked fine until the EC turned it into either a benevolent or totalitarian police state. No you can't fly the reapers into the sun anymore. 

I never really understood the point of doing that. If you can make them fly into the sun, actually doing so is pointless destruction.

[CronoDragoon]

AlanC9 wrote...

I never really understood the point of doing that. If you can make them fly into the sun, actually doing so is pointless destruction.

I don't think the issue was ever the Shepalyst's control over the Reapers, but rather the possibility of a logical conclusion it eventually makes similar to the Catalyst's that causes catastrophe. Obviously we don't know enough about the process to know if that should be a worry, but it's equally valid for a player to worry about that as not, and if they do worry about that, flying the Reapers into the sun before it happens is a more utilitarian ending than Destroy.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Here's the speculation: there is no time window given on how long it will take to rebuild anything. The slides make it look like it will take a few months.

They do? Wow -- the things I learn just hanging around here.

Control? Well this one looked fine until the EC turned it into either a benevolent or totalitarian police state. No you can't fly the reapers into the sun anymore. 

I never really understood the point of doing that. If you can make them fly into the sun, actually doing so is pointless destruction.

Alan, I'm surprised at you. You didn't learn that about the destroy slides a long time ago? It's people's head canon. They could also make it look like everything is fine overnight.  

And some people wanted to Control the reapers to do the ultimate paragon thing and fly them into the sun in order to save the geth. But the Bioware gods saw that on the forums... and you thought they didn't read them... and they changed it to a police state. 

[liggy002]

ginner dave wrote...

 Right, so I just finished a default paragon femshep play through. I picked synthesis for the first time, and what the ****?
If the space magic beam suddenly makes everyone equal then why are the reapers buggering off like they have somewhere to go (instead of starting repairs on the billion years worth of murder and destruction they've inflicted on the galaxy). 

In the destroy ending the races of the galaxy celebrate defeating the reapers, synthesis ending they inspect their own persons like something is wrong! 'Holy **** my nuckles are glowing' 
EDI. During the synthesis epilogue everyone looked miserable and confused, except EDI. Why the hell is every organic miserable and confused while the one robot we know is somehow happy with the decision you made everyone half robot?
This is supposed to make any kind of sense? 

No, it doesn't make any sense.  Imagine how funny I found it when I found out that this ending was meant to be taken literally.

[AlanC9]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I never really understood the point of doing that. If you can make them fly into the sun, actually doing so is pointless destruction.

I don't think the issue was ever the Shepalyst's control over the Reapers, but rather the possibility of a logical conclusion it eventually makes similar to the Catalyst's that causes catastrophe. Obviously we don't know enough about the process to know if that should be a worry, but it's equally valid for a player to worry about that as not, and if they do worry about that, flying the Reapers into the sun before it happens is a more utilitarian ending than Destroy.

Hmm... OK. But if a player's willing to commit genocide to prevent a hypothetical catastrophe, why isn't he picking Destroy in the first place? 

(Yeah, I know ... genocide of people you don't like is cool)

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:21 .

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


Alan, I'm surprised at you. You didn't learn that about the destroy slides a long time ago? It's people's head canon. They could also make it look like everything is fine overnight.  

You got me there . While I often mock other people's headcanon, I often don't bother to remember it.

[RustyLH]

The synthesis ending allows for something the others do not. In the Destruction ending, it is screwed up because if you notice, everything made of tech gets destroyed. Is that fact lost on everyone? The only good aspect to it is that it appears Shepard lives at the end, but then, it's just alluded to when it appears to be him and he takes a sharp intake of breath. But if you pay attention, everything made of tech gets destroyed. Watch as the fireball reaches the Alliance ships and they explode. Notice that EDI does not exit the Normandy, and the Normandy itself is FUBAR. No reference to the Geth is made in the part about the future. And in fact, the whole future part is out of whack because this "wave/explosion was supposed to be transmitted throughout the entire galaxy to destroy all Reapers, and it was destroying Allied ships...so how is it that any of the fleet survives? Totally stupid writing in this ending.

Control was kind of cool. Everyone gets to live, EDI, Geth, etc...and Shepard becomes immortal...part of the Catalyst, if you will. And yet it still felt empty.

The refusal ending was depressing, but at least we got to see Liara's message to the future cycle. This is one that would allow for a future, totally different Mass Effect game. The only thing that would be the same would be the relays and Citadel. They could however, have it such that the Reapers discover that there is a primitive human settlement someplace. Maybe some type of hippie group that paid to be sent to a world where they would then reject all manner of technology and live primitively. Harbinger decides to allow them to live, hoping that they would again evolve into the apex race and provide more human goo for more human reapers. So the game would start with the discovery of that recoding, and that recording would drastically accelerate the advancement of technology, but the new cycle would know about the dangers of the Citadel, and would not use it for the same purpose as the previous cycles. It would in fact be used as a trap. The only thing going on there would be that it the people living there would be dedicated to learning how to control it, learn all of its secrets.

Anyway, the Synthesis ending offers something the others don't...the Geth and Edi get to live, and also this provides for a good ending for Joker since it now makes sense for him to have a relationship with EDI.

The real problem is that there is no option at all for a total victory. Sorry, but many people would have loved to see an ending where Shepard is seen with his love interest and a child. In fact, that ending with the child asking questions should have had the option of being Shepard and his child, and the child asks him to tell another story about the war, or one of the dead characters, like Mordin.

[RustyLH]

Oh, and the real problem with the endings is that, as has been repeated many times, nothing you do in the three games has any real affect on the outcome.

[shodiswe]

RustyLH wrote...

Oh, and the real problem with the endings is that, as has been repeated many times, nothing you do in the three games has any real affect on the outcome.

It has no effect because synthesis is inevitable...

[Deverz]

A Synthesis hate thread? Yeah, I'll bite.

Synthesis is submission. The destruction of the mass relays are supposed to show that the galaxy breaks free from the Reaper's control of steering the galaxy's growth. Ironically it is only replaced by an even bigger way of controlling their crops, homogenization. Synthesis is submitting to the malevolent god and admitting you're useless the way you are. You need to change, or your destruction is inevitable. Be a good little boy and appease the Reaper king. Saren was right, y'all.

[Eryri]

Synthesis remains one of the primary motivations for my affection for the "Theory That Must Not Be Named".

The notion that a wave of energy could instantaneously imprint circuitry into every single living thing within thousands of cubic light-years of space, using a machine cobbled together with spare parts, reaper gizzards, duct-tape and hope by people with only a vague notion of how it would work...

Frankly it stretches my capacity to suspend disbelief far beyond its breaking point, not that it hadn't already taken a battering with the Lazarus Project and the idea that liquidized human goo can somehow retain memories and personality.

Then of course you have the issue with it contradicting the spirit of the rest of the game - that mutual respect and tolerance is possible with a bit of old fashioned understanding and empathy. Apparently the peace we were able to achieve on Rannoch wasn't good enough. The only way to achieve peace between different cultures is through something close to divine intervention. Since this is somewhat hard to find in the real world, it's a rather depressing message.

That is why I would much rather write off synthesis as all being a dream / hallucination / virtual simulation / whatever. If Bioware uses Iakus' suggestion, and writes off Shepard's adventures as a work of fiction within the ME universe then, even though I don't like that idea very much, I would actually find it easier to accept than a post-Synthesis setting. I don't particularly want to play in a universe where Synthesis, as presented, was even a possibility. It's no longer even soft science fiction. It's fantasy, and poor fantasy at that.

Modifié par Eryri, 29 octobre 2013 - 12:19 .

[Navasha]

My guess is that the three endings were given so that they (individually) might appeal to a much wider audience depending on peoples own interpretations and ethics.

For me, I will likely always pick destroy. To me its the only option that really feels like you beat the Reapers. Sure, half the galaxy is destroyed, but you beat them. You were victorious in finally defeating the scourge that plagued the galaxy for BILLIONS of years. There is hope at least that when everything is finally rebuilt, that the new races of the galaxy are for the first time free to choose their own future.

Control to me is for those people that see themselves as rulers or gods. Whether benevolent or malicious, they believe that they could rule the galaxy and the races of the galaxy would be better in their care. That just isn't me in anyway. For me, I believe in absolute power corrupting absolutely. No matter how benevolent you think you might be, power will eventually be abused and that reaper fleet is just hanging around waiting for that moment when Shep-AI is fed up with how the galaxy is behaving.

Synthesis is just wrong on a moral level to me. To choose systhesis, people must basically abandon everything they have been trying to accomplish and suddenly agree with reapers that AI is the most dangerous thing facing life in the galaxy, despite having nurtured EDI into a "good" person and despite having successfully negotiated peace with the GETH. Now you must believe suddenly out of no where that AI is still dangerous and you must forcefully re-write and change all life in the galaxy against their will. It tries to sound like suddenly synthesis brings total peace to the galaxy, which to me means that their must be a major brainwashing effect as well, since the galaxy has never known peace regardless of whether AIs are a threat or not.

My recommendation, choose whichever ending you can find acceptable and just simply disregard the rest as even an option. They are there to appeal to different types of people with different types of outlooks.

[Xilizhra]

ginner dave wrote...

 Right, so I just finished a default paragon femshep play through. I picked synthesis for the first time, and what the ****?
If the space magic beam suddenly makes everyone equal then why are the reapers buggering off like they have somewhere to go (instead of starting repairs on the billion years worth of murder and destruction they've inflicted on the galaxy). 

In the destroy ending the races of the galaxy celebrate defeating the reapers, synthesis ending they inspect their own persons like something is wrong! 'Holy **** my nuckles are glowing' 
EDI. During the synthesis epilogue everyone looked miserable and confused, except EDI. Why the hell is every organic miserable and confused while the one robot we know is somehow happy with the decision you made everyone half robot?
This is supposed to make any kind of sense? 

The Reapers didn't leave and are helping fix things.

Synthesis is a fairly significant change that will surprise people, but that doesn't make it not a victory.

Synthesis is just wrong on a moral level to me. To choose systhesis,
people must basically abandon everything they have been trying to
accomplish and suddenly agree with reapers that AI is the most dangerous
thing facing life in the galaxy, despite having nurtured EDI into a
"good" person and despite having successfully negotiated peace with the
GETH. Now you must believe suddenly out of no where that AI is still
dangerous and you must forcefully re-write and change all life in the
galaxy against their will. It tries to sound like suddenly synthesis
brings total peace to the galaxy, which to me means that their must be a
major brainwashing effect as well, since the galaxy has never known
peace regardless of whether AIs are a threat or not.

Still miles better than genocide; whether it's better than Control is admittedly arguable, but at least everyone is sure to be free in Synthesis.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 01:37 .

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Synthesis is a fairly significant change that will surprise people, but that doesn't make it not a victory.

The concept that everyone's DNA has to be forcibly rewritten to conform to some kind of "master race" ideal, is, though.

[Vigilant111]

Xilizhra wrote...

Still miles better than genocide; whether it's better than Control is admittedly arguable, but at least everyone is sure to be free in Synthesis.

Free from what?