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WTF! Synthesis is disgusting


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#51
Xilizhra

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iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Synthesis is a fairly significant change that will surprise people, but that doesn't make it not a victory.


The concept that everyone's DNA has to be forcibly rewritten to conform to some kind of "master race" ideal, is, though.

"Master race" is a fallacious term in this case, as no one's DNA is any more identical than it was before (which is, by and large, already mostly identical; DNA's very adaptable). Each species may gain characteristics like being able to more easily interface with technology, but it does not put one species above any other in capability, nor does it propose that this is the case.

Free from what?

Well, many objected in arguments against Control to Shepard's reign existing.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 01:49 .


#52
3DandBeyond

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caradoc2000 wrote...

ginner dave wrote...

If the space magic beam suddenly makes everyone equal then why are the reapers buggering off like they have somewhere to go (instead of starting repairs on the billion years worth of murder and destruction they've inflicted on the galaxy).

Not murder. They brought order into chaos. did you not listen to the space kid?


Ha ha, yeah all those dead bodies are just organic shells whose minds have outlived them and now exist either as well nothing, because for many dead is dead, or within a reaper shell which really sounds like something every single one of us here would wish for once our bodies can no longer support our life.  See, thing is the one thing this set of endings does make me think of is exactly what is life and what is life worth living.

Read "Johnny Got His Gun".

http://en.wikipedia....nny_Got_His_Gun

Beyond that the space kid has no real concept of life and death (or so I've been told constantly by other people), so he's not the best authority on whether or not he's been murdering people---OR he knows darn well what death is and knows he has been murdering people.  One way he's plain stupid and the other way he's stupid and lying.  I choose lying because Sovereign and Harbinger both took pleasure in hurting and destroying organic life, and the kid even said he had to destroy his creators.  Even an idiot like him would know what destroy means.

Beyond that Synthesis is pretty idiotic.  People will say it doesn't fundamentally change people or take away free will or some such.  What then does it do?  It instantly inserts tech into all organic life in the galaxy including daisies, puppies, fishies, and worms that integrates with organic DNA-to do what?  It imparts all this knowledge (so learning is unnecessary) from who?  From whose point of view?  If it's totally scientific then that's likely to ****** off fundamental creationists (some won't care about this) or those that don't believe science can answer everything.  I'm skeptical of any knowledge that comes from those that created the crucible and these choices-I don't want their flawed knowledge in my DNA.  Does it also fix people medically?  EDI implies that it does.  Great, immortality or something approaching it.  Glad the Rachni and Krogan are not prolific breeders.  Or how about rabbits?  Roaches?  I see no problem with any of this.

Synthetics get a full understanding of organics.  Great.  Organics no longer exist.  Hybrids do and they either are or are not the same as organics.  It seems they are not because organics don't have instant knowledge of everything or tech in their DNA.  The tech must do something and if it does anything then it removes adaptation (natural adaptation), random mutation, orderly evolution, and change unless it's allowed by the tech.  If it does not do this, something I'd not want to have tech do, then it really does nothing, so again why do it?  Just so we can have green eyed reaper buddies?  And great, now all those used to be people, horrid aberrations created by reapers-husks, banshees, brutes, marauders, and so on also have green eyes.  I guess Bob the Husk will be joining us as we car pool to work.  So what if his wife and kids no longer recognize him.  Perhaps that tech-DNA will help them not care.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 octobre 2013 - 02:27 .


#53
Xilizhra

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Beyond that Synthesis is pretty idiotic. People will say it doesn't fundamentally change people or take away free will or some such. What then does it do? It instantly inserts tech into all organic life in the galaxy including daisies, puppies, fishies, and worms that integrates with organic DNA-to do what? It imparts all this knowledge (so learning is unnecessary) from who? From whose point of view? If it's totally scientific then that's likely to ****** off fundamental creationists. Does it also fix people medically? EDI implies that it does. Great, immortality or something approaching it. Glad the Rachni and Krogan are not prolific breeders. Or how about rabbits? Roaches? I see no problem with any of this.

If you're that confident about it inserting "tech," kindly explain exactly what it does?

I also think that everyone instantly gaining some kind of knowledge is based around a misreading of the ending that refers to the Reapers being able to impart knowledge after being freed.

Synthetics get a full understanding of organics. Great. Organics no longer exist. Hybrids do and they either are or are not the same as organics. It seems they are not because organics don't have instant knowledge of everything or tech in their DNA. The tech must do something and if it does anything then it removes adaptation (natural adaptation), random mutation, orderly evolution, and change unless it's allowed by the tech. If it does not do this, something I'd not want to have tech do, then it really does nothing, so again why do it? Just so we can have green eyed reaper buddies? And great, now all those used to be people, horrid aberrations created by reapers-husks, banshees, brutes, marauders, and so on also have green eyes. I guess Bob the Husk will be joining us as we car pool to work. So what if his wife and kids no longer recognize him. Perhaps that tech-DNA will help them not care.

Assumptions ahoy. I personally suspect that the Synthesis effect, in and of itself, does nothing other than make it easier to integrate with other technology, which could certainly lead to amazing medical advances and the like, but which would not create them out of nowhere.

Also, on why we'd do it... well, of course, many won't see Destroy or Control as desirable; additionally, what you seem to be proposing is that new forms of life made out of organic material previously belonging to other life forms, somehow, do not deserve to live by virtue of their makeup, and that strikes me as being fairly abhorrent in and of itself.

#54
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Synthesis is like Mr. Roger's Neighborhood meets the Borg. It's not quite the nightmarish scenario that the Borg alone are, so I couldn't say it's negative exactly. It might not be negative whatsoever. But still.. it's incredibly silly. As a story device, it goes beyond "jumping the shark". If they were trying to offer a mature, intelligent take on organic/synthetic cooperation, I think they failed. It's childish.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 29 octobre 2013 - 02:32 .


#55
Deverz

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StreetMagic wrote...

Synthesis is like Mr. Roger's Neighborhood meets the Borg. It's not quite the nightmarish scenario that the Borg alone are, so I couldn't say it's negative exactly. It might not be negative whatsoever. But still.. it's incredibly silly. As a story device, it goes beyond "jumping the shark". If they were trying to offer a mature, intelligent take on organic/synthetic cooperation, I think they failed. It's childish.


In other words: SPACE MAGIC! :wizard:

#56
Funkcase

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I think it is a silly ending (I actually like Control and Destroy though) although the Reapers don't go away if you pick Synthesis, they do help rebuild.

I'm not a fan of Synthesis due to the husks, gaining awareness again and being and looking like that must be traumatic.

Modifié par Funkcase, 29 octobre 2013 - 02:35 .


#57
3DandBeyond

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Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Synthesis is a fairly significant change that will surprise people, but that doesn't make it not a victory.


The concept that everyone's DNA has to be forcibly rewritten to conform to some kind of "master race" ideal, is, though.

"Master race" is a fallacious term in this case, as no one's DNA is any more identical than it was before (which is, by and large, already mostly identical; DNA's very adaptable). Each species may gain characteristics like being able to more easily interface with technology, but it does not put one species above any other in capability, nor does it propose that this is the case.

Free from what?

Well, many objected in arguments against Control to Shepard's reign existing.


No with identical tech in everything's DNA, there's a move toward sameness.  The tech does something and would have a standard it would adhere to.  It would seek a certain point as the pinnacle to strive for or else what does it do?  Just as a computer that reads error codes for cars would have a standard on which to base the error, an imperfection, tech DNA would have a basis for error within the organic being that it would have to fix.  What's the purpose of interfacing more easily with tech?  I'd think by that time Apple or some other company would have a pretty good interface created.

And you say it does not put one species above any other in capability, which means sameness.

Also, as it is now I can choose whether or not I want to get an iPad to interface with tech and I've so far decided I don't want one.  I like tablets and all, and prefer having different ways that I can choose that are external, thank you very much.  And the direction tech is headed is in creating it to accept our (organics) normal ways of interfacing with it-getting it to understand our voices or even the nuance of eye movement, rather than getting us to understand it.  If it truly is the created as the kid sees it, then the real emphasis would be on perfecting its ability to communicate with us in a way that all of us would understand rather than changing us to fit more with it.  Synthetics get full understanding but the kid doesn't say they've got a direct line into what organics (that no longer exist) are thinking at all times.  And if the hybridized organics still have free will and individuality then in 6 months that understanding that synthetics have will be outdated and need an upgrade.

#58
Iakus

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Xilizhra wrote...

"Master race" is a fallacious term in this case, as no one's DNA is any more identical than it was before (which is, by and large, already mostly identical; DNA's very adaptable). Each species may gain characteristics like being able to more easily interface with technology, but it does not put one species above any other in capability, nor does it propose that this is the case.


I'm not talking about elevating, say, krogan above teh salarians.  I'm talking about organic life no longer being worthy of existence. The "master race" is now organic/synthetic hybrids, the (LOL) "final evolution of life"

That everyone's DNA is violated identically doesn't make it any less deplorable.

#59
Xilizhra

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No with identical tech in everything's DNA, there's a move toward sameness. The tech does something and would have a standard it would adhere to. It would seek a certain point as the pinnacle to strive for or else what does it do? Just as a computer that reads error codes for cars would have a standard on which to base the error, an imperfection, tech DNA would have a basis for error within the organic being that it would have to fix. What's the purpose of interfacing more easily with tech? I'd think by that time Apple or some other company would have a pretty good interface created.

The tech is almost certainly not intelligent in and of itself. I don't think it's possible to force people towards unity; Synthesis simply gives life the tools to maintain it. And in terms of interfacing, it's as a means of more easily satisfying "Organics seek perfection through technology."

And you say it does not put one species above any other in capability, which means sameness.

Wait, do you want a master race? Because that was the context of that line.

Also, as it is now I can choose whether or not I want to get an iPad to interface with tech and I've so far decided I don't want one. I like tablets and all, and prefer having different ways that I can choose that are external, thank you very much. And the direction tech is headed is in creating it to accept our (organics) normal ways of interfacing with it-getting it to understand our voices or even the nuance of eye movement, rather than getting us to understand it. If it truly is the created as the kid sees it, then the real emphasis would be on perfecting its ability to communicate with us in a way that all of us would understand rather than changing us to fit more with it. Synthetics get full understanding but the kid doesn't say they've got a direct line into what organics (that no longer exist) are thinking at all times. And if the hybridized organics still have free will and individuality then in 6 months that understanding that synthetics have will be outdated and need an upgrade.

If you don't want to integrate anything, you don't have to. And synthetics will understand how organic thought processes work, which will still function after the upgrade because otherwise it'd make no sense; that, by and large, doesn't change.

I'm not talking about elevating, say, krogan above teh salarians.  I'm
talking about organic life no longer being worthy of existence. The
"master race" is now organic/synthetic hybrids, the (LOL) "final
evolution of life"

This isn't a single race. This argument is still fallacious.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 02:48 .


#60
Steelcan

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Synthesis isn't necessarily disgusting. Its just the fulfillment of the Leviathan's goals. Synthetic life is now able to be controlled like organics. All life is now connected and the Leviathans are top dogs again.

Modifié par Steelcan, 29 octobre 2013 - 02:57 .


#61
cap and gown

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Exactly what is it about Shepard that she gets to decide this for everyone, everywhere? Just how did star kid decide she should play the role of god?

#62
Iakus

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Xilizhra wrote...


I'm not talking about elevating, say, krogan above the salarians.  I'm
talking about organic life no longer being worthy of existence. The
"master race" is now organic/synthetic hybrids, the (LOL) "final
evolution of life"

This isn't a single race. This argument is still fallacious.


If it's fallacious it's only because we do not have a proper term for what Synthesis does.  But the principle is the same:  organics are to be relegated to the ash heap of history.  You have no chocie in teh matter.  So sayeth The Shepard.

#63
Xilizhra

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Exactly what is it about Shepard that she gets to decide this for everyone, everywhere? Just how did star kid decide she should play the role of god?

Showing up and using the Crucible.

If it's fallacious it's only because we do not have a proper term for what Synthesis does. But the principle is the same: organics are to be relegated to the ash heap of history. You have no chocie in teh matter. So sayeth The Shepard.

This strikes me as being rather silly, because you as a person are still totally intact, as is everyone else. There may have been genetic upgrades, but so far as we can tell, that doesn't alter your mind or anything of the sort. Not all change is destruction.

#64
3DandBeyond

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Xilizhra wrote...

Beyond that Synthesis is pretty idiotic. People will say it doesn't fundamentally change people or take away free will or some such. What then does it do? It instantly inserts tech into all organic life in the galaxy including daisies, puppies, fishies, and worms that integrates with organic DNA-to do what? It imparts all this knowledge (so learning is unnecessary) from who? From whose point of view? If it's totally scientific then that's likely to ****** off fundamental creationists. Does it also fix people medically? EDI implies that it does. Great, immortality or something approaching it. Glad the Rachni and Krogan are not prolific breeders. Or how about rabbits? Roaches? I see no problem with any of this.

If you're that confident about it inserting "tech," kindly explain exactly what it does?

I also think that everyone instantly gaining some kind of knowledge is based around a misreading of the ending that refers to the Reapers being able to impart knowledge after being freed.

Synthetics get a full understanding of organics. Great. Organics no longer exist. Hybrids do and they either are or are not the same as organics. It seems they are not because organics don't have instant knowledge of everything or tech in their DNA. The tech must do something and if it does anything then it removes adaptation (natural adaptation), random mutation, orderly evolution, and change unless it's allowed by the tech. If it does not do this, something I'd not want to have tech do, then it really does nothing, so again why do it? Just so we can have green eyed reaper buddies? And great, now all those used to be people, horrid aberrations created by reapers-husks, banshees, brutes, marauders, and so on also have green eyes. I guess Bob the Husk will be joining us as we car pool to work. So what if his wife and kids no longer recognize him. Perhaps that tech-DNA will help them not care.

Assumptions ahoy. I personally suspect that the Synthesis effect, in and of itself, does nothing other than make it easier to integrate with other technology, which could certainly lead to amazing medical advances and the like, but which would not create them out of nowhere.

Also, on why we'd do it... well, of course, many won't see Destroy or Control as desirable; additionally, what you seem to be proposing is that new forms of life made out of organic material previously belonging to other life forms, somehow, do not deserve to live by virtue of their makeup, and that strikes me as being fairly abhorrent in and of itself.


Nice one.  I asked the question what does it do.  It either changes people funadamentally or it doesn't and that's the whole premise of my question--what does it do?  You're a proponent for it, I'm not.  I see it as either superfluous or controlling-there is no grey area for it.  If it's superfluous then why do it?  If it is not and it is controlling then don't do it.

So because I find it abhorrent that people goo is used to make reapers and that their minds are somehow assimilated into a reaper, you find my disgust of it abhorrent?  Really.  Dead is dead.  And though there's debate as to when a person really is dead, it is very much at times both a societal understanding as well as an individual one.  There are those who would not want their life extended artificially and that's an individual preference that is more often being respected.  There's also a societal one that says if you kill a body and suck up its components, you've basically murdered a person.  Any thing created to do specifically that or born and that does that through some mental defect is abhorrent.  Jeffrey Dahmer believed he was being systematically abandoned by people and in order to keep them around, he'd eat them.  Part of his belief was that he kept their essence with them.  And he was born and became that-he was sick but also abhorrent and unable to change or be changed.  What he'd done was done.

The reapers were created to suck up people goo-their existence was predicated on killing people (by our definition) and liquefying their remains to create more people killing machines.  But to try and take your point, let's say they're sharks.  Sharks are beautiful creatures, they occur naturally and kill to live, not for some stupid reason a broken computer program gave them (or because they like it as Sovereign suggested the reapers did).  That does not mean if you see a shark attacking someone you love that you would just say, "oh well that's the way it goes.  Sharks will be sharks.  'bye Fred."

Or perhaps you mean the hybridized organo-synthetics?  I find the situation abhorrent and those so changed to be victims.  I never saw anyone so changed as being worthy of scorn because I see them as being abused, having had tech of unknown origin inserted into them without their consent, that will by virtue of what it at minimum does, change them.  We are as much individuals based upon our inner components as we are our outer facades-and as you said we are vastly different from each other even with a small variance in DNA that now exists.  If you take two people who are now only say 10% different (this is just as an example) and add DNA to them, say that is 50% of their DNA-that's the same for everyone, you have just dramatically made them more similar.  And the kid says it-it's the pinnacle of evolution, which means toward the end.  Like the cheetah or any other creature on Earth that may go extinct because of too similar DNA.

You suspect the tech is so we can better interface with synthetics, except we (in the game) already had good ways to do so and didn't need tech in the DNA.  Talking worked fairly well.

#65
Iakus

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Xilizhra wrote...




Exactly what is it about Shepard that she gets to decide this for everyone, everywhere? Just how did star kid decide she should play the role of god?

Showing up and using the Crucible.


And if harbinger's aim was a little off, and it was EDI who made it to the Crucibe?

Or TIM arranged things a little differently, and it was Anderson who survived?

If it's fallacious it's only because we do not have a proper term for what Synthesis does. But the principle is the same: organics are to be relegated to the ash heap of history. You have no chocie in teh matter. So sayeth The Shepard.

This strikes me as being rather silly, because you as a person are still totally intact, as is everyone else. There may have been genetic upgrades, but so far as we can tell, that doesn't alter your mind or anything of the sort. Not all change is destruction.


What if I don't want to be "upgraded"?  What if I'm happy being as I am now?  And "The Shepard" says otherwise?

Edit:  Also, 3DandBeyond does a really good job at articulating the nonsense about everyone suddenly getting along

Modifié par iakus, 29 octobre 2013 - 03:07 .


#66
Xilizhra

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Nice one. I asked the question what does it do. It either changes people funadamentally or it doesn't and that's the whole premise of my question--what does it do? You're a proponent for it, I'm not. I see it as either superfluous or controlling-there is no grey area for it. If it's superfluous then why do it? If it is not and it is controlling then don't do it.

Again, because Destroy and Control are worse.

So because I find it abhorrent that people goo is used to make reapers and that their minds are somehow assimilated into a reaper, you find my disgust of it abhorrent? Really. Dead is dead. And though there's debate as to when a person really is dead, it is very much at times both a societal understanding as well as an individual one. There are those who would not want their life extended artificially and that's an individual preference that is more often being respected. There's also a societal one that says if you kill a body and suck up its components, you've basically murdered a person. Any thing created to do specifically that or born and that does that through some mental defect is abhorrent. Jeffrey Dahmer believed he was being systematically abandoned by people and in order to keep them around, he'd eat them. Part of his belief was that he kept their essence with them. And he was born and became that-he was sick but also abhorrent and unable to change or be changed. What he'd done was done.

Disgust of the process and the actions to undertake it... that's fine. Where I draw the line is saying that, after the Reapers have been released from the Catalyst and are no longer doing this, indeed trying to repair the damage that the Catalyst had done before, that they still have no right to exist because of their physical composition.

Or perhaps you mean the hybridized organo-synthetics? I find the situation abhorrent and those so changed to be victims. I never saw anyone so changed as being worthy of scorn because I see them as being abused, having had tech of unknown origin inserted into them without their consent, that will by virtue of what it at minimum does, change them. We are as much individuals based upon our inner components as we are our outer facades-and as you said we are vastly different from each other even with a small variance in DNA that now exists. If you take two people who are now only say 10% different (this is just as an example) and add DNA to them, say that is 50% of their DNA-that's the same for everyone, you have just dramatically made them more similar. And the kid says it-it's the pinnacle of evolution, which means toward the end. Like the cheetah or any other creature on Earth that may go extinct because of too similar DNA.

No, I hadn't been referring to them.

You suspect the tech is so we can better interface with synthetics, except we (in the game) already had good ways to do so and didn't need tech in the DNA. Talking worked fairly well.

And fundamentally altering the nature of the geth in such a way that their minds now work completely differently.

And if harbinger's aim was a little off, and it was EDI who made it to the Crucibe?

Synthesis might not work regardless, but she wouldn't require destructive analysis to choose Control.

Or TIM arranged things a little differently, and it was Anderson who survived?

Destroy, very likely.

What if I don't want to be "upgraded"?  What if I'm happy being as I am now?  And "The Shepard" says otherwise?

Well, that depends. Would you prefer that another race be wiped out instead? Or would you prefer that Shepard becomes the Catalyst with full control of the Reapers?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 03:13 .


#67
3DandBeyond

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Xilizhra wrote...

Exactly what is it about Shepard that she gets to decide this for everyone, everywhere? Just how did star kid decide she should play the role of god?

Showing up and using the Crucible.

If it's fallacious it's only because we do not have a proper term for what Synthesis does. But the principle is the same: organics are to be relegated to the ash heap of history. You have no chocie in teh matter. So sayeth The Shepard.

This strikes me as being rather silly, because you as a person are still totally intact, as is everyone else. There may have been genetic upgrades, but so far as we can tell, that doesn't alter your mind or anything of the sort. Not all change is destruction.


No, Shepard was specifically tasked with destroying the reapers, and never given sole authority to do anything other than that.  The fact that anyone in the galaxy might say "I don't want some unknown tech inserted in me" would make what was done wrong because it was altering a person's body against their will (without consent is strictly doing something against someone's will). 

Being totally intact means unaltered.  In fact all change is the destruction of something.  It is of necessity.  Even if only in the destruction of some alternate choice or path-it is destruction.  The problem is we have EDI's words (which are rather stupid considering her "I'm alive" thing which she already had achieved and thanked Shepard for-her natural evolution rather than an artificial one) and we have the knowledge that it gets integrated with our DNA.  We know what DNA is for-it controls all of what we are internally and gives us thresholds and abilities.  Upgrades?  Based on what and who and where is it from?  It's never a good idea to use a dirty needle even to inject lifesaving drugs (might be necessary but you minimize the risk as much as possible).  So, it's a great idea to insert tech that attaches and grows into your DNA that comes from some unknown construct?  Cool, might as well have bought it from some guy in a trenchcoat standing on a corner and then say, "it's all good.  Upgrades."

#68
Xilizhra

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No, Shepard was specifically tasked with destroying the reapers, and never given sole authority to do anything other than that. The fact that anyone in the galaxy might say "I don't want some unknown tech inserted in me" would make what was done wrong because it was altering a person's body against their will (without consent is strictly doing something against someone's will).

No option here is morally spotless, but there's certainly a least wrong choice.

Being totally intact means unaltered. In fact all change is the destruction of something. It is of necessity. Even if only in the destruction of some alternate choice or path-it is destruction. The problem is we have EDI's words (which are rather stupid considering her "I'm alive" thing which she already had achieved and thanked Shepard for-her natural evolution rather than an artificial one) and we have the knowledge that it gets integrated with our DNA. We know what DNA is for-it controls all of what we are internally and gives us thresholds and abilities. Upgrades? Based on what and who and where is it from? It's never a good idea to use a dirty needle even to inject lifesaving drugs (might be necessary but you minimize the risk as much as possible). So, it's a great idea to insert tech that attaches and grows into your DNA that comes from some unknown construct? Cool, might as well have bought it from some guy in a trenchcoat standing on a corner and then say, "it's all good. Upgrades."

So you believe that Synthesis would have too many unintended side effects? If so, choose Control.

#69
Iakus

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Xilizhra wrote...


What if I don't want to be "upgraded"?  What if I'm happy being as I am now?  And "The Shepard" says otherwise?

Well, that depends. Would you prefer that another race be wiped out instead? Or would you prefer that Shepard becomes the Catalyst with full control of the Reapers?


Doesn't matter.  The guy who doesn't want to be "upgraded" isn't in the Crucible chamber.  Shepard is.  Deciding that poor slob's fate.

#70
Xilizhra

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iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


What if I don't want to be "upgraded"?  What if I'm happy being as I am now?  And "The Shepard" says otherwise?

Well, that depends. Would you prefer that another race be wiped out instead? Or would you prefer that Shepard becomes the Catalyst with full control of the Reapers?


Doesn't matter.  The guy who doesn't want to be "upgraded" isn't in the Crucible chamber.  Shepard is.  Deciding that poor slob's fate.

Then I need to make a judgment call on whether they'd prefer Synthesis or Control. Which, of course, is not easy.

#71
3DandBeyond

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Xilizhra wrote...


Disgust of the process and the actions to undertake it... that's fine. Where I draw the line is saying that, after the Reapers have been released from the Catalyst and are no longer doing this, indeed trying to repair the damage that the Catalyst had done before, that they still have no right to exist because of their physical composition.





Not how people work, sorry but reality is different from this and so is what we're shown in the game.  The reapers whether released from the catalyst or under the new one's control, do help because they're still controlled or because the story and the slides and all are just plain dumb.

I'm objecting to their physical composition, the way they came into existence, and their imprisonment of those who we have no reason to believe would have ever wanted to be housed within huge shells with billions of other minds for all eternity.  I object to the living hell that that would be and can conceive of no reason to think it would be other than that.  As people, we are as much about love and living and individual realities as we are about survival.  More in fact.  Breathing and the mechanics of a physical body give us life.  That other stuff gives us a reason to live.  It's abhorrent to suggest that those minds inside of reaper people goo bodies, wants to be like that forever, and we are never shown any sort of communication with them.

But you can't separate what they are from what they were.  In ME1 and 2, the reapers we met had autonomy and enjoyed what they were doing, which was more about destruction than any sort of odd salvation.  If someone ate my family, I wouldn't care if they were forced to do it or not-if they enjoyed it, I'd want them gone from my reality.  It doesn't help when they're the size of skyscrapers nor does it help when their variants look vaguely like people I might have known.  I don't want to have a better connection with them, don't want to interface with them, don't want to see them, know them, live with them, or be any part of them.  I want to bury my family, lost to me, living some quasi-existence forever trapped inside a reaper shell formed from the goo of other people.  Give me a break.  I'm so sorry I don't want to study and love a new lifeform. 

#72
jtav

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Shepard has the right by virtue of being the protagonist, as glib as that sounds. I've already made galaxy-shaping decisions way above my paygrade. What's one more?

#73
Xilizhra

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Not how people work, sorry but reality is different from this and so is what we're shown in the game. The reapers whether released from the catalyst or under the new one's control, do help because they're still controlled or because the story and the slides and all are just plain dumb.

You already think they're dumb, so that works.

I'm objecting to their physical composition, the way they came into existence, and their imprisonment of those who we have no reason to believe would have ever wanted to be housed within huge shells with billions of other minds for all eternity. I object to the living hell that that would be and can conceive of no reason to think it would be other than that. As people, we are as much about love and living and individual realities as we are about survival. More in fact. Breathing and the mechanics of a physical body give us life. That other stuff gives us a reason to live. It's abhorrent to suggest that those minds inside of reaper people goo bodies, wants to be like that forever, and we are never shown any sort of communication with them.

Fine. Ask them once they are freed to confirm or deny this just because you can't conceive of it being a good thing. The Reapers are a very alien species and were built for a specific purpose; why do you think any part of them still thinks like humans or other races? Even released from control, their state of independence (as Legion puts it) is their natural one; certainly the one they'd be by far the most used to.
Just because it looks abominable doesn't mean it is, for them.

But you can't separate what they are from what they were. In ME1 and 2, the reapers we met had autonomy and enjoyed what they were doing, which was more about destruction than any sort of odd salvation. If someone ate my family, I wouldn't care if they were forced to do it or not-if they enjoyed it, I'd want them gone from my reality. It doesn't help when they're the size of skyscrapers nor does it help when their variants look vaguely like people I might have known. I don't want to have a better connection with them, don't want to interface with them, don't want to see them, know them, live with them, or be any part of them. I want to bury my family, lost to me, living some quasi-existence forever trapped inside a reaper shell formed from the goo of other people. Give me a break. I'm so sorry I don't want to study and love a new lifeform.

Noted. And ignored. You do not get to dictate who lives and who dies based on vengeance.

#74
3DandBeyond

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Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


What if I don't want to be "upgraded"?  What if I'm happy being as I am now?  And "The Shepard" says otherwise?

Well, that depends. Would you prefer that another race be wiped out instead? Or would you prefer that Shepard becomes the Catalyst with full control of the Reapers?


Doesn't matter.  The guy who doesn't want to be "upgraded" isn't in the Crucible chamber.  Shepard is.  Deciding that poor slob's fate.



Then I need to make a judgment call on whether they'd prefer Synthesis or Control. Which, of course, is not easy.

Your assumption is that if one doesn't like synthesis then they're all in for Control?  Or even Destroy?  You know very well that many of us aren't "for" any of the choices nor for refuse.  The one thing Destroy if believable or preferable has going for it, is it was given permission and even came in the form of orders from those in command.  It was allowed, was the goal, could be assumed to even have been given passive permission by those who will suffer the most from it (those I care about)-the geth and EDI.  I find their loss arbitrary and the result of some inserted cost so as to take a canon ending and force it to be non-canon.

As for control, it suffers from many of the problems of synthesis but is an external form of what synthesis is internally.  It does still force people to accept and live with the creatures of their nightmares, with no way to know Shepard is controlling them.  Sure, they see reapers fix stuff, but they'd know the reapers did this at some point in every cycle-the relays are always fixed as well as the citadel for every new cycle-so that proves nothing.  All people would know is that suddenly the reapers stop fighting, fix stuff and then roam around the galaxy looking for stuff to do.  Shepard has not contact with the outside world.  Shepard also lacks the stuff that made Shepard Shepard.

Synthesis is just an internal form of control.  It may give people more of an understanding as to what has happened but it creates pod people, and bunnies, and daisies, and puppies, and worms.  Oh yes, and grass gets greener everywhere.

#75
Xilizhra

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Your assumption is that if one doesn't like synthesis then they're all in for Control? Or even Destroy? You know very well that many of us aren't "for" any of the choices nor for refuse. The one thing Destroy if believable or preferable has going for it, is it was given permission and even came in the form of orders from those in command. It was allowed, was the goal, could be assumed to even have been given passive permission by those who will suffer the most from it (those I care about)-the geth and EDI. I find their loss arbitrary and the result of some inserted cost so as to take a canon ending and force it to be non-canon.

No, but I have to make some choice, and try to come up with the least problematic one.