381 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not how people work, sorry but reality is different from this and so is what we're shown in the game. The reapers whether released from the catalyst or under the new one's control, do help because they're still controlled or because the story and the slides and all are just plain dumb.

You already think they're dumb, so that works.

I'm objecting to their physical composition, the way they came into existence, and their imprisonment of those who we have no reason to believe would have ever wanted to be housed within huge shells with billions of other minds for all eternity. I object to the living hell that that would be and can conceive of no reason to think it would be other than that. As people, we are as much about love and living and individual realities as we are about survival. More in fact. Breathing and the mechanics of a physical body give us life. That other stuff gives us a reason to live. It's abhorrent to suggest that those minds inside of reaper people goo bodies, wants to be like that forever, and we are never shown any sort of communication with them.

Fine. Ask them once they are freed to confirm or deny this just because you can't conceive of it being a good thing. The Reapers are a very alien species and were built for a specific purpose; why do you think any part of them still thinks like humans or other races? Even released from control, their state of independence (as Legion puts it) is their natural one; certainly the one they'd be by far the most used to.
Just because it looks abominable doesn't mean it is, for them.

But you can't separate what they are from what they were. In ME1 and 2, the reapers we met had autonomy and enjoyed what they were doing, which was more about destruction than any sort of odd salvation. If someone ate my family, I wouldn't care if they were forced to do it or not-if they enjoyed it, I'd want them gone from my reality. It doesn't help when they're the size of skyscrapers nor does it help when their variants look vaguely like people I might have known. I don't want to have a better connection with them, don't want to interface with them, don't want to see them, know them, live with them, or be any part of them. I want to bury my family, lost to me, living some quasi-existence forever trapped inside a reaper shell formed from the goo of other people. Give me a break. I'm so sorry I don't want to study and love a new lifeform.

Noted. And ignored. You do not get to dictate who lives and who dies based on vengeance.

It isn't only based on vengeance but that is a real authentic feeling.  Sure the people I knew and the billions that came before are likely changed into something else inside of reapers.  There's every indication though that the bodies of reapers will need to be maintained-nothing lasts forever.  And if the people inside of them are now different from before that's even more evidence of the deaths they caused.  They uploaded raw data power.  And the kid created this "new life" as you call it, to kill.  You keep skirting around the idea of autonomy that both Sovereign and Harbinger maintained.  They liked hurting and killing.  The reapers were created to kill, given that as their reason for being.  It's the age old debate about pit bulls-they may be docile when bred by people who treat them so, but misused and used to be killers, they have that bred into them.  Even when not under the direct control of their masters.  It even happens with people that are abducted as children-sometimes, if they live long enough with their captors they form beliefs and conduct themselves like their captors.  No, I wouldn't kill them, but I'm saying the reapers were created to kill and have had no other existence for all of their lives.

And yes, even in this game we do get to decide who lives and dies based on vengeance.  A lot of people side with the quarians and say they had a right to try and get rid of the geth, after they'd attacked the geth and the geth fought back, because it was all about their existence.

Living reapers whether with green eyes or under Shepard's control, are a risk not worth taking.  They had a built in reason for living, to reap, to ascend, to harvest, to cull the herd.  Should organic life pop up again, no one could be sure they'd not resume their reason for living.  And since all life must find a way to nourish and maintain itself, who can say what they'd do or need to do to survive and to maintain their own lives?

[Farangbaa]

Were there constant threads about killing the Rachni Queen too?

Or was that just something cool?

[Xilizhra]

It isn't only based on vengeance but that is a real authentic feeling. Sure the people I knew and the billions that came before are likely changed into something else inside of reapers. There's every indication though that the bodies of reapers will need to be maintained-nothing lasts forever. And if the people inside of them are now different from before that's even more evidence of the deaths they caused. They uploaded raw data power. And the kid created this "new life" as you call it, to kill. You keep skirting around the idea of autonomy that both Sovereign and Harbinger maintained. They liked hurting and killing. The reapers were created to kill, given that as their reason for being. It's the age old debate about pit bulls-they may be docile when bred by people who treat them so, but misused and used to be killers, they have that bred into them. Even when not under the direct control of their masters. It even happens with people that are abducted as children-sometimes, if they live long enough with their captors they form beliefs and conduct themselves like their captors. No, I wouldn't kill them, but I'm saying the reapers were created to kill and have had no other existence for all of their lives.

Well, we do know that the Reapers are capable of living peacefully, as Synthesis shows it. And Reapers don't add members of other species to their bodies; they're supposed to be representatives of a single species each, and all of those are extinct. It's never been their practice to create multispecies Reapers.

And yes, even in this game we do get to decide who lives and dies based on vengeance. A lot of people side with the quarians and say they had a right to try and get rid of the geth, after they'd attacked the geth and the geth fought back, because it was all about their existence.

Those people are wrong too.

Living reapers whether with green eyes or under Shepard's control, are a risk not worth taking. They had a built in reason for living, to reap, to ascend, to harvest, to cull the herd. Should organic life pop up again, no one could be sure they'd not resume their reason for living. And since all life must find a way to nourish and maintain itself, who can say what they'd do or need to do to survive and to maintain their own lives?

Even the Catalyst would rather die than continue the harvest; I doubt there's much risk of the Reapers resuming it.

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

Shepard has the right by virtue of being the protagonist, as glib as that sounds. I've already made galaxy-shaping decisions way above my paygrade. What's one more?

My Shepard has always been about letting the people of the galaxy find their own path, and decide their own fate.  Always.  Even if it's a choice I don't agree with (Hi, there, Legion!)  The only ending that even remotely resembles that for me is Destroy.  And even that is frought with the problem of synthetic life being annihilated.

So I reject having to choose any of these endings.  I choose another option.

[3DandBeyond]

Xilizhra wrote...

Your assumption is that if one doesn't like synthesis then they're all in for Control? Or even Destroy? You know very well that many of us aren't "for" any of the choices nor for refuse. The one thing Destroy if believable or preferable has going for it, is it was given permission and even came in the form of orders from those in command. It was allowed, was the goal, could be assumed to even have been given passive permission by those who will suffer the most from it (those I care about)-the geth and EDI. I find their loss arbitrary and the result of some inserted cost so as to take a canon ending and force it to be non-canon.

No, but I have to make some choice, and try to come up with the least problematic one.

Well, as you see it the least problematic.  As I see it it's the most.  Though I abhor the others as well, there's something to be said for them that mitigates some of the abhorrence.  I've given at length reasons for disliking all of the choices, but will say this:  Control at least maintains the status quo without the reapers (for now) killing.  Destroy does accomplish the goal desired from ME1 on and has the approval of all (save for TIM and those like him). 

Synthesis was the stated goal of Saren under indoctrination, was what the collectors were, which likely was the byproduct of indoctrination and the source of the divide which kept the crucible from being used, and was soundly destroyed by what Mordin says it is.  Javik also relates the story of tech that took over a whole race (again, synthesis that had already taken place).  It's also put into people with no authority and no real explanation as to where it came from and what it does and what makes it soooooo good.  It creates potential future problems that could lead to a galactic implosion that would make the Rachni's previous threat seem like a walk in the park.  And it does insert tech instantly and magically.  There is for me nothing about it that will ever make sense or be right.  And I abhor all the choices, based upon a lack of provability as to what they will do, and a lack of authenticity for the future they will lead to, and for what they may do to people that exist in their reality or those that fall victim to them.

[Xilizhra]

Well, as you see it the least problematic. As I see it it's the most. Though I abhor the others as well, there's something to be said for them that mitigates some of the abhorrence. I've given at length reasons for disliking all of the choices, but will say this: Control at least maintains the status quo without the reapers (for now) killing. Destroy does accomplish the goal desired from ME1 on and has the approval of all (save for TIM and those like him).

I can see Control still, but Destroy is simply vile without redeeming qualities, to me.

Synthesis was the stated goal of Saren under indoctrination, was what the collectors were, which likely was the byproduct of indoctrination and the source of the divide which kept the crucible from being used, and was soundly destroyed by what Mordin says it is. Javik also relates the story of tech that took over a whole race (again, synthesis that had already taken place). It's also put into people with no authority and no real explanation as to where it came from and what it does and what makes it soooooo good. It creates potential future problems that could lead to a galactic implosion that would make the Rachni's previous threat seem like a walk in the park. And it does insert tech instantly and magically. There is for me nothing about it that will ever make sense or be right. And I abhor all the choices, based upon a lack of provability as to what they will do, and a lack of authenticity for the future they will lead to, and for what they may do to people that exist in their reality or those that fall victim to them.

I'm fairly sure they are, in truth, authentic about the future, whether you like said future or not.

[3DandBeyond]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, we do know that the Reapers are capable of living peacefully, as Synthesis shows it. And Reapers don't add members of other species to their bodies; they're supposed to be representatives of a single species each, and all of those are extinct. It's never been their practice to create multispecies Reapers.

Living reapers whether with green eyes or under Shepard's control, are a risk not worth taking. They had a built in reason for living, to reap, to ascend, to harvest, to cull the herd. Should organic life pop up again, no one could be sure they'd not resume their reason for living. And since all life must find a way to nourish and maintain itself, who can say what they'd do or need to do to survive and to maintain their own lives?

Even the Catalyst would rather die than continue the harvest; I doubt there's much risk of the Reapers resuming it.

Really, uh no I don't get that he'd rather die than to continue it.  He serves his programming and at all costs must then solve the problem.  His fate isn't tied to the harvest-it's tied to the problem and the solution.  If the solution kills him, the so be it, but it isn't about him not continuing the harvest.  He says his solution no longer works.  The harvest isn't solving the problem.  He needs a new solution that will solve it.  Had he theorized a million years ago that he could solve it by "dying", he would have just "died".  It has nothing to do with the harvest.

The reapers are living beings-you keep saying it.  And one of the prime needs of living beings are to reproduce and continue the species.  For the reapers, the implication is that they too have a finite existence though Harbinger still lived as the oldest.  Anything could happen to them-their numbers could be affected.  We have no idea what they might do or need to do if they were faced with a threat to their survival.

And yes I know individual reapers are made up of only one race.  That does not mean they won't want to make new ones to add to their numbers nor does it mean that if injured or even aging, they won't need something or not be able to use any organic material to augment themselves.

[Xilizhra]

Really, uh no I don't get that he'd rather die than to continue it. He serves his programming and at all costs must then solve the problem. His fate isn't tied to the harvest-it's tied to the problem and the solution. If the solution kills him, the so be it, but it isn't about him not continuing the harvest. He says his solution no longer works. The harvest isn't solving the problem. He needs a new solution that will solve it. Had he theorized a million years ago that he could solve it by "dying", he would have just "died". It has nothing to do with the harvest.

The point is that the harvest stopped working as a solution.

The reapers are living beings-you keep saying it. And one of the prime needs of living beings are to reproduce and continue the species. For the reapers, the implication is that they too have a finite existence though Harbinger still lived as the oldest. Anything could happen to them-their numbers could be affected. We have no idea what they might do or need to do if they were faced with a threat to their survival.

You can choose Control if you fear this and would rather enslave them again. Although I don't think the Reapers see themselves as a species unto themselves; rather, each Reaper is a nation.

And yes I know individual reapers are made up of only one race. That does not mean they won't want to make new ones to add to their numbers nor does it mean that if injured or even aging, they won't need something or not be able to use any organic material to augment themselves.

Given that they never have, I don't know why they'd start now.

[Steelcan]

@3DandBeyond,

You must have realized by now that you are simply arguing against a brick will, unshakeable it its foundation.

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
  All people would know is that suddenly the reapers stop fighting, fix stuff and then roam around the galaxy looking for stuff to do.  Shepard has not contact with the outside world.  Shepard also lacks the stuff that made Shepard Shepard.

I don't see why establishing such contact would be impossible for the Sheplyst, if it found such communication advantageous. Harbinger and Sovereign had no problem communicating with organics. Whether organics would be willing to listen is another matter.

[Steelcan]

Xil is only going to dig a deeper hole of hir own delusion and headcanon.

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The reapers are living beings-you keep saying it.  And one of the prime needs of living beings are to reproduce and continue the species.  For the reapers, the implication is that they too have a finite existence though Harbinger still lived as the oldest.  Anything could happen to them-their numbers could be affected.  We have no idea what they might do or need to do if they were faced with a threat to their survival.

The Reapers don't seem to have been particularly devoted to their own needs while under the Catalyst's control.The cycles don't do anything for Reapers qua Reapers, unless they only want to be conscious 1% of the time for some reason. (If harvesting organics was an actual goal they're going about it in a ludicrously inefficient fashion, which is the core problem with ME1)

In any event, alternative methods for acquiring organics are available. George R.R. Martin's "A Song for Lya" comes to mind. It'll take a few centuries of social engineering to get there, but that's the great thing about being immortal.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 octobre 2013 - 04:34 .

[dreamgazer]

Steelcan wrote...

You must have realized by now that you are simply arguing against a brick will, unshakeable it its foundation.

That's the story of the entirety of the BSN, really, whether it's born of delusion and headcanon or unyielding criticism.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I should get an "unyielding criticism department" banner or business card.

[Obadiah]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
  All people would know is that suddenly the reapers stop fighting, fix stuff and then roam around the galaxy looking for stuff to do.  Shepard has not contact with the outside world.  Shepard also lacks the stuff that made Shepard Shepard.

I don't see why establishing such contact would be impossible for the Sheplyst, if it found such communication advantageous. Harbinger and Sovereign had no problem communicating with organics. Whether organics would be willing to listen is another matter.

I can imagine any number of cool dramatic scenes where the new Shepard Catalyst contacts the Council to broker peace... including something similar to the ending of 2001 where Shepard simply withdraws to a safe distance and broadcasts a simple message of cease-fire and peace.

[dreamgazer]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I should get an "unyielding criticism department" banner or business card.

I know a guy. 

[Navasha]

I have a question though for those who seem to like Synthesis.

Do you at all see any parallels between Synthesis and the Genophage?

The reason I ask is quite simple. My Shepard thought that the use of the Genophage was wrong not just for the horrific outcome, but because it was one side (Turian/Salarians) deciding to change an entire race of people to better be able to control them. It was the concept that they decided to impose this "solution" on an entire species, most of whom were innocent from ever participating in the Krogan Rebellions that was at the heart of what made it a wrong decision.

How is Synthesis any different?

[AlanC9]

Obadiah wrote...
I can imagine any number of cool dramatic scenes where the new Shepard Catalyst contacts the Council to broker peace... including something similar to the ending of 2001 where Shepard simply withdraws to a safe distance and broadcasts a simple message of cease-fire and peace.

Sure. And if anyone's foolish enough to attack the Reapers after that, it's Darwin Award time. Or maybe Man-Kzin War time, from the puppeteer's perspective.

[ghost9191]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
  All people would know is that suddenly the reapers stop fighting, fix stuff and then roam around the galaxy looking for stuff to do.  Shepard has not contact with the outside world.  Shepard also lacks the stuff that made Shepard Shepard.

I don't see why establishing such contact would be impossible for the Sheplyst, if it found such communication advantageous. Harbinger and Sovereign had no problem communicating with organics. Whether organics would be willing to listen is another matter.

that is fannon, and as we all know, fannon is not cannon


Without making anything up, all we have to go on is what the catalyst and the ec told us. Which is shepalyst just watches over the galaxy and is cut off from the species of said galaxy. S/he can only interact with it through the reapers. Does that mean s/he can communicate via them, possibly but who knows.


P.S. i just wanted to put the fannon line in there, so you don't have to pay attention to the second part. Well, that is  if you paid attention to any of it

Modifié par ghost9191, 29 octobre 2013 - 04:40 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
I can imagine any number of cool dramatic scenes where the new Shepard Catalyst contacts the Council to broker peace... including something similar to the ending of 2001 where Shepard simply withdraws to a safe distance and broadcasts a simple message of cease-fire and peace.

Sure. And if anyone's foolish enough to attack the Reapers after that, it's Darwin Award time. Or maybe Man-Kzin War time, from the puppeteer's perspective.

Attack the Reapers?

How about do anything the Reapers think is "bad for the many" including researching tech that could allow the races to surpass the Reapers?

Then it's Zombie Apocalypse time.
Or Indoctrination time
Or maybe just "Need Another Reaper" time

Or maybe something more subtle.  Like an Omega plague or a Heretic virus...

Modifié par iakus, 29 octobre 2013 - 04:41 .

[3DandBeyond]

Xilizhra wrote...

Synthesis was the stated goal of Saren under indoctrination, was what the collectors were, which likely was the byproduct of indoctrination and the source of the divide which kept the crucible from being used, and was soundly destroyed by what Mordin says it is. Javik also relates the story of tech that took over a whole race (again, synthesis that had already taken place). It's also put into people with no authority and no real explanation as to where it came from and what it does and what makes it soooooo good. It creates potential future problems that could lead to a galactic implosion that would make the Rachni's previous threat seem like a walk in the park. And it does insert tech instantly and magically. There is for me nothing about it that will ever make sense or be right. And I abhor all the choices, based upon a lack of provability as to what they will do, and a lack of authenticity for the future they will lead to, and for what they may do to people that exist in their reality or those that fall victim to them.

I'm fairly sure they are, in truth, authentic about the future, whether you like said future or not.

Based on what?  The kid.  And he's the most reliable of characters.  Oh well.  It's up to you what you believe or don't.  Just as it is up to me.  I'm a very trusting person, but likely to not believe someone bent on killing everyone and everything I know and love-no matter how misguided and thoughtful the reasoning behind it all.  As I've said it all eithe proves stupidity or bad programming, or it is based on untruths, lying, deception, and not on authenticity, or it's both stupid and deceptive. 

Since all choices serve to form a solution and his goal and have awful consequences for no real reason other than to serve BW's need to not create canon (except they always have and suddenly need to say no to canon), and they used bad writing, copied large parts of other products in the creation of this ending that does not fit, interjected even Synthesis almost wholly from a cartoon (even the use of the green effect was in the cartoon) ending, there is no choice I'd make from what they gave us.  I'll choose head canon or MEHEM and feel good about it and wish they'd chosen logic and created their own ending to this instead of a patchwork of junk from other sources that they then tried to insist fits with these games. 

Synthesis happens to have no actual basis as a desired choice with anyone or anything we see or hear in the game.  You see it differently-and use your own head canon to make it all work.  That's fine, enjoy.  But don't believe everyone sees this the same as you do.  That means rational people would object to having it done to them and that is still and will always be one of the core reasons it's abhorrent.

[CronoDragoon]

AlanC9 wrote...
Hmm... OK. But if a player's willing to commit genocide to prevent a hypothetical catastrophe, why isn't he picking Destroy in the first place? 

(Yeah, I know ... genocide of people you don't like is cool)

Well, if we go down the "it's genocide" route, then there's still a utilitarian answer, as the Reapers are only one form of synthetics, as opposed to all of them.

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
I can imagine any number of cool dramatic scenes where the new Shepard Catalyst contacts the Council to broker peace... including something similar to the ending of 2001 where Shepard simply withdraws to a safe distance and broadcasts a simple message of cease-fire and peace.

Sure. And if anyone's foolish enough to attack the Reapers after that, it's Darwin Award time. Or maybe Man-Kzin War time, from the puppeteer's perspective.

Attack the Reapers?

How about do anything the Reapers think is "bad for the many" including researching tech that could allow the races to surpass the Reapers?

Then it's Zombie Apocalypse time.
Or Indoctrination time
Or maybe just "Need Another Reaper" time

Or maybe something more subtle.  Like an Omega plague or a Heretic virus...

Yep-there's nothing that says it has to even be about attacking a reaper.  How about the Krogan and the Salarians start fighting-who will the reapers side with?

And there are a lot of smart people that when faced with either an existence they cannot live with or certain death, that would still choose certain death.  They might see it as a spark to ignite others to do the same and seeing passive reapers might make them think they have an actual chance. 

And just because some can imagine Shepard contacting the council or others does not make it so.  The kid was never known to exist by anyone before the crucible and Shepard.  And he says Shepard will have no connection to people anymore.  The whole thing pretty clearly indicates that communication is out.  Head canon whatever.  Logic follows logic.

Real people would not just accept reaper guardians and neighbors and things happen.  Some will accept that and die inside, some will rejoice in that, but many will hate it.  And it doesn't make people into stupid fools if they decide to try and resist life under reaper oversight.  People have killed single reapers so they'd believe it possible to kill even just one-or how about the variants-they could easily kill some of them.

Or as iakus said people could just do things that the reapers might see as threatening, organics or synthetics.  The whole situation would be a breeding ground for big divides amongst people-those who wanted to fight, those who wanted to befriend, those who wanted to study, and those who might think wrongly that life could just continue on normally and might hit some invisible boundary. 

If the Rachni breed too much and people fear them.  If the Krogan breed too much and want new territory.  If the Salarians can't resist their "scientific" studies.  If the Turians want to rebuild a powerful presence.  If.

[3DandBeyond]

Navasha wrote...

I have a question though for those who seem to like Synthesis.

Do you at all see any parallels between Synthesis and the Genophage?

The reason I ask is quite simple. My Shepard thought that the use of the Genophage was wrong not just for the horrific outcome, but because it was one side (Turian/Salarians) deciding to change an entire race of people to better be able to control them. It was the concept that they decided to impose this "solution" on an entire species, most of whom were innocent from ever participating in the Krogan Rebellions that was at the heart of what made it a wrong decision.

How is Synthesis any different?

I don't like it partly because I have seen the parallels.  The reality was with the genophage the culpable parties were intelligent and could have found an answer short of this near full sterilization.  It's like they chose almost the most extreme choice as their first one, rather than other options.  They decided for a whole species whereas synthesis decides for every carbon-based lifeform.  The advancement of the Krogan and the genophage led to their stagnation and this lack of involvement in life and it was forced as a substitute for actually trying to work things out, to communicate, and try, and learn to try again if things fail.  It also cemented the Krogan as a disposable race just as surely as synthesis sees organics as disposable.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:00 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Attack the Reapers?

How about do anything the Reapers think is "bad for the many" including researching tech that could allow the races to surpass the Reapers?

Then it's Zombie Apocalypse time.
Or Indoctrination time
Or maybe just "Need Another Reaper" time

Or maybe something more subtle.  Like an Omega plague or a Heretic virus...

If that's how your Sheplyst rolls, then sure.