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[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I'm well past the point of caring about this topic, but now that I've involved myself already...

Sync is my preferred ending and has been since my second playthrough pre-EC (I "defaulted" to Destroy first).

And yes, it is stupid, but stupid is par for the course in Mass Effect (and no, not just with the ending). EC in general was also trying to compensate for A LOT of unanswered questions in very little time. They simply could not cover their bases.

Still I prefer it to Destroy because that ending is flat-out lame. All it offers you is peace-of-mind. Oh, and after walking into an explosion, Shepard lives... sans both arms and both legs. Again, lame. Control is far more preferable, but obsolete, since Sync offers what I would seek to do with Control anyway: empower the galaxy, and let the Reapers be useful for once.

[Sir DeLoria]

Post high-EMS destroy Shep is in far better shape than post-Collector attack Shep.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

StreetMagic wrote...

How do you know Shepard is missing arms and legs in Destroy? I wish I knew more about that ending, but I don't. I know next to nothing.

This has been a running joke from March 2012. It looks like BW just stuck a torso and shoved rubble around it so you could speculate on the rest.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

StreetMagic wrote...

How do you know Shepard is missing arms and legs in Destroy? I wish I knew more about that ending, but I don't. I know next to nothing.

Well, whenever I post here, I'm told that projecting anything beyond what we're shown or what we're told is "just headcanon." We're not shown Shepard's arms or legs nor told that they're there, so by defintion, it's headcanon to think so.

OTOH, "sounds like" and "looks like"-nonsense is enough info to draw conclusions, and Sheard "looks like" a nugget to me in the breath-scene. It's not sound reasoning, but I've seen far more ridiculous conclusions off of "sounds like"-nonsense.

I'd have liked to think Shepard's body is intact and he/she can make a full recovery, but alas, BSN canon won't let me.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:12 .

[dreamgazer]

StreetMagic wrote...

How do you know Shepard is missing arms and legs in Destroy?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

dreamgazer wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

How do you know Shepard is missing arms and legs in Destroy?

*snip* "head-cannon" *snip*

Caramba! Didn't we go over this already, dreamgazer?

Nothing clearly indicates Shepard's arms or legs really are there.

Ergo, Shepard as nugget is canon. Shepard having them intact is headcanon.

[AlanC9]

Headcanon? That's a pretty cute visual pun, actually

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:28 .

[dreamgazer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

How do you know Shepard is missing arms and legs in Destroy?

*snip* "head-cannon" *snip*

Caramba! Didn't we go over this already, dreamgazer?

Nothing clearly indicates Shepard's arms or legs really are there.

Ergo, Shepard as nugget is canon. Shepard having them intact is headcanon.

Nothing clearly indicates Shepard's arms or legs aren't there, HYR, even if that were the deciding factor in Shepard losing their limbs in this setting.   All we know is that Shepard did, in fact, have arms and legs beforehand, and that Shepard does, in fact, have both cybernetic and skin/bone/muscle weave enhancements.  Rendering them irreparable is a mental creation that assumes the worst of technological possibility (despite what we've seen previously), the fall of debris, and the position of camera angles. 

If you wanna take the limbs, you're gonna have to prove that the specific impact trajectory rendered them irreperable, as well as emphasizing how that setting's medicine could not help in that situation.  Until then, it's a living version of the body we saw in the Citadel, and that caliber of trauma wasn't enough to kill this highly-"enhanced" individual.

[David7204]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Caramba! Didn't we go over this already, dreamgazer?

Nothing clearly indicates Shepard's arms or legs really are there.

Ergo, Shepard as nugget is canon. Shepard having them intact is headcanon.

I hope you're not serious.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Caramba! Didn't we go over this already, dreamgazer?

Nothing clearly indicates Shepard's arms or legs really are there.

Ergo, Shepard as nugget is canon. Shepard having them intact is headcanon.

I hope you're not serious.

Well, it's not like HYR's assumptions come out of left field or anything. 

Trauma in a sci-fi space opera setting can be a bitch to deal with, especially with how this scene was handled. 

[Iakus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

How do you know Shepard is missing arms and legs in Destroy? I wish I knew more about that ending, but I don't. I know next to nothing.

Well, whenever I post here, I'm told that projecting anything beyond what we're shown or what we're told is "just headcanon." We're not shown Shepard's arms or legs nor told that they're there, so by defintion, it's headcanon to think so.

OTOH, "sounds like" and "looks like"-nonsense is enough info to draw conclusions, and Sheard "looks like" a nugget to me in the breath-scene. It's not sound reasoning, but I've seen far more ridiculous conclusions off of "sounds like"-nonsense.

I'd have liked to think Shepard's body is intact and he/she can make a full recovery, but alas, BSN canon won't let me.

Hooray for EC and "clarity and closure!" 

[3DandBeyond]

Xilizhra wrote...

Navasha wrote...

I have a question though for those who seem to like Synthesis.

Do you at all see any parallels between Synthesis and the Genophage?

The reason I ask is quite simple. My Shepard thought that the use of the Genophage was wrong not just for the horrific outcome, but because it was one side (Turian/Salarians) deciding to change an entire race of people to better be able to control them. It was the concept that they decided to impose this "solution" on an entire species, most of whom were innocent from ever participating in the Krogan Rebellions that was at the heart of what made it a wrong decision.

How is Synthesis any different?

I don't see the genophage as abhorrent, especially since it was that or genocide... so, yes, maybe there are parallels here. Just not in a negative way.

Look up genocide.  The genophage was a form of genocide since forced birth control especially to that degree is a form of genocide.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Genophage: that was a good one.

Krogan were launching asteroids at planets = genocide.
Genophage = forced birth control of Krogan = genocide to stop genocide.

The Genophage -- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

[3DandBeyond]

Eryri wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The reapers are living beings-you keep saying it.  And one of the prime needs of living beings are to reproduce and continue the species.  For the reapers, the implication is that they too have a finite existence though Harbinger still lived as the oldest.  Anything could happen to them-their numbers could be affected.  We have no idea what they might do or need to do if they were faced with a threat to their survival.

The Reapers don't seem to have been particularly devoted to their own needs while under the Catalyst's control.The cycles don't do anything for Reapers qua Reapers, unless they only want to be conscious 1% of the time for some reason. (If harvesting organics was an actual goal they're going about it in a ludicrously inefficient fashion, which is the core problem with ME1)snip

This is true. Unfortunately, however, their methods are just as inefficient for their new stated purpose of preserving organic life. If your goal is to cull and preserve species before they create a runaway synthetic singularity as quickly and efficiently as possible, then why would you wait until they can put up a fight? Why would you wait until they have space flight, nuclear weapons, and are either on the cusp of creating A.I.s or have already done so?

Cutting it a bit fine aren't we Mr Catalyst?

Would it not have been better to harvest the Quarians during their equivalent of the steam age, before they got around to inventing the Geth? OK, the cycle was delayed, so perhaps the reapers can be forgiven for letting that one slip by. However they have no excuse for letting the Zha-Til be created in the previous cycle. Fortunately the Protheans were around to do the Reaper's job for them while they were having a nice nap. The Reaper's way of doing things is a bit of a joke. At least prior to ME3, I could head-cannon that the Reapers let civilisations evolve so far in order to incorporate any novel technology that they happened to invent, ala the Borg. Now even that is no longer possible.

Every example we have of A.I.s in the ME universe have either been fairly docile and open to reason (EDI and the orthodox Geth) or easily defeated by organics (the heretic Geth, the Citadel A.I., the Zha-Til). Synthesis is an excessively radical solution to a problem that may not even exist. TBH, I rather resent having to indulge this obviously broken, idiot AI by choosing any one of his terrible, unnecessary options.

Yes, this.  Had the AI sat around doling out dollars and donuts as some exercise meant to solve nutritional voids and as a way to stave off poverty, I'd have questioned his "sanity" just as much.  He exists (regardless of the stupidly flawed leviathan DLC) as an antagonist lacking good reason and logic.  His own words cast doubt on his truthiness.  He is singularly fully capable of deceit (since he created the reapers and thus created their ability to indoctrinate which does convince people of things they'd otherwise not believe in or do) and contradicts himself and his creations.  Again, it's either that he's an Artificial non-Intelligence or he's a big fat liar or both, strictly using human/organic based terms to describe behavior his programming authorized or he discovered on his own.  This makes leviathan stupid.  His programming allowed him to lie and create deception and it was full of holes.

The options exist in the absence and due to a non-working previously used solution that wasn't a solution at all because it freaking never worked to do what he intended it to do.  He says his solution (the reapers) no longer work.  I've said this before, that means they are no longer a solution.  If I'm trying to fix a problem with my computer and I think I know what's wrong and I implement what I think will fix it, but it doesn't, I won't keep doing the same thing expecting different results.  That's stupid.  But the kid still uses the reapers even after he says they are no longer working, no longer a solution.  That's incredibly stupid. 

On the other hand, Shepard and company and even the geth themselves come to far better solutions on their own.  But some will say "the peace doesn't last, the geth and quarians are fighting again."  So what?  It's not like the reapers don't keep coming back and keep killing organics every 50k years and it's not like any one of thes ridiculous solutions is ever going to be permanent either.  Destroy-the kid says is the least permanent.  Control-who's to say that some won't build another crucible even to try and destroy the reapers.  Hackett even might since he wanted them dead-and he'd have access to the plans.  Synthesis-nothing says organic life can't spontaneously or artificially be created once again and surely synthetic life can be created at any time.  It sets the problem up again since if synthetics and organics exist, by the kid's own rules, the conflict exists.  And the reapers and the kid also still exist. 

Good luck with that-no solution is permanent.  The kid says that himself.  The conflict is inevitable and will always exist.  The created will always rebel against the creator.  If he's right on that for this instance then there will never be a solution or it will not always happen and will not always be inevitable.

[3DandBeyond]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Genophage: that was a good one.

Krogan were launching asteroids at planets = genocide.
Genophage = forced birth control of Krogan = genocide to stop genocide.

The Genophage -- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

Yeah but there's also a case to be made for "you reap what you sow".  The galaxy in its hubris consistently made decisions that were only slightly less nasty than the ones the Protheans continually made.  The Protheans were about conquest and servitude and loyalty to their authority.  The galaxy this time continued on with their use of advancement to service a war and also the idea of not taking responsibility when things go wrong.  Just as the Protheans started the Rachni problem. a Salarian started it this time around.  And instead of dealing with it themselves, the galaxy fought a proxy war with expendable people, who could be thrown away when the mood was right. 

Such is the product of a system that advances races before they're ready to be advanced and have the innate maturity to deal with it-kind of like giving 12 year olds millions of dollars to play pro football along with a driver's license, a Ninja Motorcycle, and access to numerous doctors of dubious reputation.  Nothing wrong with that.  So when it does go wrong, blame the child, and lock him up for doing the wrong things.

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...


Well, whenever I post here, I'm told that projecting anything beyond what we're shown or what we're told is "just headcanon." We're not shown Shepard's arms or legs nor told that they're there, so by defintion, it's headcanon to think so.

OTOH, "sounds like" and "looks like"-nonsense is enough info to draw conclusions, and Sheard "looks like" a nugget to me in the breath-scene. It's not sound reasoning, but I've seen far more ridiculous conclusions off of "sounds like"-nonsense.

I'd have liked to think Shepard's body is intact and he/she can make a full recovery, but alas, BSN canon won't let me.

Hooray for EC and "clarity and closure!" 

Actually that's pretty funny since I've never read where HYR2.0 ever said that and I daresay most who think somewhat like I do would have agreed with him.  I've said the same thing myself.  Torso Shepard does not give us much reason to think there's that much left beyond a torso-but if alive, there must be a head.  In fact, it's one of the reasons why the explanation for destroy seems so much to indicate the tech in Shepard (even you are part synthetic) was affected just as EDI was and as likely all synthetic life and tech inside anyone was. 

The description for it as well as the explosion that envelopes Shepard, then the fact Torso Shepard is laying in a pile of hard target rubble as opposed to soft target stuff like skin, muscle, and tissue, and even sensitive synthetics to some extent lead to cognitive dissonance.  I know what I want to be the truth and I know full well what Bioware (teasing aside) intended to be the truth here-the torso is Shepard alive, but because of it being merely a lump of charcoal under crap and because of how destroy is described and what we're shown, it makes no sense that it would be Shepard alive, but it is.  Colossal mess and so glad BW employees think ambiguity is closure.  It's got clarity the consistency of mud.

[AlanC9]

David7204 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Caramba! Didn't we go over this already, dreamgazer?

Nothing clearly indicates Shepard's arms or legs really are there.

Ergo, Shepard as nugget is canon. Shepard having them intact is headcanon.

I hope you're not serious.

I keep telling people that irony doesn't work on BSN -- unless you're going to go all-in like juLiA and really not care if anyone gets it or not.

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Caramba! Didn't we go over this already, dreamgazer?

Nothing clearly indicates Shepard's arms or legs really are there.

Ergo, Shepard as nugget is canon. Shepard having them intact is headcanon.

I hope you're not serious.

I keep telling people that irony doesn't work on BSN -- unless you're going to go all-in like juLiA and really not care if anyone gets it or not.

Don't you actually mean sarcasm?  Personally, I prefer to leave it to people to tell me they are being sarcastic and taking what they say at face value.  It actually is head canon and intentionally meant to be an ambiguous situation so that those that felt Shepard should die and those that felt Shepard should live would both have what they wanted and yet neither truly gets what they wanted.

[sveners]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Caramba! Didn't we go over this already, dreamgazer?

Nothing clearly indicates Shepard's arms or legs really are there.

Ergo, Shepard as nugget is canon. Shepard having them intact is headcanon.

I hope you're not serious.

I keep telling people that irony doesn't work on BSN -- unless you're going to go all-in like juLiA and really not care if anyone gets it or not.

Don't you actually mean sarcasm?  Personally, I prefer to leave it to people to tell me they are being sarcastic and taking what they say at face value.  It actually is head canon and intentionally meant to be an ambiguous situation so that those that felt Shepard should die and those that felt Shepard should live would both have what they wanted and yet neither truly gets what they wanted.

With 3099 EMS you get Shepard absolutely certainly dead.

With 3100 EMS, those who wanted Shepard alive got the barest minimum of a hint that it might be a possibility.

Otherwise it's the exact same ending.

I think those who wanted Shepard dead got the better deal

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote..
Don't you actually mean sarcasm?

I don't think any form of irony works well here. I suppose H.Y.R.'s remark counts as sarcasm, yes, since the BSN's a clear target.

Personally, I prefer to leave it to people to tell me they are being sarcastic and taking what they say at face value.  It actually is head canon and intentionally meant to be an ambiguous situation so that those that felt Shepard should die and those that felt Shepard should live would both have what they wanted and yet neither truly gets what they wanted.

I thought we were talking sbout arms and legs, not whether Shep lives or dies. You really think Bio meant to be ambiguous about the limbs?

I agree that taking sarcasm as if it were sincere can be a useful way to handle it, depending on how preposterous the proposition is. 

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 octobre 2013 - 10:12 .

[cap and gown]

So now we're discussing whether Shepard is a quadruple amputee?

Anyway, back on topic, the choices seem pretty clear cut to me:

1) Rape the entire galaxy
2) Become Reaper Lord 2.0
3) Do what you were sent to do

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote..
Don't you actually mean sarcasm?

I don't think any form of irony works well here. I suppose H.Y.R.'s remark counts as sarcasm, yes, since the BSN's a clear target.

Personally, I prefer to leave it to people to tell me they are being sarcastic and taking what they say at face value.  It actually is head canon and intentionally meant to be an ambiguous situation so that those that felt Shepard should die and those that felt Shepard should live would both have what they wanted and yet neither truly gets what they wanted.

I thought we were talking sbout arms and legs, not whether Shep lives or dies. You really think Bio meant to be ambiguous about the limbs?

I agree that taking sarcasm as if it were sincere can be a useful way to handle it, depending on how preposterous the proposition is. 

Actually both since there's no hint of a head either and the sudden loss of arms, legs, and all that would be extremely traumatic requiring very fast medical care.  No head would require a mortician.

As to what Bioware actually meant about that torso there's no real answer other than that they've said through Chris that it's ambiguous closure as a whole.  We're given a shot of a torso briquette.  There could be arms and legs just as there could be a head, but without that visual it all remains ambiguous with much of the "sadder" implication being supported by what destroy is explained as and what we're shown and the "happier" implication being the more obvious intent.  It does what I believe they meant it to do, irritate many.  It's like them having their cake and eating it too.  They decided not to create endings the developed naturally from what we did and said out of what they'd created and then decided to not give full closure to a destroy Shepard. 

It's a weenie attempt to create a non-canon canon ending.  They did it to themselves by creating a slew of dialogue that leads to this idea of destroying the reapers as the goal, no matter what kind of Shepard you played.  It made far more sense to me that there could be a Shepard that sided with TIM at least in part but would be more forthright about that agreement, or that thought there was merit in some of what Saren believed if not all of it.  A deeper character that would have said things other than destroy sounded plausible.  One of the big flaws for me is that these Shepards don't exist or aren't fully fleshed out, only one bent on killing reapers shows his/her torso in the game.

I at least imagine a Shepard that would be ticked off at the time spent in the brig, irate enough to think some have their heads up their nether regions while at least TIM has always seen that the reapers were real.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 octobre 2013 - 10:35 .