447 réponses à ce sujet

[KR96]

AlanC9 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Wow. Plagiarize much?

What's he plagiarizing?

That always gets me, I can't wrap my head around the fact that people on this forum with pictures of girls as their avatar are guys. I'm not judging anyone in any way, but just wanted to share my burdens with you guys.

Modifié par killerrabbit1996, 04 novembre 2013 - 11:03 .

[dreamgazer]

AlanC9 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Wow. Plagiarize much?

What's he plagiarizing?

http://awtr.ca/long:this-is-not-a-pipe

[dreamgazer]

killerrabbit1996 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Wow. Plagiarize much?

What's he plagiarizing?

That always gets me, I can't wrap my head around the fact that people on this forum with pictures of girls as their avatar are guys. I'm not judging anyone in any way, but just wanted to share my burdens with you guys.

Naomi Watts scoffs at your burden, good sir. 

[KR96]

Yeah well, she's worthy of an exception I suppose.

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Catalyst it was said by another poster, and I don't have time to go back now to reference the original post so I apologize, loses no matter what.  I said it wasn't so because each choice is a win for him since it is a solution to the problem-it wasn't necessarily so that he had to "like" the choices but since he needs a solution and they are (better and worse) versions of solutions, they are as much wins for him as the reapers were/are.

So I just lost track of the argument? Makes sense.

It would be one thing if he was merely programmed to understand that synthetics will always fight with organics-I agree this can happen because it may happen with some synthetics.  However, his program says something else.  Synthetics will surpass organics and will kill all organics.  It is inevitable.  I don't agree with this-first of all because the scope of this is insanely huge.  And would encompass what?  Just this galaxy, just discovered star systems with mass relays in them?  The universe which could contain more organic life?  But that aside, he's been programmed to "believe" this is inevitable.  It's an unsolvable problem just as much as the idea of synthetics always fighting with organics is an unsolvable problem.  If it will always happen and is inevitable, it can never be changed.

So you don't believe the kid's program is right but you do believe that we're supposed to believe it is right?

[sveners]

dreamgazer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Wow. Plagiarize much?

What's he plagiarizing?

http://awtr.ca/long:this-is-not-a-pipe

I miss Drayfish, but I guess like most others he has moved on. Good for him!

[silverexile17s]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Catalyst it was said by another poster, and I don't have time to go back now to reference the original post so I apologize, loses no matter what.  I said it wasn't so because each choice is a win for him since it is a solution to the problem-it wasn't necessarily so that he had to "like" the choices but since he needs a solution and they are (better and worse) versions of solutions, they are as much wins for him as the reapers were/are.

So I just lost track of the argument? Makes sense.

It would be one thing if he was merely programmed to understand that synthetics will always fight with organics-I agree this can happen because it may happen with some synthetics.  However, his program says something else.  Synthetics will surpass organics and will kill all organics.  It is inevitable.  I don't agree with this-first of all because the scope of this is insanely huge.  And would encompass what?  Just this galaxy, just discovered star systems with mass relays in them?  The universe which could contain more organic life?  But that aside, he's been programmed to "believe" this is inevitable.  It's an unsolvable problem just as much as the idea of synthetics always fighting with organics is an unsolvable problem.  If it will always happen and is inevitable, it can never be changed.

So you don't believe the kid's program is right but you do believe that we're supposed to believe it is right?

I think we're supposed to believe that it's simply being honest with it's opinion -- that it's at the very least being straight-up on it's motivations for doing all this and why it thinks this was necessary.

[dreamgazer]

StreetMagic wrote...

I suspect Dreamgazer is using that avatar to announce his support, not for females per se, but for absurd story endings that make you cry for no reason.

Actually, I just love Mulholland Drive. 

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

You think maybe the Alliance would start getting a little suspicious when these corporations stop building crusiers for them?  And yet they keep busily buildingfleets of ships?

or not? Who says they went to the same ship manufacturer? I'm sure theres plenty in the galaxy. Or you know, like I said before.....they built their own. Sort of like how you've been told multiple times throughout this thread by another user that they do in fact own such a thing.

What does this have to do with leaving a gaping hole in a story?  You are in fact just handwaving Udina's treason as "Sometimes these things just happen"

Umm no I'm not. Lamens terms I guess: you say there's some sort of gaping hole. I'm simply saying there isn't. You say he has no motive to do what he did. I literally listed a fairly logical one a few pages ago. So you say there's a hole because the game didn't have some explaination for you. And I'm saying its common sense and some vocalized explaination from Udina regarding his motives wasn't necessary.

It is entirely relevant.  Unless you are you making the case that Shepard is in fact a homicidal monster that will stalk and murder the survivors of ME3?

Not quite. You're aware that type of scene has been done before and what it implies for the character in that scene (regardless of who or what they are). And that was my entire point. You know it means that the character is alive. And its been done before.

Nevertheless, the scene is pointless as it is not resolution or closure, but a hook for a sequel that will never happen.  I challenge you to acknoeldge that.

Easiest one yet. Resolution and closure: He lives. What.....now you want Bioware to tell you how "Your" Shepard lived the rest of his life? And here I was thinking you were the type to advocate player agency.

Hook for a sequel? Nope. Knowing that it was the final game of a trilogy, I would've never got that impression. Saw him breathe. Knew he was alive. I'm guilty of being a movie buff. Scenes shot like that have been done for decades (many without sequels)

I have not seen Drive, but I have seen The Grey.  And it is interesting that you mention that film.  Given the movie starts with the Liam Neeson character contemplating (more than contemplating, really) suicide.  And ends with him deciding his life is worth living, and preparing to actually fight for his life.  In complete contrast to Shepard at the end of ME3.

We're talking about the scene and what it means, and where its been done before. The contrast between the characters is of no relevance to the discussion. Not sure if you're trying use that as support for some type of argument.....or if you're simply saying "its interesting"

And in addition, you never see how that turned out.  It simply goes to credits. 

hmm what a shame.....


You didn't stay til after the credits.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 05 novembre 2013 - 12:19 .

[AlanC9]

sveners wrote...

I miss Drayfish, but I guess like most others he has moved on. Good for him!

I actually recognized it as drayfish's argument -- didn't see drayfish's words in there too.

[Obadiah]

There are at 25 frigates guarding Omega at the end of Invasion comic, maybe 10 in the Aria assault in Omega DLC video, and another 10 - 15 shadows in the assault on Cronos.

So, Cerberus may have maybe 20 - 50 frigates total. Anyone got a better number?

Modifié par Obadiah, 05 novembre 2013 - 01:25 .

[silverexile17s]

Obadiah wrote...

There are at 25 frigates guarding Omega at the end of Invasion comic, maybe 10 in the Aria assault in Omega DLC video, and another 10 - 15 shadows in the assault on Cronos.

So, Cerberus may have maybe 20 - 50 frigates total. Anyone got a better number?

No - that sounds about right.

[Kunari801]

Tsunami Chef wrote...

.... I waited to play ME3 until after the citadel DLC was released and everything else though, so maybe my opinion is different....The ending is definitely a downpoint, but there are few games, if any, that I can remember being as satisfied while I was playing through the main story. 

If you did not play the pre-EC endings; Then yes, I believe your opinion is different. Your first experience with ME3, including the ending is after the Levi and EC ending-tweaks plus Omega & Citadel DLCs. 

[3DandBeyond]

Kunari801 wrote...

Tsunami Chef wrote...

.... I waited to play ME3 until after the citadel DLC was released and everything else though, so maybe my opinion is different....The ending is definitely a downpoint, but there are few games, if any, that I can remember being as satisfied while I was playing through the main story. 

If you did not play the pre-EC endings; Then yes, I believe your opinion is different. Your first experience with ME3, including the ending is after the Levi and EC ending-tweaks plus Omega & Citadel DLCs. 

And I just want to point out that the idea that the fact that the rest of the game and even the trilogy is mostly good to great is one reason the endings were particularly a letdown.  They don't fit with what came before.

The funny thing is Tsunami Chef actually will have both a more satisfying (in some ways) and less satisfying look at it than those of us that played the original endings.  We got to fall off a cliff at the end with total garbage endings.  Then BW said we as fans just didn't understand their um, art, so we needed clarity and closure because we were just sad this was the end of Shepard's story arc.  They created the EC which Casey Hudson said did not fundamentally change the endings, except that's sort of crap because it added refuse, and that added clarity which implies all the EC did was explain what was shown without changing it.  However, they did change some things to make it clear (in ridiculous ways) how the teammates with Shepard got back on board the Normandy (but didn't explain how the crew members at the FOB did), and showed that the galaxy wasn't destroyed (except it still should have been all but decimated and uninhabitable by organic, carbon-based life)---the Charon relay for one is a complete mess in Destroy and that would have devastating effects for everyone in the Sol system at least.  That's based on the Desperate Measures codex entry.

Also, Tsunami Chef gets the "full" story in chronological order.  Leviathan does attempt to explain the kid's presence but IMO is idiotic.  In fact, as bad as it all iss, I think Levi makes the original ending and the EC even worse.  Big doofuses that control people and are afraid of synthetics killing organics, create an uncontrolled synthetic being that kills organics over and over and over again, and they say he's still following his programming.  Brilliant.

The Citadel is the epilog, but only serves really as that for many who got it after playing the ending-it's clearly intended to emotionally fill that void for those who believe Shepard lived.  And since it was the last piece of story for ME3, it's certainly intended that way.  But for anyone that played the game first in some sort of chronological order, Citadel is no epilog, so depending on what you wanted from the game, it might be less satisfying.

I think this should be a lesson to anyone that creates games like this (and I'd like more along the lines of this-scifi with imported save games and great characters).  It's important to know where you're going with the game and have an end in mind.  There should also be a satisfying conclusion to the story and it's ok to create some canon even in a choice-based game.  It's impossible not to create canon.  It's also ok to have varied endings, but do include a logical range of what people would want.  And release content in chronological order with this exception: if you do create a trilogy with a great set of endings that people by and large do like, only then is it really ok to make your next games prequels.  If the endings stink, never ever consider creating more content that happens before the endings.  My opinion, of course.

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote....

I think this should be a lesson to anyone that creates games like this (and I'd like more along the lines of this-scifi with imported save games and great characters).  It's important to know where you're going with the game and have an end in mind.  There should also be a satisfying conclusion to the story and it's ok to create some canon even in a choice-based game.  It's impossible not to create canon.  It's also ok to have varied endings, but do include a logical range of what people would want.  And release content in chronological order with this exception: if you do create a trilogy with a great set of endings that people by and large do like, only then is it really ok to make your next games prequels.  If the endings stink, never ever consider creating more content that happens before the endings.  My opinion, of course.

An important message on this fine N7 Day.

[3DandBeyond]

silverexile17s wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Catalyst it was said by another poster, and I don't have time to go back now to reference the original post so I apologize, loses no matter what.  I said it wasn't so because each choice is a win for him since it is a solution to the problem-it wasn't necessarily so that he had to "like" the choices but since he needs a solution and they are (better and worse) versions of solutions, they are as much wins for him as the reapers were/are.

So I just lost track of the argument? Makes sense.

It would be one thing if he was merely programmed to understand that synthetics will always fight with organics-I agree this can happen because it may happen with some synthetics.  However, his program says something else.  Synthetics will surpass organics and will kill all organics.  It is inevitable.  I don't agree with this-first of all because the scope of this is insanely huge.  And would encompass what?  Just this galaxy, just discovered star systems with mass relays in them?  The universe which could contain more organic life?  But that aside, he's been programmed to "believe" this is inevitable.  It's an unsolvable problem just as much as the idea of synthetics always fighting with organics is an unsolvable problem.  If it will always happen and is inevitable, it can never be changed.

So you don't believe the kid's program is right but you do believe that we're supposed to believe it is right?

I think we're supposed to believe that it's simply being honest with it's opinion -- that it's at the very least being straight-up on it's motivations for doing all this and why it thinks this was necessary.

Exactly.  I personally believe his programming and all that BW did surrounding it, is rubbish, but I see that we're supposed to believe he's being "sincere" for lack of a better word and that the solutions he's been coming up with (all of them have failed so he says) work to at least temporarily solve things.  As I've said, it's just that nothing he's ever done has been permanent, nor would the choices be.  It's like getting your car fixed-the problem is solved now but either that problem will return or something else will pop up that will break your car.  That doesn't mean you won't keep getting it fixed (though at some point the cost will outweigh the benefit).

Thing is the kid is programmed to believe that without exception (inevitably and always), synthetics will destroy all organic life.  His solutions have always been to alter organic life.  Apparently as he sees it if organic life does not exist in its current form, it cannot be destroyed and won't need to be saved from synthetics.  In Control, organic life and synthetic life exist.  In Destroy, organic life exists and there remains a question as to whether synthetic life still does-the description for Destroy is a mess.  In Synthesis, the full body organic lifeform no longer exists since it is now a hybrid.  Synthetic life exists.  But, organic and synthetic life do both exist at some microscopic level within the hybrid synthorganics.  And the organic body may well work to reject the synthetic particles within it, just as our bodies now do.  Nothing synthetic implanted in our bodies ever lasts forever.  The synthetic particles within the organic body may well even start to break down and like some medical implant on the fritz, may begin to kill the whole body. 

Perhaps this may even be one of BW's lessons for us-that our reliance on tech may end up killing us as we begin to create artificial organs and so on to implant within us.  Synthetics that may well kill us as we rely on them to fix us when we give up some of the control of our own bodies-lack of exercise, bad eating habits, and all that-fix it with a new heart, or whatever, rather than try and prevent the problem before it happens.  Or genetic manipulation to fix our bad genetics.  Who knows what they were thinking because they're really not talking.

To go back to the first point though-I'm merely commenting on things that I see as wrong with the whole idea of this "logic" that the kid and even Leviathan perpetuate if we accept his programming as it is.  But there's so much that's flawed about the whole idea of it even being any sort of logic, let alone the logic of an advanced super AI.  Having played Leviathan, and having listened to the kid, it's my opinion he is the least intelligent AI and I'd expect nothing better from Leviathan.  Idiots.  A computer's programming is only as good as the person that programmed it.  Garbage in, garbage out.  Great way to end this trilogy.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 novembre 2013 - 02:14 .

[Farangbaa]

Am I really the only one here who finds the Catalyst just f'ing awesome? I don't think I've ever been so excited in a video game as I was when the Catalyst started telling his story.

To me the story kinda made sense from that point on.

Because face it, people, without the Catalyst the Reapers are horrible. Without the Catalyst they are purposeless machines hellbent on destroying all life.

Maybe that's what bothers people so much about the ending: that those horrible, life destroying monsters serve a purpose.

[TheProtheans]

Psychevore wrote...

Am I really the only one here who finds the Catalyst just ****g awesome? I don't think I've ever been so excited in a video game as I was when the Catalyst started telling his story.

To me the story kinda made sense from that point on.

Because face it, people, without the Catalyst the Reapers are horrible. Without the Catalyst they are purposeless machines hellbent on destroying all life.

Maybe that's what bothers people so much about the ending: that those horrible, life destroying monsters serve a purpose.

:happy:

[Iakus]

Psychevore wrote...

Am I really the only one here who finds the Catalyst just ****g awesome? I don't think I've ever been so excited in a video game as I was when the Catalyst started telling his story.

To me the story kinda made sense from that point on.

Because face it, people, without the Catalyst the Reapers are horrible. Without the Catalyst they are purposeless machines hellbent on destroying all life.

Maybe that's what bothers people so much about the ending: that those horrible, life destroying monsters serve a purpose.

What bothers people is that it's a stupid purpose.  And we can't stop the Catalyst without signing on to some aspect of that purpose ourselves.

[Farangbaa]

iakus wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

Am I really the only one here who finds the Catalyst just ****g awesome? I don't think I've ever been so excited in a video game as I was when the Catalyst started telling his story.

To me the story kinda made sense from that point on.

Because face it, people, without the Catalyst the Reapers are horrible. Without the Catalyst they are purposeless machines hellbent on destroying all life.

Maybe that's what bothers people so much about the ending: that those horrible, life destroying monsters serve a purpose.

What bothers people is that it's a stupid purpose.  And we can't stop the Catalyst without signing on to some aspect of that purpose ourselves.

Of course it's a stupid purpose, for you, an organic.  But it's NOT under the conditions by which the Catalyst was created. 

Are you like those people that play a board game, and then come up with your own rules "because it's more fun"? Just play the game, ffs.

[Iakus]

Psychevore wrote...

iakus wrote...

Psychevore wrote...

Am I really the only one here who finds the Catalyst just ****g awesome? I don't think I've ever been so excited in a video game as I was when the Catalyst started telling his story.

To me the story kinda made sense from that point on.

Because face it, people, without the Catalyst the Reapers are horrible. Without the Catalyst they are purposeless machines hellbent on destroying all life.

Maybe that's what bothers people so much about the ending: that those horrible, life destroying monsters serve a purpose.

What bothers people is that it's a stupid purpose.  And we can't stop the Catalyst without signing on to some aspect of that purpose ourselves.

Of course it's a stupid purpose, for you, an organic.  But it's NOT under the conditions by which the Catalyst was created. 

Are you like those people that play a board game, and then come up with your own rules "because it's more fun"? Just play the game, ffs.

DId you not read the rest of my post?

[ElSuperGecko]

Psychevore wrote...
Am I really the only one here who finds the Catalyst just ****g awesome? I don't think I've ever been so excited in a video game as I was when the Catalyst started telling his story.

Yes. Yes you are.

To me the story kinda made sense from that point on.

You mean it didn't make sense to you before hand?

Because face it, people, without the Catalyst the Reapers are horrible. Without the Catalyst they are purposeless machines hellbent on destroying all life.

Ah, I see.  You just weren't paying attention...

Maybe that's what bothers people so much about the ending: that those horrible, life destroying monsters serve a purpose.

Not just to the game, either!

[CronoDragoon]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

You mean it didn't make sense to you before hand?

Actually no, because we didn't have an explanation yet. There's nothing from which to make sense. What would it mean for the Reapers to "make sense" when we don't know anything about them?

Note that I'm not saying the Catalyst entirely makes sense, either.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 07 novembre 2013 - 03:27 .

[AlanC9]

I suppose you could say that the story makes sense even if the Reapers don't. Just handwave it away by saying that the Reapers are mysterious and unknowable, or something like that.