447 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

Because logically, the villain must always stop to tell the hero his plans. Then the villain will tie the Hero up, before the Hero makes a daring escape. After the battle, the Hero will fall down, until the Love Interest comes and saves them. Big party on the battle field.

THE END.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

No, it would have been stupid.

Haven't heard that in a while.

Is it not heroic enough?  Shepard needs to triumph over the Reaper leader personally to assert his heroism once and for all?

[KaiserShep]

To be fair, the final confrontation is only part of the reveal of the reapers' goal, since the one on Rannoch prattles on about saving organics from themselves. Gotta remove that too if you remove the final choices.

[Steelcan]

KaiserShep wrote...

To be fair, the final confrontation is only part of the reveal of the reapers' goal, since the one on Rannoch prattles on about saving organics from themselves. Gotta remove that too if you remove the final choices.

You can keep something similar to fuel speculation, no need to explain every single thing in the universe.

Especially if they are gonna half ass the explanation

[David7204]

You see how weak and fragile these supposed values of yours are? You'll moan day and night for complex villains with 'realistic' motives and goals, you'll complain about the Illusive Man being stupid and killing people for no reason...and then you drop it all at the very first bump in the road. You reverse course entirely.

You can't think of a satisfying motive and you don't like the idea of a villain such as the Reapers possibly being justified, and you cave. You demand exactly what you've rallied against. A big dumb villain who kills everyone 'for the lols.'

Modifié par David7204, 08 novembre 2013 - 04:45 .

[rekn2]

lets all gang up on david

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

You see how weak and fragile these supposed values of yours are? You'll moan day and night for complex villains with 'realistic' motives and goals, you'll complain about the Illusive Man being stupid and killing people for no reason...and then you drop it all at the very first bump in the road. You reverse course entirely.

You can't think of a satisfying motive and you don't like the idea of a villain such as the Reapers possibly being justified, and you cave. You demand exactly what you rally against. A big dumb villain who kills everyone 'for the lols.'

Or MAYBE I think there is a difference between TIM and the Reapers.  One is a human with human desires for power etc... 

The others have been set up as classic "eldritch abominations" ina very Lovecraftian sense, admittedly the facade of Lovecraft does start to crumble to a degree, but it is still very present until "Wake up"

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

You see how weak and fragile these supposed values of yours are? You'll moan day and night for complex villains with 'realistic' motives and goals, you'll complain about the Illusive Man being stupid and killing people for no reason...and then you drop it all at the very first bump in the road. You reverse course entirely.

You can't think of a satisfying motive and you don't like the idea of a villain such as the Reapers possibly being justified, and you cave. You demand exactly what you rally against. A big dumb villain who kills everyone 'for the lols.'

Strawmaning to the max, right here.

We already knew the Illusive Man's motives. He wasn't a mystery to us. Then suddenly his character shifts. Do you know what that is? That's just stupid. 

This is in contrast to the Reapers who we know next to nothing about, for almost three entire games, and then suddenly, they throw in five minutes of everything. It's not the same. 

[David7204]

No. Mass Effect is not and never has been Lovecraft. Both the player and Shepard have always pushed to understand, to investigate, to learn more.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

No. Mass Effect is not and never has been Lovecraft. Both the player and Shepard have always pushed to understand, to investigate, to learn more.

You cannot deny the very clear parallels between the Reapers and Lovecraft. 

They aren't called Space-Cthulhus for no reason.  They act as if they cannot be understood, they look like Cthulhu, and they seemed to reek of "orange/blue morality".

This created an audience expectation of such complec monsters, not a rehashed "reveal" from the Matrix

[David7204]

Utter nonsense. It's overwhelmingly clear from the very beginning that the Reapers have a goal, a motive. They wouldn't have given them such specific and precise actions otherwise.

[NeonFlux117]

Shepard's story is over. Shepard is either dead, dying, or the new catalyst. The ending made this very, VERY clear.

Shepard is ashes. Move on. You can bet all the day 1 DLC and multiplayer passes in the world that BioWare is. Moving on.

[KaiserShep]

Technically, not even the Matrix went this far with the reveal. We knew from the start what it was that the machines wanted, and we knew from the first movie what the primary villain, Smith, also wanted. The only thing that did come suddenly, other than the Deus Ex Machina, was Neo's striking a deal for peace by eradicating the Smith program.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Utter nonsense. It's overwhelmingly clear from the very beginning that the Reapers have a goal, a motive. They wouldn't have given them such specific and precise actions otherwise.

Vigil says otherwise, the Reapers say otherwise, Shepard NEVER says that they need to understand them.  They need to stop them, understanding why they harvest is secondary to stopping the ahrvest.

And yes its clear they have a goal, but the nature of that goal is supposed to be beyond our comprehension, hence the parallel to Lovecraft, Sovereign says this, Harby does, that Reaper on Rannoch does. 

[David7204]

It doesn't matter how many Reapers say it. Shepard never accepts it and neither does the player.

[Seboist]

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Utter nonsense. It's overwhelmingly clear from the very beginning that the Reapers have a goal, a motive. They wouldn't have given them such specific and precise actions otherwise.

Vigil says otherwise, the Reapers say otherwise, Shepard NEVER says that they need to understand them.  They need to stop them, understanding why they harvest is secondary to stopping the ahrvest.

And yes its clear they have a goal, but the nature of that goal is supposed to be beyond our comprehension, hence the parallel to Lovecraft, Sovereign says this, Harby does, that Reaper on Rannoch does. 

Well, they did live up to that with how uncomprehensibly stupid it is to reproduce as human slurpeed space terminators and with that stupid motivation for killing/harvesting from starchild.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

It doesn't matter how many Reapers say it. Shepard never accepts it and neither does the player.

Shepard never says anything about having to understand them ever, at all.  In fact he says the exact opposite "This isn't about strategy or tactics, its about survival"  "we fight or we die"  Not "We understand them or we die"

[KaiserShep]

I guess it depends on the player. Once something says that the purpose is beyond comprehension, anything that's revealed later is going to be pretty disappointing. At that point, what they want is not as important as their deaths.

[Steelcan]

Seboist wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Utter nonsense. It's overwhelmingly clear from the very beginning that the Reapers have a goal, a motive. They wouldn't have given them such specific and precise actions otherwise.

Vigil says otherwise, the Reapers say otherwise, Shepard NEVER says that they need to understand them.  They need to stop them, understanding why they harvest is secondary to stopping the ahrvest.

And yes its clear they have a goal, but the nature of that goal is supposed to be beyond our comprehension, hence the parallel to Lovecraft, Sovereign says this, Harby does, that Reaper on Rannoch does. 

Well, they did live up to that with how uncomprehensibly stupid it is to reproduce as human slurpeed space terminators and with that stupid motivation for killing/harvesting from starchild.

I agree, and this created a huge disconnect between expectation vs delivery.

It also wasn't very heroic

[SwobyJ]

Psychevore wrote...

Am I really the only one here who finds the Catalyst just ****g awesome? I don't think I've ever been so excited in a video game as I was when the Catalyst started telling his story.

To me the story kinda made sense from that point on.

Because face it, people, without the Catalyst the Reapers are horrible. Without the Catalyst they are purposeless machines hellbent on destroying all life.

Maybe that's what bothers people so much about the ending: that those horrible, life destroying monsters serve a purpose.

Honestly, you might be onto something there.

Oh s***, complexity! *runs for cover*

EDIT: I'm with most of everyone else's points, but still, I think you've keyed into an important part of our reaction to the ending. Because, to us, Mass Effect IS 'over' with Shepard. No more secrets to uncover, no more plot advancements, nothing.

But that's not true. There's nothing that says that Reaper tech is utterly removed from future writing in the series (yes, a continuing series), or that the things that currently seem unknown, will always be unknown.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 08 novembre 2013 - 05:07 .

[AlanC9]

Steelcan wrote...
And yes its clear they have a goal, but the nature of that goal is supposed to be beyond our comprehension, hence the parallel to Lovecraft, Sovereign says this, Harby does, that Reaper on Rannoch does. 

They said that, yep. You believed them? You wanted to believe them?

Modifié par AlanC9, 08 novembre 2013 - 05:32 .

[Mr.House]

David7204 wrote...

Utter nonsense. It's overwhelmingly clear from the very beginning that the Reapers have a goal, a motive. They wouldn't have given them such specific and precise actions otherwise.

Are you telling me Cthulhu and his buddies don't have goals and motives? Because if so wow.

[Ravensword]

Mr.House wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Utter nonsense. It's overwhelmingly clear from the very beginning that the Reapers have a goal, a motive. They wouldn't have given them such specific and precise actions otherwise.

Are you telling me Cthulhu and his buddies don't have goals and motives? Because if so wow.

Nonesense. Everyone has a motive. It's all part of meaningful writing. Any writer who provides a character with no motive is dishonest.

Tell me, House. Does trying to deny these facts about writing make you feel powerful?