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[TheBlackBaron]

 The Reapers pretty much existed only to be conquered to fuel the player's power fantasy while Liara the naive virgin prostrates herself before him, blue alien ass at the ready.
SO 
They had Lovecraftian overtones, sure, but only in the sense that they pretended to be unknowable. 
MUCH
Contrast with Javik, who had way better characterization and motives than either of those two and was clearly the superior character. 
TROLLING

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 08 novembre 2013 - 06:20 .

[AlanC9]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

 The Reapers pretty much existed only to be conquered to fuel the player's power fantasy while Liara the naive virgin prostrates herself before him, blue alien ass at the ready.

Can I use this for a sig?

[Eryri]

Tony77A wrote...

Eryri wrote...

snip

Essentially the ending of ME3 puts you in the position of having to humor such a lunatic by agreeing to one of his "solutions". In the destroy ending you murder the red heads (geth) and you and you surviving friends get to walk away. And you are expected to feel happy that you managed to save at least some of your friends, instead of feeling like a cowardly D-bag for not finding some way to overcome the idiot with the gun.

This is basically what makes the ending(s) "feel" wrong (there's plenty of plotholes also).

Every choice you can make, is giving in to the Catalysts insanity to some degree. The only option that comes close to a "win" is Destroy, even if the price is almost unbearably high.
At least Destroy is the option that the Catalyst DON'T want you to choose.

There should have been an option to say "**** you! I'm Commander Shepard and I'm doing this instead! I win!"
Now we're at the mercy of an insane AI.

Man I hate the star-brat!

As you say, the plotholes don't help either. Had the ending been better written, and the Reapers maintained their aura of menace, then I could have accepted the decision to kill off Shepard. I probably wouldn't have liked it on an emotional level, or felt any burning need to replay it, but I could have respected it as a logical conclusion to a story about battling overwhelming odds. 

Spoilers
Infamous 2 pulls this off quite well, despite being a superhero fantasy. One is able to accept the protagonist's fate in one of the 2 endings because it seems a logical conclusion to his chosen path.

However, when the plan to defeat the Reapers involves a magic superweapon, said Reapers turn out to have a faintly ridiculous purpose, and the plot is inconsistent, then the decision to kill off Shepard seems to me like an 11th hour attempt to inject some sort of fake gravitas and maturity into a soft sci-fi, space-opera. The best way I can explain it is that, to me, it feels like the story hasn't earned the right to be depressing.

Modifié par Eryri, 08 novembre 2013 - 09:29 .

[David7204]

You'd do better not equating 'depressing' to 'realistic' and 'happy' to 'fantasy.'

You're just handing your opponent the weapon they need.

Modifié par David7204, 08 novembre 2013 - 10:13 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Arguing writer's intent in this case will get you no where unless you actually were on the writing team and know for certain what the intention was. Regardless of what one might think of the writers intentions the finished product of the Catalyst is still very much a character like it or not, if it's sole purpose was exposition it wouldn't have different varients on it's speeches, nor be the thing responsible for the creation of the prime antagonists.

Does reading the leaked script qualify?

Seeing as the script was changed before we got the finished product, no it does not. Javik was the Catalyst in the leaked script IIRC, drastically different scenario.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 08 novembre 2013 - 02:48 .

[AlanC9]

David7204 wrote...

You'd do better not equating 'depressing' to 'realistic' and 'happy' to 'fantasy.'

You're just handing your opponent the weapon they need.

Unless the substance of the position is that ME ought to be an escapist power fantasy. In that case he might as well equate those things since he's gonna fight it out on that terrain anyway.

[AlanC9]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Seeing as the script was changed before we got the finished product, no it does not. Javik was the Catalyst in the leaked script IIRC, drastically different scenario.

How was the scenario actually different? I don't remember the substance of the choices as being any different, though the leaked script was a little vague.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Greylycantrope wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Arguing writer's intent in this case will get you no where unless you actually were on the writing team and know for certain what the intention was. Regardless of what one might think of the writers intentions the finished product of the Catalyst is still very much a character like it or not, if it's sole purpose was exposition it wouldn't have different varients on it's speeches, nor be the thing responsible for the creation of the prime antagonists.

Does reading the leaked script qualify?

Seeing as the script was changed before we got the finished product, no it does not. Javik was the Catalyst in the leaked script IIRC, drastically different scenario.

There were two scripts: one that was drastically different, and one that predominantly matches what we got.

And the Catalyst was in both of them, it just wasn't always called "the Catalyst" (but "the Guardian").

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 08 novembre 2013 - 04:26 .

[Yougotcarved1]

On a side note, wouldn't it be funny if Javik was the Catalyst, and was still DLC

[Deathsaurer]

KaiserShep wrote...

To be fair, the final confrontation is only part of the reveal of the reapers' goal, since the one on Rannoch prattles on about saving organics from themselves. Gotta remove that too if you remove the final choices.

It started with Harbinger. Salvation through destruction.

[3DandBeyond]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

On a side note, wouldn't it be funny if Javik was the Catalyst, and was still DLC

Yeah, it's likely that many of the original considered scripts and ideas (including those stated in the Final Hours) were altered only to become content for DLC.  Javik certainly was especially since he was day one DLC and EA's boss came out later and said just how much EA loves day one DLC-and paying for bullets.  It might even be that it was fully known that MP had to be played to even get the breath scene (original endings) and they figured they'd see if people complained about it and then claim ignorance.  It makes sense to me because there's no way they could NOT have known they were not being truthful in saying you didn't need to play MP.  Just a guess on my part but sort of backed up by all that happened there.

Also, there was the idea that Shepard was to be the catalyst so that may be where the idea of Control came from.  Who knows?  It seems clear to me that it's quite possible they'd always intended the endings come in the form of DLC (that blue screen from the original ending points to that), and that even the epilog was to be DLC.  It may well be that the "debate" over the endings squashed those plans, but since they've never really had an open discussion about all of this, it seems we'll never know.  I'm not pointing to conspiracy but merely to the direction that some games have taken where the end of the present game is not the true end of the story.

[3DandBeyond]

Deathsaurer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

To be fair, the final confrontation is only part of the reveal of the reapers' goal, since the one on Rannoch prattles on about saving organics from themselves. Gotta remove that too if you remove the final choices.

It started with Harbinger. Salvation through destruction.

Except that you can put what Harbinger said into the same context as all that Sovereign said.  And Harbinger was all about taunting AND destruction.  Sovereign was more to the point and just toyed with people-to parse what he said, he let you live when it suited him and would kill you when he wanted that.  It wasn't about saving anyone.  And what Harbinger said means little if you actually look at others in real life that have said such things.  Heaven's Gate cult, for instance.  If you just consider basic laws and what most people believe, death of the body is death.  What comes after is open to debate, but most people want as much decent body life as they can get.  What Harbinger said could merely be another form of taunting-we're saving you by destroying you-no rational person would think that means helping.  Even the truly religious are not going to say it's cool, save me.

The reaper on Rannoch also believes synthetics and organics will always fight.  That means nothing.  We aren't playing as reapers.  The person whose opinion on that matters most is the one confronting that reaper-Shepard.  BW created dialogue that I used in my game and Shepard says they don't have to fight.  That's what means the most.  So, no you don't have to remove that dialogue.  If Shepard says that, you should change the ending dialogue so that Shepard remains in character and is consistent in his/her beliefs.

Even if you don't use that dialogue there is nothing about what that dying reaper says that requires these endings exist.  If so, then what Sovereign said should matter-he knows and likes killing people.  The other stuff Harbinger says should also matter-he likes hurting and killing people.  The kid in his infinite wisdom says he's not killing people.  Uh, Sovereign and Harbinger know better.

[Yougotcarved1]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Also, there was the idea that Shepard was to be the catalyst so that may be where the idea of Control came from.  Who knows?  It seems clear to me that it's quite possible they'd always intended the endings come in the form of DLC (that blue screen from the original ending points to that), and that even the epilog was to be DLC.  It may well be that the "debate" over the endings squashed those plans, but since they've never really had an open discussion about all of this, it seems we'll never know.  I'm not pointing to conspiracy but merely to the direction that some games have taken where the end of the present game is not the true end of the story.

are you implying that you think they originally intended the EC DLC, but as a paid DLC? Then the uproar made them make it free?

Modifié par Yougotcarved1, 08 novembre 2013 - 05:00 .

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Yeah, it's likely that many of the original considered scripts and ideas (including those stated in the Final Hours) were altered only to become content for DLC.  Javik certainly was especially since he was day one DLC and EA's boss came out later and said just how much EA loves day one DLC-and paying for bullets.  

The weird thing about this is that Day One DLC and followup DLC had been EA policy for quite some before ME3 went gold. Hell, ME2 had both. And ME3 isn't a smaller game than ME2. So if Bio did somehow end up carving stuff out of an oversized ME3 to turn into DLC, something must have been awfully wrong with the original ME3 production plan.

[3DandBeyond]

David7204 wrote...

No. Mass Effect is not and never has been Lovecraft. Both the player and Shepard have always pushed to understand, to investigate, to learn more.

Well in part I agree with you here.  One of the problems with the ending is that Shepard who could ask, debate, investigate, and mull over everything really gets little in depth understanding of how this situation (new choices) came to be and just accepts the pat answers the kid gives.  There's no real disagreement beyond something similar to "I don't like that" where the kid sort of says "so what"--no, not real dialogue of course.  ME3 started with a stripped down dialogue wheel and at the end (with the inclusion of the EC), the questions being asked aren't so much challenges to or exploration of what's going on as they are more like lip service. 

Shepard: "So, kid, where you from?" 
Kid: "Well, Leviathan.  Blah blah blah.  " 
Shepard: "Why are you doing this?" 
Kid: "Because.  Blah blah blah.  Bad synthetics kill organics.  Solved by destroy..er, saving organics so they won't make bad robots." 
Shepard: "That's cool, where'd the crucible come from?" 
Kid: "Hurry up, I don't have all day and we're not talking about that." 
Shepard: "K.  Let me pick a pretty color.  I'm just dying to." 
Kid: "Ha, funny.  Nope, no dying here.  Salvation.  Read my lips.  S..A..L..V..A..T..I..O..N." 
Shepard: "K.  Got it.  So just let me commit suicide or maybe I'll kill my friends just so I can come out the other side of this." 
Kid: "Get it over with already.  Here, let me help you.  Green looks good on you."
Shepard: "Maybe I shouldn't pick one of these."
Kid: "That's not happening, idiot.  Make a choice!"
Shepard: "Oh heck.  Red, red is cool."
Kid: "Ok, but those big bad robots will come back ready to kill."
Shepard: "Still, I like red."
Kid: "Your funeral.  Heh heh.  So to speak."
Torso Shepard: "Ouch."

[TheBlackBaron]

AlanC9 wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

 The Reapers pretty much existed only to be conquered to fuel the player's power fantasy while Liara the naive virgin prostrates herself before him, blue alien ass at the ready.

Can I use this for a sig?

Sure. 

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Yeah, it's likely that many of the original considered scripts and ideas (including those stated in the Final Hours) were altered only to become content for DLC.  Javik certainly was especially since he was day one DLC and EA's boss came out later and said just how much EA loves day one DLC-and paying for bullets.  

The weird thing about this is that Day One DLC and followup DLC had been EA policy for quite some before ME3 went gold. Hell, ME2 had both. And ME3 isn't a smaller game than ME2. So if Bio did somehow end up carving stuff out of an oversized ME3 to turn into DLC, something must have been awfully wrong with the original ME3 production plan.

Sure, they'd actually already even done sort of that same thing with ME2, which is probably partly why ME2 was not as big as it could have been.  LotSB was supposed to be part of the main game and even bigger than it was as DLC (could be it was downsized because it became DLC for console reasons).  And it's debatable (though I don't much care for it) as to whether the Arrival should have been an integral part of the main game-considering how it could have been used as a springboard for things if it had been it's kind of my thought that it should have been.

EA just implemented policies, just like the one where they now say MP will be included with every game.  And they created the one time use online code (now abandoned, replaced by online registration I think) that other games started to follow.  Of course also the microtransactions that are quickly becoming the industry standard.

And all game devs seem to be doing variations of this sort of thing.  Some of it even comes from fan wishlists-I've played games where the devs were deadset against DLC and never included it in their games, feeling a game should be released as a whole game.  Fans kept asking for more of the game, wanting DLC, so it was created.

My thinking is that ME3 began to be too big of a game (I've said for a long time now, I think they'd have done better to release it in 2 parts) partly also because of consoles.  The PS3 version at least of a big ME3 could have included more content on disk, but it's likely that having it be a 2 disk version and then the xbox version ending up on 3 or more disks might have seemed a bit much to them so they started carving it up.  I do fully believe they'd have done better to create a volume 1 with the reapers entering the galaxy and the buildup to war, and a volume 2 as the war to save the galaxy.  They actually could have released DLC for both, but not this optional but needed content.

As it is it even seems odd that when the game starts, you have reapers tearing into Palaven and Earth at about the same time and rate, later on Thessia, Tuchanka, but the focus instantly is Earth and almost entirely about that being the line in the sand-save Earth at all costs.  Basing this all on what happens on Palaven (you know Turians being the toughies with best ships and all), why doesn't Earth quickly suffer the same fate?  Sure, I know, human exceptionalism, ugh.  Had they created a part 1 and part 2, there might have been more room to show and explain more.  Even time to lay foundations for the (double ugh) current endings and all that in some better way--could have brought up the Leviathans and could have had a natural point at which later on Leviathan DLC would have explained them more fully, but with groundwork for their existence already known.  Just an idea of what I think might have made even what is somewhat better.  Still flawed for me, of course.

[3DandBeyond]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

 The Reapers pretty much existed only to be conquered to fuel the player's power fantasy while Liara the naive virgin prostrates herself before him, blue alien ass at the ready.

Can I use this for a sig?

Sure. 

Ok but he might be a she and well that imagery is just something I really want out of my brain now.  Does this mean the reapers were like foreplay?

[JamesFaith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Yeah, it's likely that many of the original considered scripts and ideas (including those stated in the Final Hours) were altered only to become content for DLC.  Javik certainly was especially since he was day one DLC and EA's boss came out later and said just how much EA loves day one DLC-and paying for bullets.  

Or they were simply not altered, but recycled?

Like idea of last Protehan who is part of final solution, but who later completely lost purpose after implementation of Catalyst? One idea is cut from one story because it doesnť fit well and then re-used in another after little alternation because it would be waste or pity not use it - normal thing. I'm doing it all the time during writting.

[3DandBeyond]

JamesFaith wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Yeah, it's likely that many of the original considered scripts and ideas (including those stated in the Final Hours) were altered only to become content for DLC.  Javik certainly was especially since he was day one DLC and EA's boss came out later and said just how much EA loves day one DLC-and paying for bullets.  

Or they were simply not altered, but recycled?

Like idea of last Protehan who is part of final solution, but who later completely lost purpose after implementation of Catalyst? One idea is cut from one story because it doesnť fit well and then re-used in another after little alternation because it would be waste or pity not use it - normal thing. I'm doing it all the time during writting.

True.  One of the big mistakes of ME3 is the lost opportunity in using Javik to really get some context as to all that happened during his time.  Since he was DLC, his content had to be dumbed down, so he had to be of course.  The Rachni too could have also helped to explain events that took place which could have been important.  The Rachni have racial memory and had been advanced by the Protheans to be warriors for them, so they might know something, but no one seems curious about any of this. 

And it would have been impossible for them to adequately create a much bigger important story for Javik since he was an optional but necessary character.  The Thessia quest really straddled the line because without Javik it's just weak soup.

[KaiserShep]

Deathsaurer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

To be fair, the final confrontation is only part of the reveal of the reapers' goal, since the one on Rannoch prattles on about saving organics from themselves. Gotta remove that too if you remove the final choices.

It started with Harbinger. Salvation through destruction.

That stuff always struck a similar chord to religious fanaticism, especially considering the repetitive lines he spouted in combat (Harby's prayer lol). It felt like cheap throwaway lines being spewed by a machine that's obviously been hitting the cosmic sauce and reading the Necronomicon.

[dreamgazer]

Deathsaurer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

To be fair, the final confrontation is only part of the reveal of the reapers' goal, since the one on Rannoch prattles on about saving organics from themselves. Gotta remove that too if you remove the final choices.

It started with Harbinger. Salvation through destruction.

"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution".

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

True.  One of the big mistakes of ME3 is the lost opportunity in using Javik to really get some context as to all that happened during his time.  Since he was DLC, his content had to be dumbed down, so he had to be of course.  The Rachni too could have also helped to explain events that took place which could have been important.  The Rachni have racial memory and had been advanced by the Protheans to be warriors for them, so they might know something, but no one seems curious about any of this. 

This is only a mistake if you think the Protheans should have been important in the first place. I never saw them as anything really special. Except for getting lucky and sabotaging the Citadel, they're just another cycle.

[KaiserShep]

The one truly important thing about the protheans gets tossed out the moment you find out that they did not craft the relays or the citadel.

[Ravensword]

dreamgazer wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

To be fair, the final confrontation is only part of the reveal of the reapers' goal, since the one on Rannoch prattles on about saving organics from themselves. Gotta remove that too if you remove the final choices.

It started with Harbinger. Salvation through destruction.

"We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution".

"Prepare these humans for ascension."

Ascension=Reaper slurpee.