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#76
AlanC9

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Troxa wrote...
Conventionally, stories have an antagonist and a protagonist. They are in opposition to each other because of conflicting goals and/or values. The ending of Mass Effect chooses to use the last ten-minutes of the story to pull a “Big Reveal” moment with the Catalyst where Shepard learns that the cycle of extinction exists to preserve organic life. So, if the conflict is synthetics vs. organics – surprise! – the Reapers have been working to preserve organics this whole time.

But that means there is no more conflict of goals between the antagonist and protagonist. The conflicting goal that has existed throughout the entire series is brushed aside, and this mutual goal is put in its place, leaving only a conflict of values and methods.


Note that Bio seems to have positively liked the idea of destabilising the narrative this way. In the Dark Energy plot the Reapers and Shepard also shared the same goals in the end. I like the idea of doing this myself -- at least in theory -- but that's because I'm one of those hipster elitist types.

It's not really important, but I'm not totally clear on what you mean by "value" in this context. Don't values come before goals? Otherwise how do you know which goal to pursue?

But the true conflict between Batman and the Joker - in the context of a story - is one of morals and values. Batman can’t compromise his values on this point, because getting Batman to compromise his values on this point is the Joker’s goal. The day Batman snaps and kills the Joker, the Joker has finally won.


Note that Batman is making a serious mistake here, assuming this is actually what he's doing. Whether the Joker considers something a victory or not should not be Batman's concern; Batman should be doing what he himself thinks is right rather than paying attention to the Joker's beliefs. Batman does finally figure this out in The Dark Knight Returns, though of course that book is non-canon.

Edit: It's not any kind of mistake for Batman to refuse to compromise his values if he just doesn't think they ought to be compromised, of course. But if he did think compromising was the right thing to do, it would still be the right thing to do even if the Joker wanted him to do it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 novembre 2013 - 07:51 .


#77
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By the end of the game, I didn't care about differing goals or values.. I didn't care about any of this high level stuff. I can't intellectualize it much. I just hated the Reapers in a visceral way. None of it is realistic, but basically it's just being on the opposite side of horror and oppression. The only thing to do is fight back. They just needed to die.

But if I have any real "reason" to hate them other than blind hate, it's that they distract me from what I ended up loving about the rest of the game experience. It's a crappy plot constantly getting in your face and overriding the thousands of better potential plots I'd rather experience in a game universe like this. The story always sucked, but the backdrop didn't suck. I think they kind of realize this in the last scene, with the Stargazer saying how there are a million stories out in space. I just wish Shepard would have been allowed to experience more of those stories. Most of that character's game life revolved around Reapers. Which sucks. I didn't want Shepard defined by them. Even Jack says Shepard's true love is the Reapers. "Too bad because I'm a better lay.." God, that sucks. haha

Modifié par StreetMagic, 02 novembre 2013 - 07:38 .


#78
KaiserShep

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StreetMagic wrote...

By the end of the game, I didn't care about differing goals or values.. I didn't care about any of this high level stuff. I can't intellectualize it much. I just hated the Reapers in a visceral way. None of it is realistic, but basically it's just being on the opposite side of horror and oppression. The only thing to do is fight back. They just needed to die.


Yeah that's kind of the way I see it. I like to approach the reapers in the simplest way possible, because that's how I would see them if I observed them firsthand anyway. People would only be concerned about understanding the monsters so far as to wish to understand the best way to make them all die. Like the aliens running the kaiju in Pacific Rim. What the aliens wanted was all details. What mattered the most was knowing how to pass a weapon through the breach to give them the kiss of death.

#79
Mathias

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Mass Effect 1 and 2 were both amazing experiences. Mass Effect 3 was just a slide into depression and disbelief. Everything, everything we had done, fought for, fell in love with, was all leading up to an ending that was basically some hamfisted "Eh....you never know."

#80
Reorte

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KaiserShep wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

By the end of the game, I didn't care about differing goals or values.. I didn't care about any of this high level stuff. I can't intellectualize it much. I just hated the Reapers in a visceral way. None of it is realistic, but basically it's just being on the opposite side of horror and oppression. The only thing to do is fight back. They just needed to die.


Yeah that's kind of the way I see it. I like to approach the reapers in the simplest way possible, because that's how I would see them if I observed them firsthand anyway. People would only be concerned about understanding the monsters so far as to wish to understand the best way to make them all die. Like the aliens running the kaiju in Pacific Rim. What the aliens wanted was all details. What mattered the most was knowing how to pass a weapon through the breach to give them the kiss of death.

That's because there wasn't anything much else to the Reapers, To successfuly pull off the twist there needed to be some hints of complexity to them before then. A not completely stupid motivation would've helped too so that I would've been left wondering "maybe they have a point" even if I didn't think that the ends justified the means.

#81
SwobyJ

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StreetMagic wrote...

By the end of the game, I didn't care about differing goals or values.. I didn't care about any of this high level stuff. I can't intellectualize it much. I just hated the Reapers in a visceral way. None of it is realistic, but basically it's just being on the opposite side of horror and oppression. The only thing to do is fight back. They just needed to die.


Good. The narrative expressed this throughout.

But if I have any real "reason" to hate them other than blind hate, it's that they distract me from what I ended up loving about the rest of the game experience. It's a crappy plot constantly getting in your face and overriding the thousands of better potential plots I'd rather experience in a game universe like this. The story always sucked, but the backdrop didn't suck. I think they kind of realize this in the last scene, with the Stargazer saying how there are a million stories out in space. I just wish Shepard would have been allowed to experience more of those stories. Most of that character's game life revolved around Reapers. Which sucks. I didn't want Shepard defined by them. Even Jack says Shepard's true love is the Reapers. "Too bad because I'm a better lay.." God, that sucks. haha


Not so good.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 02 novembre 2013 - 04:23 .


#82
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SwobyJ wrote...


Not so good.


They did the same with Jacob, with his lines about how Shep couldn't leave the Normandy and his/her way of life. I think it was partly why Jacob ditched Shep.

They made up for it with the Citadel DLC at least, but it was a mistake in how they conceptualized Shepard in ME3 in general. Nothing mattered but the Reapers. He was like one of those NES characters, who do nothing but jump from big combat setpieces to another. The little times you get to express something else is with Liara (who's also a workaholic type, where Shep can try to say there's more than just her work) - except only some people care about Liara.

Citadel went in the other extreme, where everything became like a slice-of-life anime.. but if they had scattered more social stuff like that within the game itself more often, it would have been an amazing game to me from the start.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 02 novembre 2013 - 05:47 .


#83
Mcfly616

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It's been blatantly obvious since the very first game that Shepard's story/fate is entwined with the Reapers. That shouldn't have came as a surprise to anyone. That was his destiny. That was his story.

There's infinite amounts of possibilities for other stories within the MEU. Those will be someone else's story.

#84
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Mcfly616 wrote...

It's been blatantly obvious since the very first game that Shepard's story/fate is entwined with the Reapers. That shouldn't have came as a surprise to anyone. That was his destiny. That was his story.

There's infinite amounts of possibilities for other stories within the MEU. Those will be someone else's story.


Yes, but you were fighting to be part of those stories too. To have the right to life/self-determination/what have you. You weren't fighting the reapers for the sake of it, or because there was some cosmic connection you couldn't pull away from. If so, that's a damn shame.

I understand if Shep doesn't make it, but I don't like the idea of that being the mental impetus. Just like the soldiers who stormed the Normandy beaches.. they were fighting for their way of life, for their homes, for their countries, etc.. Not because they were entwined with the war itself and couldn't pull away.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:02 .


#85
Mcfly616

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StreetMagic wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

It's been blatantly obvious since the very first game that Shepard's story/fate is entwined with the Reapers. That shouldn't have came as a surprise to anyone. That was his destiny. That was his story.

There's infinite amounts of possibilities for other stories within the MEU. Those will be someone else's story.


Yes, but you were fighting to be part of those stories too. To have the right to life/self-determination/what have you. You weren't fighting the reapers for the sake of it, or because there was some cosmic connection you couldn't pull away from. If so, that's a damn shame.

I understand if Shep doesn't make it, but I don't like the idea of that being the mental impetus. Just like the soldiers who stormed the Normandy beaches.. they were fighting for their way of life, for their homes, for their countries, etc.. Not because they were entwined with the war itself and couldn't pull away.

lol

Fictional videogame......actual historical event.....yeah, I'm thinking BW gets a pass. Plenty of fictional heroes have a calling and a destiny. It's not new. We're not gonna start critiquing Neo's journey and comparing it to those fine soldiers on Omaha Beach.

Fighting the Reapers for the sake of it? Hmm orrrr he was doing it to save everybody.


You know, you complain when something about ME is "realistic" and true to life.....but then you get on its case when it's not true to life. Which way do you want it? Because it doesn't work both ways. (Well, apparently on the BSN it does)

#86
Deverz

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StreetMagic wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

It's been blatantly obvious since the very first game that Shepard's story/fate is entwined with the Reapers. That shouldn't have came as a surprise to anyone. That was his destiny. That was his story.

There's infinite amounts of possibilities for other stories within the MEU. Those will be someone else's story.


Yes, but you were fighting to be part of those stories too. To have the right to life/self-determination/what have you. You weren't fighting the reapers for the sake of it, or because there was some cosmic connection you couldn't pull away from. If so, that's a damn shame.

I understand if Shep doesn't make it, but I don't like the idea of that being the mental impetus. Just like the soldiers who stormed the Normandy beaches.. they were fighting for their way of life, for their homes, for their countries, etc.. Not because they were entwined with the war itself and couldn't pull away.


Bioware made it clear that they wanted Shepard to become this mystical and important, almost religious figure in history, known only as "The Shepard". Shepard can (almost literally) ascend into Godhood. It was Shepard's destiny. I'm sure there are some poetic analogues to be made, similar to The Matrix or The Book of the New Sun.

Though I did not like how ME3 tried to make it all mysterious and mystical. Way too artsy fartsy for my tastes.

Modifié par Deverz, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:19 .


#87
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They didn't make that clear until the last game. There were a few allusions (like the "Lazarus" project), but the presentation seemed to just be.. Shepard was just a soldier (scratch that, a good soldier), thrust into an incredible situation after Eden Prime. There was always a casual/human element to how you could roleplay Shepard though. And they realized that again with the Citadel DLC.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:23 .


#88
Obadiah

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@Deverz
Moses and the promised land mixed with a little Lawrence of Arabia.

Modifié par Obadiah, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:26 .


#89
Mcfly616

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I can understand that. Everybody has their own perspectives, likes and dislikes.

#90
Deverz

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StreetMagic wrote...

They didn't make that clear until the last game. There were a few allusions (like the "Lazarus" project), but the presentation seemed to just be.. Shepard was just a soldier (scratch that, a good soldier), thrust into an incredible situation after Eden Prime. There was always a casual/human element to how you could roleplay Shepard though. And they realized that again with the Citadel DLC.


Yeah that's what I meant actually... sorry for not making that clear. That's why I said I didn't like how ME3 tried to be mystical, while ME1-2 were fairly grounded in reality (as much as sci-fi can, for what it's worth :P ).

Modifié par Deverz, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:25 .


#91
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Fair enough. I guess I just prefer ME1/ME2's take on it more. ME3 was cool in how grandscale it could be at times (fighting Reapers head on, saving entire species and sh!t), but I feel like I lost the more lowkey bits I liked at times. I didn't want to be a giant. Fortunately, you can at least still roleplay Shep that way till the end. There's that one Soldier on Earth who tells you your arrival is a huge morale booster.. But you can tell him "Hey man, I'm just one guy.."

edit: I also like the original/cut ending with Anderson. It humanized Shep more.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:30 .


#92
Deverz

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Well it kinda makes sense. Shepard (with a little help from his friends) saved the galaxy from Space-Cthulhu. I suppose the common denominator would go "shepard, r you a wizard", and create cults that worshipped him as the saviour of the galaxy.

That's why I hope the next ME isn't so grand in scale. I'd like to play another ME game that's not so bogged down in mysticism.

#93
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Deverz wrote...

Well it kinda makes sense. Shepard (with a little help from his friends) saved the galaxy from Space-Cthulhu. I suppose the common denominator would go "shepard, r you a wizard", and create cults that worshipped him as the saviour of the galaxy.

That's why I hope the next ME isn't so grand in scale. I'd like to play another ME game that's not so bogged down in mysticism.


Like I said, that mysticism was shot down a bit in Citadel. I just think they should have done it sooner.

Another good line is with the clone.. "What makes you so special?!" or something like that. He then looks at Brooks, who turns her head away, while Shep is pulled up by his friends. That's what made Shep special. Love, friendship, etc..

#94
Deverz

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StreetMagic wrote...

Deverz wrote...

Well it kinda makes sense. Shepard (with a little help from his friends) saved the galaxy from Space-Cthulhu. I suppose the common denominator would go "shepard, r you a wizard", and create cults that worshipped him as the saviour of the galaxy.

That's why I hope the next ME isn't so grand in scale. I'd like to play another ME game that's not so bogged down in mysticism.


Like I said, that mysticism was shot down a bit in Citadel. I just think they should have done it sooner.

Another good line is with the clone.. "What makes you so special?!" or something like that. He then looks at Brooks, who turns her head away, while Shep is pulled up by his friends. That's what made Shep special. Love, friendship, etc..


Ah yes, good catch. They threw away a lot of mystical stuff in the DLC, thankfully. I still wish they'd removed the Stargazer scene though, lol. But I guess they couldn't because Buzz Aldrin.

Modifié par Deverz, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:56 .


#95
Xamufam

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Enter Mass Effect

Mass Effect, and the controversy surrounding the ending of the final installment of the trilogy, is a prime example of Fake Things that represent Real Things, and the different ways different members of an audience can interpret a work of art, regardless of creator intent.

The creators have stated that Mass Effect is about synthetics vs. organics.

That paragraph isn’t any longer because the creators have been largely silent about the work ever since the widely negative fan reaction to the ending of Mass Effect 3.

Without any clear, concise announcement of Grand Authorial Intent to address the big gaping hole where a timely, relevant theme should be, we are left with our interpretation. While individual interpretations vary as wildly as individuals, fan reaction to the end of the Mass Effect trilogy can be broken down into four broad categories:

1) It’s a beautiful poem about stopping by some woods on a snowy evening.

Many fans embrace the literal intent of the authors, either because they always saw Mass Effect as the story of a literal conflict between synthetic and organic life with no deeper allegorical meaning except for the ending, or because this literal conflict and the three ending options don’t contradict their thoughts and feelings on any thematic conclusions they drew from the text up to that point. These fans did not see any thematic inconsistencies and were able to wholeheartedly embrace the original ending of Mass Effect.

2) Snow is depressing. As are woods. And why is the guy alone? Where’s his girlfriend?

The original ending of Mass Effect is, unquestionably, a downer. The mass relays are destroyed, Commander Shepard dies, and galactic civilization as we know it has ended. Some interpretations of the original included such delightful scenarios as: the combined military might of the galaxy is stranded around Earth, turians and quarians die of starvation, and everyone on the Citadel dies in a fiery explosion. For these fans, the intended ‘bittersweet’ ending completely missed the mark and landed squarely in ‘bitter’. This group points out that the ending is disappointing.

3) Wait, I thought I was reading a poem

This group of fans knows narrative. They know storytelling convention backwards and forwards, from the introduction/rising-action/climax/falling-action/denoument dramatic structure – which the original ending of the Mass Effect trilogy eschews – to the basic nature of the protagonist/antagonist relationship (protip: using the antagonist as the mouthpiece to present all the final ending options is a narrative no-no). This group also includes fans with a deep understanding of the lore and setting of the Mass Effect universe and an eye for plot-holes and inconsistencies. This group is very aware of the fact that every installment of Mass Effect is conventionally structured, adheres to genre standards, and was very well-written within the confines of standard narrative conventions – and found the sudden disregard for all of the basic elements of the craft of storytelling jarring and off-putting. This group points out that the ending doesn’t make sense.

4) I don’t even know you anymore.

For these fans, it was not the “downer” of the original ending, but the problematic themes of the ending options that present the real problem. Mass Effect, in the final twenty minutes, turned into something completely unexpected – in a bad way – shredding and negating every piece of thematic interpretation they’d made about what it all meant up to that point. The idea that Mass Effect was ever about a literal conflict between synthetic and organic life, rather than an allegory that used the Reapers to represent something else entirely, was completely foreign to them – and the allegory they saw in the text was entirely incompatible with the ending. In the context of their interpretation of the themes of Mass Effect, the thematic implications of the ending are revolting, and morally repugnant. This group points out that the ending is horrifying.

The controversy surrounding the ending of Mass Effect is simply that the number of fans who fell into groups two, three and four vastly outnumbered the fans who fell into group one according to every available poll on the subject. These fans, many of whom invested a great deal of time and money into the franchise and 100+ hours per run-through of the trilogy as a whole, felt very upset over an ending that was so wholly disappointing for so many fans on so many levels.

Fans in group one – and the creators themselves – have displayed a combination of confusion and irritation at the reaction of the rest of the fans. Usually lumping everyone into group two, or using dismissive, condescending language like “they just don’t get it”, the backlash against the backlash has almost been as vitriolic as the initial backlash itself.

While I cannot speak to anyone else’s interpretation of the ending of Mass Effect, I can say that I fall into groups two, three, and four. I find the ending of the Mass Effect trilogy completely awful on three different levels.

#96
AlanC9

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Troxa wrote...
The creators have stated that Mass Effect is about synthetics vs. organics.


Where did they say this? I don't remember them being very forthcoming about stuff.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 novembre 2013 - 11:44 .


#97
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The only time I've seen that intent (organics vs synthetics) explicitly spelled out was in that hoax/leak/whatchamacallit controversial posting of pseudo-Patrick Weekes saying:

Casey and our lead deciding that they didn't need to be peer-reviewe.d

And again, it shows.

If you'd asked me the themes of Mass Effect 3, I'd break them down as:

Galactic Alliances

Friends

Organics versus Synthetics

In my personal opinion, the first two got a perfunctory nod. We did get a goodbye to our friends, but it was in a scene that was divorced from the gameplay -- a deliberate "nothing happens here" area with one turret thrown in for no reason I really understand, except possibly to obfuscate the "nothing happens here"-ness.


Whoever wrote it though pointed out the flaw about the relationships. Even if it wasn't Weekes.

#98
Obadiah

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AlanC9 wrote...

Troxa wrote...
The creators have stated that Mass Effect is about synthetics vs. organics.


Where did they say this? I don't remember them being very forthcoming about stuff.

I think it was Patrick Weekes(?) in an interview that said it was one af a few running themes in the Mass Effect series they could use for the 3rd game. I think on his list he said it was third or second.

#99
SwobyJ

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StreetMagic wrote...

The only time I've seen that intent (organics vs synthetics) explicitly spelled out was in that hoax/leak/whatchamacallit controversial posting of pseudo-Patrick Weekes saying:

Casey and our lead deciding that they didn't need to be peer-reviewe.d

And again, it shows.

If you'd asked me the themes of Mass Effect 3, I'd break them down as:

Galactic Alliances

Friends

Organics versus Synthetics

In my personal opinion, the first two got a perfunctory nod. We did get a goodbye to our friends, but it was in a scene that was divorced from the gameplay -- a deliberate "nothing happens here" area with one turret thrown in for no reason I really understand, except possibly to obfuscate the "nothing happens here"-ness.


Whoever wrote it though pointed out the flaw about the relationships. Even if it wasn't Weekes.


That does not connect with what Weekes has actually stated before, which put Organics vs Synthetics as a very important theme. I wish I could find the actual interview, but I believe it was before ME3 came out :S. I could swear he mentioned it though.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't read you properly. Yes, it does appear that they chose to focus on the more cosmic conflict instead of how alliances and friendships relate to it. Heck, maybe just to disjoint things enough that we wouldn't remember the opinions of the crew? ;) Remember that whole 'not making decisions in a moral vaccum' (heh, vaccum..) thing with EDI?

I think all of this was very deliberate. However, it didn't really work. You can't just toss us in the pit at the very end.
However, this does make the Catalyst a sort of final boss. How we need to remember everything before it if we want to make the 'best' decision. Yet still, only EC seemed to take any sort of proper note of what a great many 'smaller picture' players found important.

I don't trust the supposed post by Weekes though. Could be real, maybe.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 03 novembre 2013 - 12:05 .


#100
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Yeah, it was incredibly lonely at the end. For a game with relationships as a strong factor, it was pretty empty as the story winded down. At least depending on who those relationships were (I love all of Weekes characters myself). And for a game that made Galactic Alliances so important, Priority Earth (the mission itself) sucked in general (never mind the ending. That's hardly the problem, in my opinion. At least for me, the basic concepts are OK. The Crucible is "good enough".).

Modifié par StreetMagic, 03 novembre 2013 - 12:15 .