447 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

Yeah, it was incredibly lonely at the end. For a game with relationships as a strong factor, it was pretty empty as the story closed down. And for a game that made Galactic Alliances so important, Priority Earth (the mission itself) sucked in general (never mind the ending. That's hardly the problem, in my opinion. At least for me, the basic concepts are OK. The Crucible is "good enough".).

That's why I think that the ending of ME3 was more about what we may be dealing with in the next game, than the actual conclusion of WHAT IS.

And while an interesting approach, if true, it just didn't... work. Maybe in the long run people will look at it fondly, but right now, it's viewed at with still even *rage* by people. Freaking *rage*?! 0_0

They isolate Shepard, and like the Doctor, he should never be alone because only bad things happen when Shepard's alone. And while maybe that was the point, it's a much more dismal state for us players seeing all this, than probably for Bioware themselves (who obviously just create the whole thing and test it over and over again, instead of get themselves 100% immersed in the story during it).

They knew they'd be issues; just not THIS many.


I really hope EC wasn't planned to sell in advance. That's... disgusting to think about, and I don't even want to go there past this sentence

[Iakus]

StreetMagic wrote...

Yeah, it was incredibly lonely at the end. For a game with relationships as a strong factor, it was pretty empty as the story winded down. At least depending on who those relationships were (I love all of Weekes characters myself). And for a game that made Galactic Alliances so important, Priority Earth (the mission itself) sucked in general (never mind the ending. That's hardly the problem, in my opinion. At least for me, the basic concepts are OK. The Crucible is "good enough".).

"But take heart, look around you.  You are not in this fight alone"

Except in the end, Shepard was laone.  Decided the fate of the galaxy alone.  And died alone while everyone else ran away.

[SwobyJ]

iakus wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Yeah, it was incredibly lonely at the end. For a game with relationships as a strong factor, it was pretty empty as the story winded down. At least depending on who those relationships were (I love all of Weekes characters myself). And for a game that made Galactic Alliances so important, Priority Earth (the mission itself) sucked in general (never mind the ending. That's hardly the problem, in my opinion. At least for me, the basic concepts are OK. The Crucible is "good enough".).

"But take heart, look around you.  You are not in this fight alone"

Except in the end, Shepard was laone.  Decided the fate of the galaxy alone.  And died alone while everyone else ran away.

I think there's a point to this, and him saying these words.

Consider all of this as Shepard's Loyalty Mission to himself.

Doesn't make it any more satisfying for the player, but it may (at least to me) reveal where the developers were coming from.

Shepard has to remember that he's not alone, and that he's making a decision for all of the people he's met, and hopefully had full and informative conversations with. Then you make the moral choice.

And remember that Loyalty in ME2 didn't just make someone a more clearheaded and competent fighter - but in fact brought them to fight all the harder, stronger, faster in co-operation with others than they would have otherwise (thus bringing things like higher invisible Defense Score at Holding the Line)..

ME1 - 3:00

ME2 - 0:35

ME3?? - http://youtu.be/8o_C18ytst0

What may rise...From Ashes?

Modifié par SwobyJ, 03 novembre 2013 - 12:37 .

[Xamufam]

SwobyJ wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

The only time I've seen that intent (organics vs synthetics) explicitly spelled out was in that hoax/leak/whatchamacallit controversial posting of pseudo-Patrick Weekes saying:

Casey and our lead deciding that they didn't need to be peer-reviewe.d

And again, it shows.

If you'd asked me the themes of Mass Effect 3, I'd break them down as:

Galactic Alliances

Friends

Organics versus Synthetics

In my personal opinion, the first two got a perfunctory nod. We did get a goodbye to our friends, but it was in a scene that was divorced from the gameplay -- a deliberate "nothing happens here" area with one turret thrown in for no reason I really understand, except possibly to obfuscate the "nothing happens here"-ness.

Whoever wrote it though pointed out the flaw about the relationships. Even if it wasn't Weekes.

That does not connect with what Weekes has actually stated before, which put Organics vs Synthetics as a very important theme. I wish I could find the actual interview, but I believe it was before ME3 came out :S. I could swear he mentioned it though.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't read you properly. Yes, it does appear that they chose to focus on the more cosmic conflict instead of how alliances and friendships relate to it. Heck, maybe just to disjoint things enough that we wouldn't remember the opinions of the crew? Remember that whole 'not making decisions in a moral vaccum' (heh, vaccum..) thing with EDI?

I think all of this was very deliberate. However, it didn't really work. You can't just toss us in the pit at the very end.
However, this does make the Catalyst a sort of final boss. How we need to remember everything before it if we want to make the 'best' decision. Yet still, only EC seemed to take any sort of proper note of what a great many 'smaller picture' players found important.

I don't trust the supposed post by Weekes though. Could be real, maybe.

There was a tweet by patrick that confirmed it, can't find it now but here is something else
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234/1

[SwobyJ]

Thanks Troxa! Ok, I kinda remember this tweet from the whole post-ME3 period

And yeah my first response paragraph above was due to a misread so basically disregard that part.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 03 novembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[SwobyJ]

All writers have to fight for their ideas in game development. TBH Bioware actually gives much more freedom than most companies, from what I know of the scene in Montreal at least (which really isn't that much, but yeah).

I honestly hope that the top guys take some lessons from this and know, truly KNOW, that in a narrative-based RPG, the characters are friggin *paramount* to us seeing the bigger concept stuff. This isn't a more highbrow sci-fi novel where you could just have a couple characters discussing metaphysics in a bubble for 500 pages.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 03 novembre 2013 - 12:52 .

[Xamufam]

The way synthesis works in the game does not work in that universe

Modifié par Troxa, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:22 .

[SwobyJ]

I was looking forward to getting 8 default ME3 squadmates, not 6-7.

Jack would have totally, and perfectly, filled out the Biotic field of squadmates. Instead we got Liara, Javik only if you have DLC, and Kaidan if he's in your file. That's not enough, and I calculated this stuff!!

All that would have been needed is to make her default for new ME3 games.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 03 novembre 2013 - 01:00 .

[Deathsaurer]

What I think is needed for the current story to work is a mission before Sanctuary where you get confronted by the Catalyst with it trying to understand what drives you and it actually makes an argument for its actions. Imagine if it had said to you to picture watching the Morning War hundreds of times over only instead of the AI race letting their creators flee they eliminated them all. Then the Leviathans roll in and destroy the AIs time and time again. Your only task in life is to stop this from happening but you always fail. If they're going to die anyways wouldn't it be better to store them in Reaper bodies so something is always left?

It needs to be developed as a character, before the end. It needs to indicate there are doubts about its conclusions, that it thinks it might not be seeing a piece of the puzzle. It needs to feel alive instead of coming off simply as a plot device.

[AlanC9]

Troxa wrote...
There was a tweet by patrick that confirmed it, can't find it now but here is something else
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234/1

Thanks. I'd forgotten that thread. Weird that Weekes seems to find it plausible that EDI survived pre-EC Destroy. Nobody was ever able to produce a vid of that happening.

[SwobyJ]

Sadly I think they only way the Intelligence can be developed as a character after this is in a sequel. Seeing as how almost uniformly people are against that here, we can only see it happening if the writers/lead devs push for it regardless of its response.

However, I think the point of the Intelligence is that for all its power, it does NOT feel alive, let alone communicate that to us. Even EDI is illustrated as a far, far, far more alive 'person' than the Reaper God, and that is an irony I wish was more directly shown.

Hell, he 'loses' no matter what.

Synthesis - Personal defeat, even EDI can be more alive than he ever, ever, ever could be now; but not just EDI, but EVERYONE (though Synthesis is up for debate until any sequel ever happens, if ever)
Control - Ideological defeat, ShepReaper seems to be capable of managing the galaxy's advancement far more than he ever, ever, ever could
Defeat - Literal defeat, he is killed, possibly never to return, even if Reaper tech or other AI arrives again

[Obadiah]

I think Shep is alone at the end to be sort of a sin-eater. They've all got basic sacrifices built in, and Shepard makes the decision so the rest of the galaxy does not have accept responsibility for it.

Nobody even know what happened in the Decision Chamber unless Shepard survives and tells them.

Modifié par Obadiah, 03 novembre 2013 - 01:47 .

[Deathsaurer]

SwobyJ wrote...

Sadly I think they only way the Intelligence can be developed as a character after this is in a sequel. Seeing as how almost uniformly people are against that here, we can only see it happening if the writers/lead devs push for it regardless of its response.

Well I don't think it should at this point. It should have been developed in ME3 but that ship has sailed. Hindsight is perfect and all that.

However, I think the point of the Intelligence is that for all its power, it does NOT feel alive, let alone communicate that to us. Even EDI is illustrated as a far, far, far more alive 'person' than the Reaper God, and that is an irony I wish was more directly shown.

And that ties into what I said about missing a piece of the puzzle. It has never really tried to grow as an individual, it stuck steadfast to the directive the Leviathans gave it taking it to a twisted and brutal place. Thinking it was smarter than everyone else. It needs to doubt this before the ending for it to work IMO. It needs a Legion moment.

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Troxa wrote...
There was a tweet by patrick that confirmed it, can't find it now but here is something else
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234/1

Thanks. I'd forgotten that thread. Weird that Weekes seems to find it plausible that EDI survived pre-EC Destroy. Nobody was ever able to produce a vid of that happening.

I guess the reasoning might be with high EMS, the energy is somehow very focused on bonafide Reaper technology. Maybe? While EDI isn't purely Reaper based, so avoids the brunt of the attack. Same goes for whatever synthetic tech Shep may have (if he does at all), hence the breath scene in high EMS.

I have ideas on that, but they're too wacky for most people. I'll put in spoiler tag, but I warn you, without tons of context and maybe understanding of the sci-fi genre examples themselves, you're free to just wave it off.
Maybe do a trilogy playthrough looking for details of how this could, or couldn't be.

EDIT: Well, this forum sucks. No spoiler tags and I can't successfully change the text color

DONT READ PAST HERE IF YOU DON'T WANT THE CRAZY DONT READ PAST HERE IF YOU DON'T WANT THE CRAZY




-The Shepard we play as is actually the gradually indoctrinated mind that is being quantum entangled with first Sovereign (easily resisted); then after we die and are brought back as 'Shepard 2.0', it is with Harbinger (which we still resist), and finally in ME3, it is with what I'll call the Ultimate Intelligence.

-The space adventures we're doing is based on real events, but with a gap. Remember in Citadel DLC maybe, of the accounts saying that ZAKERA WARD was DESTROYED after Sovereign's attack? Wait, didn't we spend almost all our Citadel time there? Remember the bit in Leviathan DLC of people actually losing whole years of their lives just by being enthralled? Yet to both Leviathan and the Intelligence/Catalyst, we start off 'on our knees'.... (There's so much more than just this, but I suggest playing through it all, especially ME3 and its DLCs)

-What we're playing in is what I term an 'Indoctrination Overlay' of events. Where do you think people go when they're being indoctrinated? For Saren, it was directly by Sovereign, and he seemed delusional of his actions. For Benezia, she was trapped behind her mind, unable to stop her alternate personality from doing things, and as far as we know, it's indoctrination through Saren, not Sovereign... Where am I getting with this? We're playing someone who is the next evolution of Saren, believing everything is going well even as we're leading the galaxy to its doom. Our squadmates... which Bioware actually calls 'henchmen' are also trapped and while we're seeing their 'true good selves', it's still in a virtual space while their real bodies are actually doing much darker actions. Liara's Shadow Broker routine is an ever so slight breaking of that wall, but only slightly. This also explains your dealings throughout the series - whether it be with Cerberus, or talking to the Council, or almost anything else. We can be true to our real selves (close to FailShep really, or the 'Default Playthrough'), or like our real selves but kickass in this trilogy world (Renegade), or seaching for a higher purpose and genuine relationships with others (Paragon), or in ME3 go outright into Miracletown and achieve things that shouldn't even be quickly possible (Cure, Peace, Synthesis).

-While we're doing all this, we're essentially the 'entangled' particles between another entity, and Shepard's body. As such, when doing Citadel DLC (which is basically a on-again-off again refuge in Shepard's mind created by him, JUST LIKE Benezia was able to block off a part of her own consciousness... where she probably drempt of being with Liara ), the Real/CloneShepard partially breaches us. While Shepard's mind has to flimsily make sense of all this (Cerberus cover story... a clone? LOL EVIL CLONE HA), just like how the ME3 ending environments seem more based on memory than anything else, CloneShepard seeks to take over Shepard's 'life' here entirely. He's bitter from doing evil action after evil action, and angry that we get to live a much more Star Warsy cool life with our Cult of Shepard. You can choose to try to be in touch with him (which he rejects, so screw him), or kick him 'off your ship'. Regardless, the message is that the 'original' (not clone..but original) Shepard by now has become a total failure, and our personality of Shepard is all that matters now. AKA, he's the only real one now, and now he has a job to finish (the goodbye scene on Citadel where LI or ally usually reminds you outright to destroy the Reapers).

-Anyway, what we're encountering in the end is not the expansion of weird red/blue/green waves (lol), but in fact the construction of a new Reaper, and not just any Reaper (we've proven ourselves too much for that), but the new Master Control Reaper (aka an Ultimate Intelligence to surpass the current Intelligence). Sovereign in fact was the original Intelligence and it housed itself in, and considered itself to be a Reaper (even in the 'Crucible'/Mind-Test he used 'we' in place of 'Reapers'). Upon defeat, he simply transferred himself onto the Citadel and let his new Avatar, Shepard, to do the rest, tasking Harbinger to well.. be the Harbinger of Shepard's perfection .

-BUT, there is a hint of what is also happening. The boy, dreams, all that, is the constructed-in-future Neo Reaper (which is also, one way or another, SHEPARD) reaching back in time to his original mind, leading him to not trust Sovereign/Intelligence/Harbinger enough to be a Mind Slave, like Saren was. Shepard, instead of being blinded by indoctrination, instead is being told "FOCUS ON EARTH. FOCUS ON SAVING US. FOCUS ON FIGHTING US." It's, in a way, GOOD indoctrination, as it keeps Shepard from losing all control over his mind to the Reapers.
What's this crazy 'time thing'? Well, if you do very random-seeming side missions in ME1-ME2, you can talk to Conrad Verner and get his Dark Energy Dissertation. This War Asset has a very interesting detail - it shows that Dark Energy (which Reapers almost freaking embody), can, with enough power, create a difference in time itself. Or at least, I guess, the perception of it. Eternity, Purgatory, Afterlife, Flux, Dark Star, all concepts that are important here.

-Side note: First we see the kid killed by a 'Reaper Destroyer' (heh interesting name), then we 'kill' one on Tuchanka and get our first dream where he is out of reach, then we 'kill' one on Rannoch and get our second dream where he stands and burns, then we do Cronos where we see the Human-Reaper and get our third dream where he is burned being held by Shepard, and finally we 'kill' another one as our last major obstacle before Harbinger and the Beam (called 'Conduit' in the UI....) and we face the child a final time, this time as a 'ghostly presence'.
My point? Indoctrination could be happening, but it's actually eventually a 'good' one which urges us to be in 'fire with the child'. Shepard is shocked and confused by this, but maybe he can piece together the message fast enough to save himself...

-The future game will expose this truth. It won't be 'related' to Shepard's story, because it'll be based on the actual reality of things, instead of Shepard's head imaginings of saving the galaxy... which yeah, Saren thought he was doing as well, right up to when he opened the arms of the Citadel with his Geth and Krogan (and would have been also Rachni and potentially a united indoctrinated galaxy) to the...uh oh. (It's ok, we have a cool Reaper to mess things up for the other ones now! Prepare for victory regardless, just like with Revan in KOTOR!!! )

Now to explain how EDI survives Destroy:

Destroy only purges the virtual universe (think Virtual Aliens + Geth + Indoc) in the Ultimate Intelligence of any sort of Reaper Code itself. As such, it may be 'dumber' without the 'Geth' and 'EDI' and 'Reaper' part, but it also is 100% on your side, as it still contains the will of everyone in Shepard's memories.
You can preserve the 'EDI within' by picking Control or Synthesis. It'll be smarter, and possibly with EDI as prime personality in Synthesis, but Shepard will be dead or 'half dead' in those options.

But the real one is STILL out there. It's in the real Normandy itself. She already expressed her willingness to die fighting the Reapers, so your Destroy choice won't be seen as betrayal, but instead staying loyal to her, as long as you talked through it with her beforehand . I don't know exactly how this will work, but I think EDI will be fine, and though she might sacrifice herself (and potentially along with the Normandy too), her 'spirit' would basically live on in a Control or Synth Intelligence.

In the Real World, EVERYONE IS FINE. They're all going through their own mental trials as well at the moment (look to Homeworlds comic for that), but based on your choices, they'll probably be fine, and ready to pick you up from the rubble. I think only a total FailShep will fail here, just as the FailShep in Suicide Mission dies here as well. (Reminder: In Citadel DLC, EDI refers to the whole party as like the suicide mission as well. Explains how that would be, but nah... Citadel DLC just a party... right?)

Questions, please respond in PMs, or know you'll be putting this all in public for potential mockery like I am...

Modifié par SwobyJ, 03 novembre 2013 - 02:39 .

[AlanC9]

StreetMagic wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Thanks. I'd forgotten that thread. Weird that Weekes seems to find it plausible that EDI survived pre-EC Destroy. Nobody was ever able to produce a vid of that happening.

I guess the reasoning might be with high EMS, the energy is somehow very focused on bonafide Reaper technology. Maybe? While EDI isn't purely Reaper based, so avoids the brunt of the attack. Same goes for whatever synthetic tech Shep may have (if he does at all), hence the breath scene in high EMS.

My point was that he treats EDI's survival in Destroy as conceivable, when it wasn't actually shown--a BSN rumor said that she sometimes survived, but that was b.s. The easy answer would be "no, she dies." Did he maybe not know what was actually in the ending they shipped?

Edit: guess the site doesn't support spoiler tags.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 novembre 2013 - 02:25 .

[Xamufam]

I Think they originally intended that the crucible would change or attack the reapercode & not dna thats why edi survived, & when it comes to indoctrination that plot was dropped in the last minute

Modifié par Troxa, 03 novembre 2013 - 10:57 .

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

Oh Swoby, Swoby, Swoby..



I'd like to believe you, but I'm not sure the writers are capable of it. It'd be cool, but I'm just really doubtful about it. Like I've pointed out elsewhere, this is on the level of Last Temptation of Christ writing. I'm not even sure Kojima could write a mindscrewing scenario as good as that. And as far game writers go, he's the best candidate for it. I've never seen anything from the ME team that seemed to suggest they think like that.

I know it's insane

But somehow, I'm able to do my new Trilogy Run ...and it just slots into place. All of Shepard's attitudes, how certain things convieniently happen, etc. It even makes Control and Synthesis, which I previously saw as repugnant, somewhat beautiful still. I can even see Bioware viewing Synthesis as the 'best' one (sorta), because it shows a true wish for peace between all. The method is still Reaper-like (DUH, YOU'RE MAKING A REAPER STILL), but it's a humanity-infused evolution of the concept that may still be on our side.

It also lets Bioware do a whole other game with not Shepard 2.0 (that was the Lazurus Project btw ), but 3.0 at some point, one reborn from the ashes of Earth, one way or another.

We could play a 'present time' game as a whole other set of characters, seeing the galaxy 'as it actually is', and filling in the holes in Shepard's perception.

Or we could play in the future and well... see what happens.

My inclination is that we're going to get a whole other layer to the Mass universe first, get the REAL war (not the Harvest), and Bioware can use that as a cross-gen 'reintroduction' for new players on the One/PS4.

EDIT: Leviathan is also involved but they won't be fully into things until a future game, where we find out their idea of 'tribute' is devouring whole worlds of people with no restriction except 'organic preservation' in itself, and there's nothing we can do about it.

You'll be wanting the Reapers back at that point. (they still will be though. They'll be defeated and pushed from Earth, but like fallen angels without their God, their new free-er will will make them all much more individual in purpose, and open to enslavement by Leviathans as well)



EDIT: Honestly, this is just an expansion of the Revan idea (sorta) in KOTOR. Casey Hudson did admit to having a larger ambition, but needing a new sci-fi property in order to achieve it. So here it...is? Maybe? I dunno?


EDIT: Yo, your Shepard so awesome, he indoctrinates HIMSELF. Wuuurrrdd.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 03 novembre 2013 - 02:55 .

[Mcfly616]

SwobyJ wrote...


Hell, he 'loses' no matter what.

Synthesis - Personal defeat, even EDI can be more alive than he ever, ever, ever could be now; but not just EDI, but EVERYONE (though Synthesis is up for debate until any sequel ever happens, if ever)
Control - Ideological defeat, ShepReaper seems to be capable of managing the galaxy's advancement far more than he ever, ever, ever could
Defeat - Literal defeat, he is killed, possibly never to return, even if Reaper tech or other AI arrives again

I don't think it looks at it as a matter of winning or losing. Either way, it acknowledges that Shepard renders itself obsolete.

[SwobyJ]

Mcfly616 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...


Hell, he 'loses' no matter what.

Synthesis - Personal defeat, even EDI can be more alive than he ever, ever, ever could be now; but not just EDI, but EVERYONE (though Synthesis is up for debate until any sequel ever happens, if ever)
Control - Ideological defeat, ShepReaper seems to be capable of managing the galaxy's advancement far more than he ever, ever, ever could
Defeat - Literal defeat, he is killed, possibly never to return, even if Reaper tech or other AI arrives again

I don't think it looks at it as a matter of winning or losing. Either way, it acknowledges that Shepard renders itself obsolete.

Yeah 'defeat' is a bit harsh of a word. More 'acknowledges finality', or something like that. It's more jerk Reapers like Harbinger that will have to *dealwithit.jpg*


EDIT: Actually, probably only Harbinger, for all we know.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 03 novembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[Obadiah]

Mcfly616 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...


Hell, he 'loses' no matter what.

Synthesis - Personal defeat, even EDI can be more alive than he ever, ever, ever could be now; but not just EDI, but EVERYONE (though Synthesis is up for debate until any sequel ever happens, if ever)
Control - Ideological defeat, ShepReaper seems to be capable of managing the galaxy's advancement far more than he ever, ever, ever could
Defeat - Literal defeat, he is killed, possibly never to return, even if Reaper tech or other AI arrives again

I don't think it looks at it as a matter of winning or losing. Either way, it acknowledges that Shepard renders itself obsolete.

Maybe the end of ME3 is an organic Singularity.