157 réponses à ce sujet

[Tokenusername]

Deerber wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Also, if we're being technical it's an objective fact that the Earth has a gravitational field as of me typing this post.

It's not your opinion that there is gravity. It's simply there.

That's your opinion (and a lot of others', miyself included) too. And it is not impossible that it will be proved wrong in a future, be it near or distant. So yeah, nothing is 100% sure in this world, except this very statement.

So how far in the future will we prove that the Earth does not have gravity and we've just been fooling ourselves for thousands of years?

[Cyonan]

 

valium wrote...

it makes the most sense, infiltrators were supposed to be the sniper class, it would indeed limit build variety but it would expand class variety. maybe doing something like this would have made bioware give more thought to more varying infiltrators like the shadow.

This whole argument relies on the idea that maybe BioWare would have done something different if all Infiltrators were snipers, when there is no real connection between the two.

BioWare could just as easily have make them more varied without making them all snipers. Hell, the one example you gave of a varied Infiltrator is the exact opposite of a long ranged attacker, and would be one of the most hurt characters by your change.

Tokenusername wrote...
People love to complain about how not being able to being snipers on your Vanguard is going to limit build variety. No one seems to realise that the flexibility of design increases when faced with less variables.

I'll have you know that a Mantis wielding Smashguard is a very entertaining build to use =P

[valium]

Cyonan wrote...

 

valium wrote...

it makes the most sense, infiltrators were supposed to be the sniper class, it would indeed limit build variety but it would expand class variety. maybe doing something like this would have made bioware give more thought to more varying infiltrators like the shadow.

This whole argument relies on the idea that maybe BioWare would have done something different if all Infiltrators were snipers, when there is no real connection between the two.

BioWare could just as easily have make them more varied without making them all snipers. Hell, the one example you gave of a varied Infiltrator is the exact opposite of a long ranged attacker, and would be one of the most hurt characters by your change.

Tokenusername wrote...
People love to complain about how not being able to being snipers on your Vanguard is going to limit build variety. No one seems to realise that the flexibility of design increases when faced with less variables.

I'll have you know that a Mantis wielding Smashguard is a very entertaining build to use =P

missing the point.

fine, on the example of shadow, rename "tactical cloak" to.... "combat cloak"  or whatever... and make it boost only power damage.

if at the beginning all infiltrators were just snipers, then bioware might have added more varying infiltrators in subsequent DLC. as it stands infiltratos are the least varying of the classes now that everything is said and done.

[MajorStupidity]

The problem is that the stealth mechanics just do not work very well in ME3 MP so you cannot have a power completely centered around cloak without it being really underwhelming so they give it a damage bonus. They really need to change it so that the cloak cooldown doesn't override whatever power you throw out first. Also heavier weapons should affect the cooldown of cloak even if you cancel it early. I like the system in Borderlands 2 where the longer you wait in cloak the larger the damage bonus, and I believe that system could have worked really well here.

[Tokenusername]

MajorStupidity wrote...

I like the system in Borderlands 2 where the longer you wait in cloak the larger the damage bonus, and I believe that system could have worked really well here.

I played a Zer0 sniper build. That mechanic was dumb.

[MajorStupidity]

Tokenusername wrote...

MajorStupidity wrote...

I like the system in Borderlands 2 where the longer you wait in cloak the larger the damage bonus, and I believe that system could have worked really well here.

I played a Zer0 sniper build. That mechanic was dumb.

I believe that is because of the mechanics of BL2 itself. The basic premise is what I am after of course it would have to be tweaked for it to work in future ME games.

[Cyonan]

valium wrote...
missing the point.

fine, on the example of shadow, rename "tactical cloak" to.... "combat cloak" or whatever... and make it boost only power damage.

if at the beginning all infiltrators were just snipers, then bioware might have added more varying infiltrators in subsequent DLC. as it stands infiltratos are the least varying of the classes now that everything is said and done.

How exactly is the point being missed?

You're saying that if all Infiltrators were snipers BioWare MIGHT have designed them differently. You don't even know for sure that they would have done it, you're just guessing.

There's also no evidence of a link between all Infiltrators being Snipers and them being more varied. They could have done one without getting the other.

[Tokenusername]

MajorStupidity wrote...

Tokenusername wrote...

MajorStupidity wrote...

I like the system in Borderlands 2 where the longer you wait in cloak the larger the damage bonus, and I believe that system could have worked really well here.

I played a Zer0 sniper build. That mechanic was dumb.

I believe that is because of the mechanics of BL2 itself. The basic premise is what I am after of course it would have to be tweaked for it to work in future ME games.

No, it was dumb as a concept. It wasn't balancing, it did an arbitrary obstetrical between you and the damage bonus. Melee Zer0 didn't have much of an issue with it, as most of the cloak time was used in physically closing the distance to an enemy. Sniper Zer0 however, was always forced to simply stand around doing nothing while waiting for the duration to finish. It was meant to be a trade-off between recharge and damage, but I don't know anyone that preferred a faster recharge to more damage.

[robarcool]

Deerber wrote...

People are seriously strange... Oh well.

I'll only point out one thing.

Cyonan wrote...

Also, if we're being technical it's an objective fact that the Earth has a gravitational field as of me typing this post.

It's not your opinion that there is gravity. It's simply there.

That's your opinion (and a lot of others', miyself included) too. And it is not impossible that it will be proved wrong in a future, be it near or distant. So yeah, nothing is 100% sure in this world, except this very statement.

Nope. You make it as if it will be, what you should mean is it may be if you are talking about probabilities.

[robarcool]

Annomander wrote...

Cloak deserves a few changes...

Firstly, only the first attack should infer a damage bonus; if you melee, shoot or use a power, then ONLY that damage type gains the bonus, not all sources of damage.

Secondly, the cooldown needs to matter. It's just not balanced having a power that allows other powers to be spammed freely *with a damage boost* on such a short cooldown. Make the cooldown relevant again and it moves closer to being balanced.

Thirdly, duration evos should matter. If duration, gave, say, extra duration AND extended the duration of the damage bonus (but not the actual damage bonus itself) it would be a much more attractive prospect. The power could even be reworked so that you can choose damage for sniping; a massive damage boost for one shot only, or a more moderate damage boost for several seconds... But I stress, that Snipers should NOT be balanced around needing cloak in order to OHK enemies. Headshotting with a javelin should kill the enemy regardless of whether or not you are invisible when you fire...

Finally, I'd like to see some sort of trade off... most powers which are far weaker than TC have a trade off and TC has none. Make TC consume a portion of shield energy and delay shield regen each time it is used. There are many kits which can deal damage with weapons and powers which do not need to be spamming TC, so arguing that infiltrators need TC all the time is ridiculous. TC should be used intelligently instead of spammed all the time. Just like you don't run around spamming incinerate on shielded targets, neither should you be spamming TC when it is not prudent to do so.



Quite why people are still arguing that TC is balanced is beyond me. Especially when these individuals are short on empirical evidence to suggest that the power is balanced.

Take a QMI versus a QME, for instance. The QMI is the better boss killer, as he doesn't lose a cooldown by casting tac scan and gets a hefty damage bonus into the bargain, that the QME does not get.

The QMI is also the better mook killer, as a single arc grenade (specced for damage, the non-upgraded radius is stupidly big) will do 80% more damage, in addition to any weapon you are firing also doing 80% more damage; which more than compensates for the relatively small amount of damage that a tech burst or FE will do; both of which take longer to pull off. The QMI can even tac scan one of the mooks if he wants; a luxury that the QME cannot afford.

Whatever way you slice it, the QMI is an OBJECTIVELY better character than the QME is, as his theoretical and actual damage is much higher whilst requiring none of the timing (or luck in the case of projectile powers) that the QME does to land his TE... which does less damage anyway.

There's a reason why people call them "winfiltrators". Whatever a SE can do, the SI does better. Etc.

Agree with all of this, except for one small part. TC does have a slight disadvantage: No shield regen although it doesn't matter a lot.

[MajorStupidity]

Tokenusername wrote...

MajorStupidity wrote...

Tokenusername wrote...

MajorStupidity wrote...

I like the system in Borderlands 2 where the longer you wait in cloak the larger the damage bonus, and I believe that system could have worked really well here.

I played a Zer0 sniper build. That mechanic was dumb.

I believe that is because of the mechanics of BL2 itself. The basic premise is what I am after of course it would have to be tweaked for it to work in future ME games.

No, it was dumb as a concept. It wasn't balancing, it did an arbitrary obstetrical between you and the damage bonus. Melee Zer0 didn't have much of an issue with it, as most of the cloak time was used in physically closing the distance to an enemy. Sniper Zer0 however, was always forced to simply stand around doing nothing while waiting for the duration to finish. It was meant to be a trade-off between recharge and damage, but I don't know anyone that preferred a faster recharge to more damage.

I still think the basic premise could work if tweaked, but I definitely get where you are coming from... sniper zero was pretty damn weak

Modifié par MajorStupidity, 07 novembre 2013 - 03:31 .

[IanLai]

MajorStupidity wrote...

Tokenusername wrote...

MajorStupidity wrote...

Tokenusername wrote...

MajorStupidity wrote...

I like the system in Borderlands 2 where the longer you wait in cloak the larger the damage bonus, and I believe that system could have worked really well here.

I played a Zer0 sniper build. That mechanic was dumb.

I believe that is because of the mechanics of BL2 itself. The basic premise is what I am after of course it would have to be tweaked for it to work in future ME games.

No, it was dumb as a concept. It wasn't balancing, it did an arbitrary obstetrical between you and the damage bonus. Melee Zer0 didn't have much of an issue with it, as most of the cloak time was used in physically closing the distance to an enemy. Sniper Zer0 however, was always forced to simply stand around doing nothing while waiting for the duration to finish. It was meant to be a trade-off between recharge and damage, but I don't know anyone that preferred a faster recharge to more damage.

I still think the basic premise could work if tweaked, but I definitely get where you are coming from... sniper zero was pretty damn weak

i do not play boarderland but i would like to say it may be good
i can imagine
for example if you need a full damage cloak to charge up, you need 10 secs. in return you can get 400% damage bonus. during 10 secs you can't attack otherwise the charge release and you can get certain amout of damage
the damage charge is not linar,say you spend 5 secs , but it does not mean you get 200% may be 120%. this make the longer charge more valuable. and make a multiple short chage cloak can not override the damage for 1 full  charge.

in team game , basically if you kill mobs with a powerful sniper gun, you may even don't need cloak damage
so this mechanism is not useful for mobs

if there are 3 players shooting the boss (say banshee ). while you wait for 10 secs, the team kill her
again it is not useful.

but there are some situations you want to cloak , run away from group of enemies. after waiting a while you get full damage charge cloak. you shoot the boss from nowhere( say the map like giant) . you OHK with 400% damage from head shot. actually it can be quite fun. 

moreover in the case i mentioned, when 3 players shooting the boss. it can still be useful becuase you can shoot the boss whenever you like , say 5 secs , you get 120% damage boost. that is enough for killing the boss with team.(but this easily lead to anthoer problem : kill stealing)

Modifié par IanLai, 07 novembre 2013 - 04:03 .

[Tokenusername]

IanLai wrote...

...but this easily lead to anthoer problem : kill stealing

Hehehe. "Kill stealing"

[IanLai]

robarcool wrote...

Deerber wrote...

People are seriously strange... Oh well.

I'll only point out one thing.

Cyonan wrote...

Also, if we're being technical it's an objective fact that the Earth has a gravitational field as of me typing this post.

It's not your opinion that there is gravity. It's simply there.

That's your opinion (and a lot of others', miyself included) too. And it is not impossible that it will be proved wrong in a future, be it near or distant. So yeah, nothing is 100% sure in this world, except this very statement.

Nope. You make it as if it will be, what you should mean is it may be if you are talking about probabilities.

he mess up about eternal truth  and objective fact
objective fact does not necessary mean it is true forever.
it only means the fact that is independent of viewers
we consider science as a tool becuase it is an objective fact (independent of viewers). it have been measured, questioned, experimented.  but may be one day it can be wrong when there is another proof. until it happend we still consider it to be objective.

today i see a red apple, you see the same, he see the same . this is an objective fact
may be someone get some illness on his eye he does not see a red one. but  this is subjective
may be 10 days later, the apple was rotten. and it is not red or even an apple shaped
but this does not mean it is not an objective fact 10 days ago

at least this is what i learned

Modifié par IanLai, 07 novembre 2013 - 04:25 .

[bondiboy]

Tokenusername wrote...

IanLai wrote...

...but this easily lead to anthoer problem : kill stealing

Hehehe. "Kill stealing"

This is an important issue that everyone seems to have overlooked during the discussion

[IanLai]

Tokenusername wrote...

IanLai wrote...

...but this easily lead to anthoer problem : kill stealing

Hehehe. "Kill stealing"

[Shadohz]

Annomander wrote...

Cloak deserves a few changes...

Firstly, only the first attack should infer a damage bonus; if you melee, shoot or use a power, then ONLY that damage type gains the bonus, not all sources of damage.

Secondly, the cooldown needs to matter. It's just not balanced having a power that allows other powers to be spammed freely *with a damage boost* on such a short cooldown. Make the cooldown relevant again and it moves closer to being balanced.

Thirdly, duration evos should matter. If duration, gave, say, extra duration AND extended the duration of the damage bonus (but not the actual damage bonus itself) it would be a much more attractive prospect. The power could even be reworked so that you can choose damage for sniping; a massive damage boost for one shot only, or a more moderate damage boost for several seconds... But I stress, that Snipers should NOT be balanced around needing cloak in order to OHK enemies. Headshotting with a javelin should kill the enemy regardless of whether or not you are invisible when you fire...

Finally, I'd like to see some sort of trade off... most powers which are far weaker than TC have a trade off and TC has none. Make TC consume a portion of shield energy and delay shield regen each time it is used. There are many kits which can deal damage with weapons and powers which do not need to be spamming TC, so arguing that infiltrators need TC all the time is ridiculous. TC should be used intelligently instead of spammed all the time. Just like you don't run around spamming incinerate on shielded targets, neither should you be spamming TC when it is not prudent to do so.



Quite why people are still arguing that TC is balanced is beyond me. Especially when these individuals are short on empirical evidence to suggest that the power is balanced.

Take a QMI versus a QME, for instance. The QMI is the better boss killer, as he doesn't lose a cooldown by casting tac scan and gets a hefty damage bonus into the bargain, that the QME does not get.

The QMI is also the better mook killer, as a single arc grenade (specced for damage, the non-upgraded radius is stupidly big) will do 80% more damage, in addition to any weapon you are firing also doing 80% more damage; which more than compensates for the relatively small amount of damage that a tech burst or FE will do; both of which take longer to pull off. The QMI can even tac scan one of the mooks if he wants; a luxury that the QME cannot afford.

Whatever way you slice it, the QMI is an OBJECTIVELY better character than the QME is, as his theoretical and actual damage is much higher whilst requiring none of the timing (or luck in the case of projectile powers) that the QME does to land his TE... which does less damage anyway.

There's a reason why people call them "winfiltrators". Whatever a SE can do, the SI does better. Etc.

Great idea but add a few more tweaks:
1. Remove the penalty to regenerate shields while in TC.
2. Add a penalty to not be able to use TC if shields are down (i.e. no shields/no TC).
3. Evo 4 - reduce damage to 25%
4. Evo 5 - remove melee damage and add 15% DR that applies to breaking cloak over X secs.
5. Evo 6  - remove both options and replace with 6a/%10 power damage and 6b/10% weapons damage.
6. Remove 'early break' cooldown boon (i.e. TC has the same CD whether you fired a power/shot, expired, or you broke cloak manually).
7. Remove breaking cloak while reloading weapons
8. All power casts break cloak (throwing grenades, repair matrix, stim packs, prox mine, etc).
9. Remove the silly penalty that if you're in TC then you're not doing obj (the whole point of TC is stealth!!!!). It should count if you are in hax circle or doing probe. TC should also be allowed for pizza delivery.

In the end, you should have a TC that works a little better for Shadow and Huntress, while allowing the other Infs to use their choice of weapons for break bonus (trade-off being no in-cloak bonus). TC would be more univeral for all Infs and promote the use of duration.

EDIT: I'll have to think over #2 a bit. I don't believe there's any existing power that is prevented if shields are down. I may have to work that out another way, but as it stands it would work pretty much the same way as TC for Hunter Geth.

Modifié par Shadohz, 22 décembre 2013 - 06:46 .

[Kislitsin]

Is it necro already?

If TC would be nerfed in terms of powers CD or damage, it will lead to lack of diversity among classes.

Great damage boost + CD override + LOS braker should carry severe penalty.
My Idea:
Leave all the bonuses and damage and CD override, maybe even unnerf cloak, but:

1. When the cloack is on shields are broken and do not regen, so basicly you are shieldgated (makes sense lore-wise, AFAIK cloak is generated by shield-generator). Shieldgate cooldown resets only when the cloak is off. So during cooldown one is still very vulnerable.

2. No infiltrator should have more than 500 base shields and 4-5-6b evos in fitness of any winfiltrator should provide speed boost options instead of shields. CM's effectiveness reduced by double.

3. Give the frogfiltrator decoy instead of ED, give the TGI inferno nades instead of stim-packs, undo the sexbot.

This way, infiltrators will be an ultimate glass cannons, and no way that some kiddo would be able to slap CM-IV on full-fitness GI with hurr-durr and do not face ground.

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

Kislitsin wrote...

give the TGI inferno nades instead of stim-packs

Tac Cloak +  strongest Incendiary glitch = lol
A cloaked IG would do 573.75 (1154.25 vs Armor if 6a) damage per second, if my math is correct.

Would do stupid amounts of damage, even without Incendiary ammo. I'd suggest Frags or Stickies instead.

Modifié par FatherOfPearl, 22 décembre 2013 - 07:05 .

[Shadohz]

Kislitsin wrote...

Is it necro already?

lol yeah sorry about that. I was looking at TC for the Huntress and thinking to myself how could TC had been better without boosting the other Infs. I saw this thread and seen two good ideas in it.

[Kislitsin]

FatherOfPearl wrote...

Kislitsin wrote...

give the TGI inferno nades instead of stim-packs

Tac Cloak +  strongest Incendiary glitch = lol
A cloaked IG would do 573.75 (1154.25 vs Armor if 6a) damage per second, if my math is correct.

Would do stupid amounts of damage, even without Incendiary ammo. I'd suggest Frags or Stickies instead.

But no shieldgate... no shields... glasscannons 

Ok, what about multifrags then? Cuz frags should go to the awakened maradeur (MM/Blood Armor/Frag Grenade).

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

Kislitsin wrote...

FatherOfPearl wrote...

Kislitsin wrote...

give the TGI inferno nades instead of stim-packs

Tac Cloak +  strongest Incendiary glitch = lol
A cloaked IG would do 573.75 (1154.25 vs Armor if 6a) damage per second, if my math is correct.

Would do stupid amounts of damage, even without Incendiary ammo. I'd suggest Frags or Stickies instead.

But no shieldgate... no shields... glasscannons 

Ok, what about multifrags then? Cuz frags should go to the awakened maradeur (MM/Blood Armor/Frag Grenade).

Multifrags - 4a, 5b, 6a = 1417.5 (per grenade) x 5 = 7087.5
 - 665 damage (x 5 =  1995)
 - 787.5 damage (x 5 = 3937.5) after 35% passive bonus (Destroyer)
 - 1417.5 (x 5 = 7087.5) after 80%  cloak bonus

                   4a, 5b, 6b = 1732.5 (per grenade) x 3 = 5197.5
 - 840 damage (x 3 = 2520)
 - 962.5 (x 3 = 2887.5) after 35% passive bonus (Destroyer)
 - 1732.5 (x 3 = 5197.5) after 80% cloak bonus

Better, but still OP in my opinion.

Modifié par FatherOfPearl, 22 décembre 2013 - 07:41 .

[Kislitsin]

FatherOfPearl wrote...
Multifrags - 4a, 5b, 6a = 1417.5 (per grenade) x 5 = 7087.5
 - 665 damage (x 5 =  1995)
 - 787.5 damage (x 5 = 3937.5) after passives
 - 1417.5 (x 5 = 7087.5) after 80%  cloak bonus

                   4a, 5b, 6b = 1732.5 (per grenade) x 3 = 5197.5
 - 840 damage (x 3 = 2520)
 - 962.5 (x 3 = 2887.5) after passives
 - 1732.5 (x 3 = 5197.5) after 80% cloak bonus

Better, but still OP in my opinion.

Well, what if grenade use also uncloak? Can he haz MFGs? 

And I remind you, 500 shields (750 w cyclonics IV), shieldgated while cloaked (which makes a live of AR-infiltrator much less easy).

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

Kislitsin wrote...

FatherOfPearl wrote...
Multifrags - 4a, 5b, 6a = 1417.5 (per grenade) x 5 = 7087.5
 - 665 damage (x 5 =  1995)
 - 787.5 damage (x 5 = 3937.5) after passives
 - 1417.5 (x 5 = 7087.5) after 80%  cloak bonus

                   4a, 5b, 6b = 1732.5 (per grenade) x 3 = 5197.5
 - 840 damage (x 3 = 2520)
 - 962.5 (x 3 = 2887.5) after passives
 - 1732.5 (x 3 = 5197.5) after 80% cloak bonus

Better, but still OP in my opinion.

Well, what if grenade use also uncloak? Can he haz MFGs? 

And I remind you, 500 shields (750 w cyclonics IV), shieldgated while cloaked (which makes a live of AR-infiltrator much less easy).

If grenade use breaks cloak, then that would be a decent way to reduce it's OP-ness. It would still wind up being nerfed, but it would be better than being able to spam all of them for stupid amounts of damage.

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

Nerf TC!!!