160 réponses à ce sujet

[Bigtoke421]

I'm on my third play through thus far.  Every time I watch the battle of Ostagar I can't help but to think that the addition of Loghains troops could have turned the tide. 

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why this could or could not have been possible?

[odddaughter90]

I see no reason as to why it could or couldn't be possible, beyond the simple fact that, if maybe loghain's troops went into battle, and the tide started to turn in Ferelden's favor, the archdemon coulda popped out and just started torching everything in sight, and everyone woulda died.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Some scenes make it look fairly even, but other make the Fereldens look so outnumbered that things look impossible.

[Monica21]

Depends on how many men Loghain had and how they were positioned, which we don't know. Loghain may have been right about being outnumbered, but he might also have been lying. His troops might turned the tide, and if the Archdemon appeared there would have been enough Grey Wardens to deal with it. But then that would have made for a really lame game.

[BroBear Berbil]

Considering Loghain had roughly half of the army with him and would have had the advantage of attacking the flank and the momentum of charging from higher ground I would think yes.

[TagImIt]

I don't think Ostagar could have been won, as it seems that there is just a never ending amount of Darkspawn coming from beneath the ground. Perhaps if Lohgain hadn't retreated, it wouldn't have been such a massacre. Perhaps the entire army would have retreated, saving the lives of Cailan, Duncan, and any number of other soldiers and Wardens.

[Mr. Sprinkles101]

Ferelden could have taken victory with the king still living. But I think loghain had doubts so retreated

[What a Twist]

The darkspawn numbered in the thousands, if not the tens of thousands. While loghain had nearly half the army, and his troops were clearly the better equipped half, i'm not sure if it would have been enough. I don't like loghain, but could he have really talked cailan out of it? He seemed hell bent on gaining the glory his father had. I think loghain made the right choice at ostagar, but that doesn't excuse his later actions.

Modifié par What a Twist, 20 janvier 2010 - 05:48 .

[Costin_Razvan]

No. It could not have been won, as proven in RTO.

[What a Twist]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

No. It could not have been won, as proven in RTO.

You know, now that I think about it... Maybe loghain wanted to charge, but he got delayed.

[MOTpoetryION]

I tried . i went down below to see if i could save the king and duncan but could'nt find them. : (

edit: and the darkspawn were coming from the woods not the ground

Modifié par MOTpoetryION, 20 janvier 2010 - 06:09 .

[Vicious]

Well in RtO, one of the King's bodyguards, a friend and close confidant of the king, says "Even for all of Cailan's bravado, the king knew there would be no victory at Ostagar. He entrusted me with blahblah etc etc."



Loghain: "It was a fool's battle, lost before it was begun. You are not to blame."



But who knows. Loghain stands by his decision in that the battle was completely unwinnable. Wynne also says as much. Alistair does nothing but indicate that the battle could have, should have been won.



So like everything else, believe what you want to believe. If RtO came out on time people would be singing different tunes. Alas it did not.

[BroBear Berbil]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

No. It could not have been won, as proven in RTO.

Haven't had the pleasure.

Suppose it's worth posting a Gaider quote related to the topic

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement.
Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy.
I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his
strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind,
Loghain still wasn't certain that
he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley
could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his
belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted
perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly
the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had
anticipated.

Anyway, I better leave thread before RTO spoilers.

[Gold Dragon]

The battle that happens the evening YOU get there may have been winnable. Good tactics would likely have saved the night.



However, Ostagar was a truly lost cause. I doubt that King Cailin would have agreed to withdrawing after what 3-5 victories? No, the Darkspawn would have won. Loghain's Betrayal actually DID save Ferelden. And yet nearly destroys it in the process (as the # of Wardens are reduced, and his Paranoria of Orlais doesn't help). Why didn't Duncan say that Wardens from the Free Marches to the north had been summoned? True Orlais was closer, but....

[Legbiter]

Maybe hitting the horde in the flank would have done nothing, given the size of it. Can darkspawn even be induced to rout like a human army that's suddenly been surprised with a flank/rear attack?



If not and given the apparent massive numerical superiority of the darkspawn then maybe Loghain's men would just have carved out a wedge into the horde with little effect on the enemy's morale. That wedge would then be slowly whittled down to nothing.



Guess we'll never know.

[Envor44]

No, even though Loghain didn't betrayed the king and charge in time, They force still outnumbered.



Well unless everyone( dwarves,elves,other) been there it possible to won

[cachx]

I thought it was Loghain's plan to let Cailan die there all along.

Well, even with the Dwarves+elf+human+mage armies combined it was said that the darkspawn outnumbered them at least 3 to 1. So, kinda hard for the humans to win alone. (assuming that most of the darkspawn horde were at Ostagar).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

No. It could not have been won, as proven in RTO.

I don't consider claims for a single soldier proof, especially since we have opposite claims too.

[Costin_Razvan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

No. It could not have been won, as proven in RTO.

I don't consider claims for a single soldier proof, especially since we have opposite claims too.

I consider the word of a Honor Guard,  who was a friend with the king and had every reason to hate Loghain. The words of David Gaider, and Wynne's own words. Even those of Loghain.

Either way, there is proof Ostagar could not have won. There is ABSOLUETLY NO proof it could have been won.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 janvier 2010 - 08:03 .

[Vicious]

I don't consider claims for a single soldier proof, especially since we have opposite claims too.

You obviously don't consider David Gaider's own words either, so your opinion in this matter is less than meaningless. Is that what you do? Cheer for DavidG when he says something you like and pretend his words don't exist when he says something contrary? Sounds about right.

Also, see, this was not a 'single soldier' as you so derisively put it. This was an honor guard, a FRIEND and CLOSE CONFIDANT of the King. So unless you got to be on the field with King Cailan, or spoke to someone else who was in the game, then you have no ground to stand on and, at best, are relying on the words of characters who were about as close to the battle as you were.

Wynne also says it was unwinnable, just to let you know. She simply finds Loghain's actions reprehensible.

Anyway,

I consider the word of a Honor Guard, who was a friend with the king and had every reason to hate Loghain.

He does, one of the top dialogue options, I forget which, and if you have Loghain in your party, he'll spit the word Traitor at Loghain, and Loghain will fly off the handle at him with, "At least I took my men with me when I ran, maybe you should have grown a spine and done the same."

Modifié par Vicious, 20 janvier 2010 - 08:11 .

[jsachun]

Actually, Loghain had all of Ferelden's army, & the frontline army seen battling the Darkspawn was just the Grey Wardens. Ostagar would have been saved or at least the battle we see, provided that Loghain charged when he was suppose to. Yes, the number of Darkspawn was growing but so was the King's army. Earl Eamon's army was due to arrive so were the Grey Wardens from Orlai. The whole Orlesian army may have come too, provided that the darkspawn horde was proven to be a true blight.

Modifié par jsachun, 20 janvier 2010 - 08:11 .

[Vicious]

Actually, Loghain had all of Ferelden's army, & the frontline army seen battling the Darkspawn was just the Grey Wardens.

Many, many times in the game it is said otherwise, though all the GW's were indeed down there. Yes, it looks like a ridiculously small force, but whatever. IMO to be completely fair there are many times when DAO can't get it's own stories straight. example, there were just GW's down there, there was Cailan's half the army down there, Loghain had the whole army but they all mysteriously disappeared post-battle since he used only his own forces and what the Queen had left to win the various civil wars, etc.



It's a mess.

[jsachun]

Vicious wrote...

Actually, Loghain had all of Ferelden's army, & the frontline army seen battling the Darkspawn was just the Grey Wardens.

Many, many times in the game it is said otherwise, though all the GW's were indeed down there. Yes, it looks like a ridiculously small force, but whatever. IMO to be completely fair there are many times when DAO can't get it's own stories straight. example, there were just GW's down there, there was Cailan's half the army down there, Loghain had the whole army but they all mysteriously disappeared post-battle since he used only his own forces and what the Queen had left to win the various civil wars, etc.

It's a mess.

I think events in DA:O being quest based & not real time based, adds to the confusion. You have no sense of time travelling. But some journeys in the map would've taken weeks if not months in real time. I think it does mention in the storyline somewhere towards the end of the game, that the whole event roughly has taken about a year in real time since Ostagar (A conversation with Wynne I think). So if you add that to the equation & the fact that Loghain is spreading false propaganda about the events at Ostagar, it does make sense.
 

[Korva]

Frankly if it becomes "official" that Ostagar wasn't winnable then I'm going to feel really ticked off and my already-faded interest in this game/franchise is going to fade even more because it stinks of nonsensical retconning (since there's nothing in the actual game to point to the battle being a lost cause) with the goal of whitewashing Loghain.

He made the battle plan. He was the one who had screeching hissy fits about not waiting for the reinforcements from Orlais. Why on Earth is Cailan who may be starry-eyed and glory-seeking but at least had the sense and brains to ask for help and trust the "experts" crapped on from all sides -- yet Loghain has a hundred and one excuses made for his actions and is considered a "savior"? He saved no one but himself. He torpedoed the battle far more than Cailan's recklessness ever could.

[Costin_Razvan]

Cailan was the one that insisted they fight or wait for the orlesians. There was no middle ground of gathering more forces from across Fereldan, and that was because of Cailan not Loghain. It was also Cailan foolish notion to rely on a few dozen grey wardens to win the battle, not strategy, not his own army but a few dozen men.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 janvier 2010 - 11:35 .