160 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Korva wrote...

Frankly if it becomes "official" that Ostagar wasn't winnable then I'm going to feel really ticked off and my already-faded interest in this game/franchise is going to fade even more because it stinks of nonsensical retconning (since there's nothing in the actual game to point to the battle being a lost cause) with the goal of whitewashing Loghain.

He made the battle plan. He was the one who had screeching hissy fits about not waiting for the reinforcements from Orlais. Why on Earth is Cailan who may be starry-eyed and glory-seeking but at least had the sense and brains to ask for help and trust the "experts" crapped on from all sides -- yet Loghain has a hundred and one excuses made for his actions and is considered a "savior"? He saved no one but himself. He torpedoed the battle far more than Cailan's recklessness ever could.

I think the closest thing to an official version of the battle is that the Darkspawn horde at the last Battle of Ostagar was larger than anyone had expected. I interpret David Gaiders answers that it was certainly so big that victory would not have been assured if he had charged, but neither was it hopeless. A battle is not mathematics. Many battles will hinge on events in the battle that are not easily quantified before. Loghain believed the battle was hopeless, but his perception was not all objective when he made that assumption. That is the best answer we'll get I think.

[Chas1024]

Even if Loghain charging when he saw the beacon could have won the battle it could not have saved the king. The fact that the fighting had reached the king and Duncan shows the Warden's line had been breached. Loghain would have had to cut his way through the entire dark spawn horde to reach the king in the the, at most, few minutes between the beacon being lit and the king's death.

[draxynnus]

Chas makes a good point - there's not much time shown between the beacon being lit and the king biting it. Loghain might or might not have been able to win the battle if he'd gone in, but he couldn't have saved the king.



On the other hand, he also couldn't have known his liege was minutes away from a fatal encounter with an Ogre when he called the retreat.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

No. It could not have been won, as proven in RTO.

I don't consider claims for a single soldier proof, especially since we have opposite claims too.

I consider the word of a Honor Guard,  who was a friend with the king and had every reason to hate Loghain. The words of David Gaider, and Wynne's own words. Even those of Loghain.

Either way, there is proof Ostagar could not have won. There is ABSOLUETLY NO proof it could have been won.

I don't recall David specificly stating that Ostagar was unwinnable. He did say that there were more darkspawn than predicted and that Loghain would probably charge if he trough he could win.

And Wynne's words can be interpreted differently. So no.

There are several people in the game who think the battle could have been won. So there.

Also, see, this was not a 'single soldier' as you so derisively put it.
This was an honor guard, a FRIEND and CLOSE CONFIDANT of the King. So
unless you got to be on the field with King Cailan, or spoke to someone
else who was in the game, then you have no ground to stand on and, at
best, are relying on the words of characters who were about as close to
the battle as you were.

Evenr heard of a colored view?
If youre sorrounded by the enemy from all sides and see your friends falling left and right, the situation may seem more hopeless than it is. ot the first or last time someone considers a situation unwinnable when it isn't (or vice-versa)

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:31 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Korva wrote...

Frankly if it becomes "official" that Ostagar wasn't winnable then I'm going to feel really ticked off and my already-faded interest in this game/franchise is going to fade even more because it stinks of nonsensical retconning (since there's nothing in the actual game to point to the battle being a lost cause) with the goal of whitewashing Loghain.

I actually agree with this.

Seems that after David wrote the books, he grown rather fond of Loghain and is now making him less evil.
Or at elast that's the vibe I'm getting.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:31 .

[RobinMichelleB]

I think that, regardless of whether or not Bioware has a specific answer to this question, that anytime you are talking about if a battle could have been won is all speculation. If you ask Loghain, he will say that there was no way the battle could have been won. Some people, like Alistair, think otherwise.

For me, the important part is that Loghain made the decision on his own. He made a strategy that the army was relying on and he chose to abandon them. He let his king die because he thought he knew what was best, and that is why what he did is absolutely unforgiveable. Whether or not Ostagar was winnable really becomes lost in light of that. It's impossible to say what would have happened - in terms of the game, we can only work with what did.

Modifié par RobinMichelleB, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:43 .

[Asylumer]

Korva wrote...

Frankly if it becomes "official" that Ostagar wasn't winnable then I'm going to feel really ticked off and my already-faded interest in this game/franchise is going to fade even more because it stinks of nonsensical retconning (since there's nothing in the actual game to point to the battle being a lost cause) with the goal of whitewashing Loghain.

Pretty impressive how they retconned Loghain before the game released then. Or maybe they retconned reality and placed those localization comments in the Landsmeet? Hmm... I wonder why the writers bother with game development when they can manipulate time and space.

Modifié par Asylumer, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:55 .

[RurouniSaiya-jin]

I believe Ostagar could have indeed been won. Numbers aren't everything, especially when you're getting flanked by a skilled force, more than capable of maximizing the effect of the initial surprise factor. They would have had to outnumber them by an absurd amount for the plan to completely fail but if that was true, there was no way the initial bait force would have lasted long enough for you to reach the top of the tower to begin with.



But if this is a question of whether Loghain was right or wrong for leaving the King and Duncan to die, he was wrong. Without question. The truth is Loghain had many alternatives to his course of action, all lead to Ferelden being saved along with Duncan and the King and had a much better chance for success in doing the former to boot.

[Knal1991]

in my opinion, king Cailan would have died anyway, the moment it was lit duncan looked up and 2 seconds later Cailan gets killed....the battle could have been won though, since Loghains army could have clustered the darkspawn.



Loghain >>>> Darkspawn <<<<< Cailan



Darkspawn is dead...

[Curlain]

It some ways it irrelevant since no matter what Loghain was already intending to betray Cailan and take power, he had by this time already poisoned Eamon, and had already sanctioned Howe's attack on the Couslands (and likely a number of other necessary actions need to quickly assume power). He was never intending on attempting to win that battle from the start, whether it was winnable or not, he had already by Ostragar gone to far with his treason to turn back or change his mind (he makes one attempt to persuade Cailan not to enter the front lines, in which I assume he would have then placed him under a kind of house arrest) but otherwise, Loghain's course was set before the Warden ever arrived in Ostragar

[Xandurpein]

Curlain wrote...

It some ways it irrelevant since no matter what Loghain was already intending to betray Cailan and take power, he had by this time already poisoned Eamon, and had already sanctioned Howe's attack on the Couslands (and likely a number of other necessary actions need to quickly assume power). He was never intending on attempting to win that battle from the start, whether it was winnable or not, he had already by Ostragar gone to far with his treason to turn back or change his mind (he makes one attempt to persuade Cailan not to enter the front lines, in which I assume he would have then placed him under a kind of house arrest) but otherwise, Loghain's course was set before the Warden ever arrived in Ostragar

It's always amusing when people state things with absolute certainty, that have been disproved by the developers elsewhere. Loghain did plan to deal with Cailan one way or another as he belived Cailan was betraying Fereldan with his dreams of an alliance with Orlais. Loghain was hoping to stage some sort of coup, but he did not plan in advance to leave the Grey Wardens to be slaughtered by the Darkspawn. He did not plan to abandon Cailan on the battlefield ahead of the battle. Read the posts where David Gaider explains it.

It's still perfectly possible to consider Loghain's action treasonable after knowing all the facts, and I would tend to agree, even if I can understand his motives. But you really just set yourself up to look bad if you claim things with absolute certainty when you don't know.

[DreGregoire]

Well, it took me forever to light the beacon because of the darkspawn in the tower so ideally if I had gotten there sooner to light the beacon the battle wouldn't have progressed as far and if Loghain had charged as planned then the Ostagar battle would have been much more sucessful. IFIFIF *smirks* It doesn't change the fact that even after the beacon was lit Loghain betrayed the Kings trust by not doing his part. If he made the decision before hand or at the spur of the moment isn't as important as betraying his king. I don't know do you consider betraying your king traitorous? Would it make you a traitor to you country? What about him placing the blame on the Wardens?



It is interesting that as you play different origins you get more pieces of the puzzle that paint Loghain as making a bid for power. I figure he hoped that Alistair would perish in ostagar as well, he wasn't counting on the King sending our hero and Alistair to light the beacon. Now maybe this bid for power was because the King was planning on bring the same people Loghain and Maric had fault so long to kick out of their country and maybe this fear of losing all he held dear lead him to seek aid from less than honorable people. I can only speculate hehe as I'm not in his head.

[Xandurpein]

I'm not denying that Loghain did a lot of awful things. The point is that thanks to the fact that the developers of the game have been extremely generous with providing us with additional information and explanations on several threads here. Especially David Gaider has posted numerous explanations of what happened and why Loghain acted the way he did. I can try and repost osme of the important ones here, but I don't know how much good it'll do, as threads on this and related subjects seem to multiply all the time.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Korva wrote...

Frankly if it becomes "official" that Ostagar wasn't winnable then I'm going to feel really ticked off and my already-faded interest in this game/franchise is going to fade even more because it stinks of nonsensical retconning (since there's nothing in the actual game to point to the battle being a lost cause) with the goal of whitewashing Loghain.

I actually agree with this.

Seems that after David wrote the books, he grown rather fond of Loghain and is now making him less evil.
Or at elast that's the vibe I'm getting.

I beg to differ. I simply think that many of us have jumped into conclusions about what really happened. I have so far seen nothing to suggest that what he explains about Loghain isn't what he planned all along.

[MGeezer]

I think that one cannot have it both ways--either Loghain is incompetent, or Loghain intnded the death of the King. He cannot be both competent and well-intentioned.



Loghain took two responsibilities in the battle--he came up with the battle plan, and was responsible for securing the Tower of Ishar. Even though Loghain disagreed with the strategic decision to fight at Ostagar with existing troops, he came up with a battle plan--a battle plan that had the interesting feature that if the enemy is stronger than expected the King dies and half the Army is lost. Loghain also took responsibility for securing the Tower of Ishar, which he miserably failed to do. The man is either incompetant and undeserving of his reputation as a tactician, or he, at a minimum, intended the death of the King if the Darkspawn were strong than expected.



Too much reasoning about Loghain starts with him seeing the beacon light and asking what to do then. Loghain's role sttarted much earlier, and we only arrive at that position as a result of two failures on his part,--1) failure to secure the Tower of Ishar, and 2) a battle plan that will reulst in huge losses if the enmey shows up in unexpected numbers.\\

[Althernai]

Here is what David Gaider actually said on the subject:

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement.
Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy.
I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his
strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind,
Loghain still wasn't certain that
he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley
could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his
belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted
perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly
the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had
anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment
Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he
prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through
with it until right then.

Link.

So Loghain did not believe that he could win, but this does not mean Ostagar could not have been won (the latter is left up to the player). To be honest, given all of the things Loghain did in anticipation of a chance to get rid of Cailan, I'm leaning towards the idea that he saw what he wanted to see.

[Coldcall01]

Bigtoke421 wrote...

I'm on my third play through thus far.  Every time I watch the battle of Ostagar I can't help but to think that the addition of Loghains troops could have turned the tide. 

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why this could or could not have been possible?

The idea was that Logain would do a textbook flanking action once the darkspawn had committed. I think its fair to assume it would have had a high chance of success. Also the King dies sometime after the flame of the Tower was lit by PC and Alistair, so Bioware certainly made it look like Logain's retreat doomed all.

But hell, Logain had to be a bastard or there would be now point to the game :-)

[Coldcall01]

What is sort of interesting about DAO story, is that (up to near the end of my first playthrough) i always suspected Logain was being used by the archdemon, and he was tied up with the darkspawn. Its refreshing that Logain's insanity was down to human frailty, paranoia and the grasp for power. I like how the story shows that even with a terrifying external threat human society will rather fight itself.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

No. It could not have been won, as proven in RTO.

I don't consider claims for a single soldier proof, especially since we have opposite claims too.

So you would take Alistair's word, despite him being standing at the beacon.  You would take the word of a Noble's son as to what his friend said, despite the Noble's son not being there.  These are the words that you consider the truth, despite Alistair not having any better view of what's going on than you did.  In a later post, you mention a colored view, and isn't Alistair's opinion also colored by Duncan's death, something that he can't seem to come to terms with.  In Alistair's desire to blame somebody, he assumes the battle could have been won, but this is proof positive that it could?  Talk about colored views.

Whether the battle at Ostagar could have been won or not, we will never know for sure.  That we have 1 source without RtO that was actually on the field that claims otherwise raises doubt.  Second hand information from a soldier that could not see the battle is irrelevant, although clouded by his disappearance.  This is how the Noble's son winds up in the dungeon in the first place.  Loghain's forces were far enough removed from the battlefield that they could withdraw without fighting their way out, and this speaks volumes about whether that one soldier's information is worthwhile.  If they were far enough, or hidden well enough that they could quit the field without fighting means that they couldn't know one way or the other.  Whether Loghain could see any of the field, or none of it, his soldiers couldn't see it at all.

So, we have Alistair saying that the battle could be won, but he's with the PC, and if he could see it, so could you, and a soldier that couldn't have been able to see the field saying it could be won, yet their word carries more weight than somebody that was actually on the field and survived?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Even if Ostagar was winnable (which is highly in question). The resulting battle would have most likely weakened Ferelden's army. At best, it would have been a pyrrhic victory. A defeat at Ostagar would not have been disastrous for the darkspawn, as the Archdemon had yet to reveal itself by that point and armies were being gathered underground. A pyrrhic victory at Ostagar however, would have been disastrous for Ferelden anyways.

[Kilyra]

I think Ostagar could have been won, I mean the whole drawing in to flank tactic is pretty sound...as long as you aren't outsmarted by the enemy who is waiting to flank your flank, being that it was darkspawn though I don't think they would have done that... But it wouldn't have ended the blight, the Archdemon wasn't out on the surface just yet.

[Carodej]

All this discussion is exactly why BW needs to put a team on making the strategy game Battle for Ostagar!

Personally, I think the battle could have been won.  But it certainly was not a sure thing and I think it could have gone either way.  Of course if those idiots Cailan and Loghain had been doing what was best for Ferelden, it would have been a different story.

Cailan was far too interested in getting glory.  Loghain's obsession with Orlais made him far too concerned with his own machinations to oppose Cailan and Cailan's allies.  (I mean seriously, a threat somewhat distant in time that puts you under the rule of someone you hate, or the immediate threat of being dead and ending up as someone's dinner - tell me which really is more important to focus on at this time?)  So this meant Loghain's plan was built to make it easy for them to lose while allowing Loghain's troops to flee with little loss.  *sigh*

If they had fought that battle smarter, or waited for more troops and fought smarter, I think victory would have been assured.  As it is, it's a toss up.

But Loghain's decision to withdraw was treason.  He might have thought it was smart to withdraw, but his viewpoint was quite biased.  Which doesn't mean he wasn't right, just that Loghain was not very objective about the whole thing,

[_Aine_]

I think that regardless of the beliefs on all parties that influenced who was present at Ostagar, at the *moment* of the battle, everything I have come to know so far about Loghain is that he would be willing to sacrifice ANYTHING for Ferelden. Perhaps I am wrong and the fact that I have come to slightly understand and actually *gulp* like Loghain ( which, btw does not mean i agree with or sympathise with his decisions ) but I think the decision was made when he saw the beacon lit. It was lit too late I think... do you send your men in at that point and risk losing everything simply to stick to plan?



There are plenty of what-ifs: what if Loghain had not been so adamant about rejecting Orlais assistance? Everyone seemed to agree they needed more troops. Caillan was just unwilling to accept that this battle could possibly fail. His naive arrogance in this regard was apparent with the conversation in front of the pc. What if Duncan had used his obvious influence as a Grey Warden to smack some sense into Caillan -- to me everyone had their arguments on why someone elses idea was unnecessary based on personal bias - hell even the sister and mage started arguing. *IF* Loghain had not been so vehemently opposed to Orlais assistance perhaps his opinion would not have seemed so out of line. It was almost identical on both sides, Caillan rolling his eyes at what he considered an outdated hatred of Orlais clouding Loghains judgement and Loghain rolling his eyes at what he may have considered dangerous glory seeking in the name of story-tales allowing weakly defended Ferelden against not only dark-spawn but for him, more fearfully Orlais.



I keep flip flopping on what i think of that battle, but i get the nagging suspicion had we only lit the beacon sooner.... but then, there would be no game, would there

[Jean de Valette]

Kilyra wrote...

I think Ostagar could have been won, I mean the whole drawing in to flank tactic is pretty sound...as long as you aren't outsmarted by the enemy who is waiting to flank your flank, being that it was darkspawn though I don't think they would have done that... But it wouldn't have ended the blight, the Archdemon wasn't out on the surface just yet.

Flank attacks alone don't win the battle.

Ostagar couldn't have been won because to be perfectly honest, Bioware devs have little historical knowledge of ancient/medieval warfare.

They had Cailen stand there like Mel Gibson in Braveheart, surrounded only by melee warriors. As if that's what actually happened in the battles William Wallace fought against the English

The first thing any army did in history right up to WW2 (that a lot of history folks) was digging in, if they weren't ambushed that is. Or they hid inside fortifications (yeah I know what Patton said, but he had tanks). Standing out in the open just like that is asking for spanking. Especially outnumbered so badly as Feralden's forces were. And they didn't even lay out traps or throw up obsticals and barricades. And they didn't bring along enough artillery or missile weapons (which can even the odds, just ask Henry V or Edward the Black Prince against the French). And Ostagar sucked as a battlefield, there was barely room for maneuver or to make a organized retreat. It was basically a death trap if you ask me.

I'm planning to make a thread about it sometime, but I'd just end with, that I wish someone at Bioware took the trouble of reading Caeser's Gallic Wars before linking Loghain to  "battlefield genius ". Loghain was about as much 'genius' as McClellan, Pope, Burnside and Hooker were when they got their Union behinds handed to them by the numeratically inferior Army of North Virginia.

[GmanFresh]

if duncan let me join the battle.....of course..