160 réponses à ce sujet

[lqutois]

quick question what is RTO? Haven't seen that yet.

[Monica21]

Prosthetics511 wrote...

The way I see it, since Gray Wardens can sense the horde, if Duncan thought they could win, they probably would have if Loghain didn't wuss out.

I didn't get the impression Duncan thought they could win. Duncan wanted to wait for the Grey Wardens from Orlais. He knew the horde was bigger than estimated and knew it was a true Blight.

That said, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the battle was not winnable, even though I know nothing about battle tactics, Loghain's decision to retreat or not. If they had waited for reinforcements, what then? Do they pull back to Lothering and make their stand there? Given the troops they had and when the Darkspawn invaded, I think it would have been a phyrric victory at best.

[Monica21]

Zemore wrote...

i do belive that battle was winnible but it would have been a fleeting Victory the real question i ask is How would it effect the blight if the battle was a Victory?

Unless the archdemon was killed, it's still a blight.

[Zemore]

Monica21 wrote...

Zemore wrote...

i do belive that battle was winnible but it would have been a fleeting Victory the real question i ask is How would it effect the blight if the battle was a Victory?

Unless the archdemon was killed, it's still a blight.

and thats not answering the question thats just ignoring it and stating an obvious fact 
if there is 1 archedemon and 2 darkspawn its still a blight the difference is theres no horde to defend the archdemon from a full out punch to the face by 2000 troops

so again what effect would that battle being Won have had .... the story would have changed significantly based on the battle being won.

[Monica21]

Zemore wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Zemore wrote...

i do belive that battle was winnible but it would have been a fleeting Victory the real question i ask is How would it effect the blight if the battle was a Victory?

Unless the archdemon was killed, it's still a blight.

and thats not answering the question thats just ignoring it and stating an obvious fact 
if there is 1 archedemon and 2 darkspawn its still a blight the difference is theres no horde to defend the archdemon from a full out punch to the face by 2000 troops

so again what effect would that battle being Won have had .... the story would have changed significantly based on the battle being won.

Um, yes, it would have, but you're speculating anyway. "How would it affect the blight?" "Won the battle but not yet the war." And even then, only a Grey Warden can kill the archdemon. What's your point, exactly?

[lqutois]

There was supposed to be a signal for when the beacon was supposed to be lit a signal that those at the beacon could see but logain could not.  The army at the foot of the fortification would signal the tower the tower would light the beacon.  They had to wait until ALL the horde attacked they had to make sure they didn't leave any behind either.  I think he could have an idea when that was going to happen but he couldn't know how long it was going to take exactly.  I mean maybe they do leave some behind and don't attack with full strength, maybe they stand around and try and scare the humans into running.  He also didn't want any gray wardens around the tower so I think the idea that he thought the beacon was lit late because the wardens were betraying the king is very far fetched.  It is pretty clear from what is in the game (which is what I follow much more than a writers comments about their own work game or book ESPECIALLY when it is written by a large number of people) that he was planning from the begining not to have the beacon lit (that is why he wanted his people or the mages there and not the wardens).

Solica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The whole idea of the beacon is a tactical farce anyways. There was no way the PC and Alistair could know when was the right time. We just had to rush in and light it asap. The entire battle makes very little sense if you think about it. 
But as Mary Kirby said, Loghain could see parts of the battle (not all of it), thus could have an idea of when to charge. The beacon was supposed to be the signal, but it was not to be lit on a precise timing. It just was to be lit as soon as the darkspawn reached the valley. And that shouldn't take too long. Thus, Loghain had every reason to start suspecting, as the beacon took longer than he thought.

The Grey WArdens were assigned to light the beacon. By that point, Loghain's original plan was in jeaopordy. He couldn't control the beacon anymore. So yes it would be stupid on his part to wait for the beacon he knows will be lit, if he had planned to retreat anyways.
A further proof that Loghain wasn't sure he would retreat is that he didn't insist that Uldred lights the beacon. If he was 100% sure that he was going to retreat before the battle, he would have assigned Uldred to the beacon from the very beginning and Cailan would not have objected. Loghain did not insist on the issue, while he could have.

Yes, only when the beacon as lit, did he make up his mind. The battle was a lost cause and he was leaving. Before that, he did not yet decide what he was going to do and his suspions started to aggravate because the Wardens were taking too long to light the beacon (which would have been highly suspicious to a man who planned for the possibility of not lighting it in the first place). 

Of course, all of this is talking about what's in Loghain's mind. You may not find any argument in my post, just like I don't find any argument in your post. It's all speculation. We are just linking facts and trying to make sense of them. I am aligning my speculation with what Mr. Gaider said.

Still is very unconvincing. First of all if it truly was a farce, then that would just be more damning evidence against Loghain. But maybe it wasn't. (I personally feel that this convenient info that Loghain could see part of the battlefield comes terribly late, but never mind...) Maybe the purpose was that it would be lit when all the darkspawn were committed into the valley? Just like M.K. said? So that Loghain's forces wouldn't be sandwiched? Like M.K. said?
In that case Alistair and the PC CAN know and KNOWS that the right time is now.

[Zemore]

Monica21 wrote...

Zemore wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Zemore wrote...

i do belive that battle was winnible but it would have been a fleeting Victory the real question i ask is How would it effect the blight if the battle was a Victory?

Unless the archdemon was killed, it's still a blight.

and thats not answering the question thats just ignoring it and stating an obvious fact 
if there is 1 archedemon and 2 darkspawn its still a blight the difference is theres no horde to defend the archdemon from a full out punch to the face by 2000 troops

so again what effect would that battle being Won have had .... the story would have changed significantly based on the battle being won.

Um, yes, it would have, but you're speculating anyway. "How would it affect the blight?" "Won the battle but not yet the war." And even then, only a Grey Warden can kill the archdemon. What's your point, exactly?

this topic is called "could Ostagar have been won" Speculatory topic imo and  Its a video game 90% of the info they give you about the world is open to speculation  so of bloody course its speculation was my thoughts on a fantasy world that i dident make myself meant to be anything but speculation unless im told my thoughts are right or wrong? if you expect concrete answers then your really barking up the wrong tree talking to forum members

not to mention i stated that ostagar would have been a fleeting Victory never the less i never said the blight would end with it so  ill ask you your own question whats your point?

Modifié par Zemore, 21 janvier 2010 - 01:44 .

[lqutois]

It is said in the begining of this section if you ask when are we to light the beacon that you are to light it when they signal you from the battlefield and right before he lights it allistar says we have undoubtedly missed the SIGNAL so lets light it quickly.

[quote]Vicious wrote...

[quote]Korva wrote...

Frankly if it becomes "official" that Ostagar wasn't winnable then I'm going to feel really ticked off and my already-faded interest in this game/franchise is going to fade even more because it stinks of nonsensical retconning (since there's nothing in the actual game to point to the battle being a lost cause) with the goal of whitewashing Loghain.[/quote]

[/quote]

lol, thats quite a stance to take. 'I am losing interest in the story because it's turning out the villain might actually have reasons for what he does that might possibly make sense.'


Anyway David Gaider indicates that the Darkspawn horde was HUGE. Probably a lot bigger than the game represented. Flanking attacks don't always work, to the armchair generals. Particularly when your enemy outnumbers you and has zero morale issues.

And keep in mind even if the battle WAS won, it would have been at great and horrible cost. A cost of which is ultimately pointless since the Archdemon was still underground, and he had untold legions of Darkspawn gathering by the time you run into him in the Deep Trenches.

food for thought.[/quote]

[Monica21]

Zemore wrote...
this topic is called "could Ostagar have been won" Speculatory topic imo and  Its a video game 90% of the info they give you about the world is open to speculation  so of bloody course its speculation was my thoughts on a fantasy world that i dident make myself meant to be anything but speculation unless im told my thoughts are right or wrong? if you expect concrete answers then your really barking up the wrong tree talking to forum members

not to mention i stated that ostagar would have been a fleeting Victory never the less i never said the blight would end with it so  ill ask you your own question whats your point?

Alrighty....

I know that this is a forum and that the topic itself is speculative, but I'm not sure what answer you're looking for. If Ostagar was won without killing the archdemon or without him showing himself, he would have built up his troops and attacked somewhere else.

[Zemore]

Monica21 wrote...

Alrighty....

I know that this is a forum and that the topic itself is speculative, but I'm not sure what answer you're looking for. If Ostagar was won without killing the archdemon or without him showing himself, he would have built up his troops and attacked somewhere else.

Im not really looking for an answer because there isnt one but is there any harm in dreaming i see it as a logical step up from the topic If the battle was won what would it change and why

the obvious one would be if the battle was won after Loghain left ... hed be in deep doodoo

its my nature to question things and ponder on what could have been so all i was looking for in an answer was artistic license? who knows

[eschilde]

Solica wrote...
Mmm. Plausible. I haven't really seen D.G. reject this though. (He might have, ofc, just stating I haven't seen this)

Original post here

David Gaider wrote...

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions. 

Naturally, anything DG or another writer says on the board can be taken however you like as the player. It's not strictly in the game. However, I believe it's been stated in various places by different devs that Ostagar probably could not have been won. DG said in another post in the same thread (don't feel like digging but you can if you want) that both Loghain and Cailan could see that the numbers of the horde were swelling, despite having won all the previous battles at Ostagar, as well as stating that the numbers of the horde during the last battle were much greater than expected.

So to answer the OP's question, no, probably not. And if it could have been won, the costs would likely have been too great to make it worth winning.

Edit:
@lqutois
RTO is short for Return to Ostagar, the next DLC to be released by Bioware for DA. It was supposed to have been released recently, but has not been, presumably due to problems. Basically, it lets you return to Ostagar (who would have thought..) to get Cailan's armor, and apparently answer some questions about Ostagar. Possibly even questions like the topic title

Modifié par eschilde, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:17 .

[Monica21]

eschilde wrote...
Naturally, anything DG or another writer says on the board can be taken however you like as the player. It's not strictly in the game. However, I believe it's been stated in various places by different devs that Ostagar probably could not have been won. DG said in another post in the same thread (don't feel like digging but you can if you want) that both Loghain and Cailan could see that the numbers of the horde were swelling, despite having won all the previous battles at Ostagar, as well as stating that the numbers of the horde during the last battle were much greater than expected.

So to answer the OP's question, no, probably not. And if it could have been won, the costs would likely have been too great to make it worth winning.

This has probably been discussed and I've missed it, but this is the point where I don't understand Loghain's actions after Ostagar. If the battle was unwinnable, he didn't have to lay the blame on the Wardens. If he had gone back to Denerim and sided with the Wardens he could have had them build the army of Dwarves, Elves and Mages, won the battle and then probably have been named king because he would have been seen as the savior and not the villian. He would have been in a much stronger position for power had he not turned against the Wardens, so what was his point in doing so?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
This has probably been discussed and I've missed it, but this is the point where I don't understand Loghain's actions after Ostagar. If the battle was unwinnable, he didn't have to lay the blame on the Wardens. If he had gone back to Denerim and sided with the Wardens he could have had them build the army of Dwarves, Elves and Mages, won the battle and then probably have been named king because he would have been seen as the savior and not the villian. He would have been in a much stronger position for power had he not turned against the Wardens, so what was his point in doing so?

Because he believed the Wardens were in cahoots with Orlais and were leading legions of Chevaliers back into Ferelden. Also, Loghain didn't really know the importance of the warden and why they were necessary. He didn't know that only they can defeat a blight. He merely dismissed Warden tales from centuries back as exagerrated myths and stories.
THAT is where Loghain is mistaken and his logic flawed. But it is an error based upon ignorance and not something else. He truly didn't know why the Wardens were special and necessary. Once he knew, he said that his regret from Ostagar is that many Wardens died. Had Loghain known that the Wardens were necessary, I believe he would have done things quite differently.  
This is also tied to him thinking that the horde was not a blight. But this was also due to his ignorance vis a vis the Wardens. Only they knew it was a Blight.
 
EDIT: plus, he didn't know about the treaties. But he was already tryign to create alliances with the circle and with Orzammar and was unlucky in both cases. Orzammar's king died and Uldred messed up. Loghain was truly unlucky.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:36 .

[eschilde]

@Monica21
I'm not sure if that's been discussed by a dev, but it's quite likely Loghain blamed the Wardens because he didn't want the Orlesian Wardens coming in.
1) He didn't know for sure that there were any Wardens still alive in Fereldan. All of them (except the two of you) were fighting beside the king. He saw the beacon, which means he knew you two got to the top of the tower, and he also left you to be overwhelmed by darkspawn.
2) He knew Cailan sent for the Orlesian Wardens, and he did not want them in Fereldan.
3) The treaties were not officially known to anyone outside the Wardens. Loghain sent his own emissary to Orzammar, if you'll recall the guy arguing with the guard at Frostback. He also had an idea of what Uldred was going to do in the Circle, and was counting on their backing (though, obviously, Uldred screwed that up pretty badly.) There's no evidence he sent anyone after the Dalish, but considering how the Dalish act towards humans, that's not exactly surprising. He probably figured he couldn't count on their help.

Sure, Loghain could have sided with the Wardens, but that would have been insanely out of character and involved allying with Orlesians, something Loghain would never, ever, ever do. He clearly thought he could defeat the Blight under his own power, and it's possible that if you as the GWs weren't working against him at every step, he might have succeeded. We'll never know, will we?

Modifié par eschilde, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:33 .

[RangerSG]

Monica21 wrote...

eschilde wrote...
Naturally, anything DG or another writer says on the board can be taken however you like as the player. It's not strictly in the game. However, I believe it's been stated in various places by different devs that Ostagar probably could not have been won. DG said in another post in the same thread (don't feel like digging but you can if you want) that both Loghain and Cailan could see that the numbers of the horde were swelling, despite having won all the previous battles at Ostagar, as well as stating that the numbers of the horde during the last battle were much greater than expected.

So to answer the OP's question, no, probably not. And if it could have been won, the costs would likely have been too great to make it worth winning.

This has probably been discussed and I've missed it, but this is the point where I don't understand Loghain's actions after Ostagar. If the battle was unwinnable, he didn't have to lay the blame on the Wardens. If he had gone back to Denerim and sided with the Wardens he could have had them build the army of Dwarves, Elves and Mages, won the battle and then probably have been named king because he would have been seen as the savior and not the villian. He would have been in a much stronger position for power had he not turned against the Wardens, so what was his point in doing so?

I would say for the same reason he agreed to have the Wardens on the front lines. He thought the Wardens were in bed with Orlais (not without reason). Duncan is campaigning to bring in Orlesian Chevaliers along with their GWs. Cailan is all good with that. Loghain believes that is because he's thinking about a personal union with the Orlesian Empress, which would undo--in his mind--all the work they did to free Fereldan.

He poisons Arl Eamon to keep his men away from the battle, not knowing how far out of control that would spin things. Why? Eamon is in bed with an Orlesian (literally) and Loghain knows whatever Cailan decides, Eamon will do. And if Eamon is on the front lines with Cailan (which I'm sure he anticipated he would be) then the losses sustained would be that much higher.

A hammer and anvil strategy (which Ostagar was) always presumes the anvil will take a beating. The Grey Wardens were placed in the position of the anvil. There's no point saying the battle plan wasn't designed to get them killed. But as Wynne's story would indicate, that's what Wardens do. And in any case, who better to draw out the horde than the Wardens?

Once Cailan insists on joining the Wardens, Loghain is willing to sacrifice the King based on the promise Maric made him give. Could Ostagar have been won? Sure, if the anvil would've been big enough to hold up (having Eamon's men). Or maybe even as it was if Loghain would've charged. But it's likely it would've been a pyrrhic victory. I don't think Loghain 'knew' the battle was lost objectively. He 'felt' it was lost based on a number of things, the time it would take, his own opinion on the goals, the 'fact' it really wasn't a Blight, and his promise to Maric and the cost/benefit (in his mind) of saving a King who would sell Ferelden to Orlais. I would say he may not have planned on selling out Cailan. But he didn't shed any tears over doing it.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
This has probably been discussed and I've missed it, but this is the point where I don't understand Loghain's actions after Ostagar. If the battle was unwinnable, he didn't have to lay the blame on the Wardens. If he had gone back to Denerim and sided with the Wardens he could have had them build the army of Dwarves, Elves and Mages, won the battle and then probably have been named king because he would have been seen as the savior and not the villian. He would have been in a much stronger position for power had he not turned against the Wardens, so what was his point in doing so?

Because he believed the Wardens were in cahoots with Orlais and were leading legions of Chevaliers back into Ferelden. Also, Loghain didn't really know the importance of the warden and why they were necessary. He didn't know that only they can defeat a blight. He merely dismissed Warden tales from centuries back as exagerrated myths and stories.
THAT is where Loghain is mistaken and his logic flawed. But it is an error based upon ignorance and not something else. He truly didn't know why the Wardens were special and necessary. Once he knew, he said that his regret from Ostagar is that many Wardens died. Had Loghain known that the Wardens were necessary, I believe he would have done things quite differently.  
This is also tied to him thinking that the horde was not a blight. But this was also due to his ignorance vis a vis the Wardens. Only they knew it was a Blight.
 
EDIT: plus, he didn't know about the treaties. But he was already tryign to create alliances with the circle and with Orzammar and was unlucky in both cases. Orzammar's king died and Uldred messed up. Loghain was truly unlucky.

Did I miss that dialogue in the game somewhere about him fearing the Wardens were in league with Orlais? Before Ostagar Duncan or Cailan mentioned waiting for reinforcements from Orlais. Were they referring to Wardens or Chevaliers? And Orlesian Grey Wardens != Orlais, but I suppose he wouldn't have understood that, especially considering he didn't understand the importance of the Wardens.

And following that logic, what did Loghain think the Wardens were trying to accomplish if he did believe they were in league with Orlais? Did he think the Blight (or raid, as he believed) would offer an excuse to allow Orlais back into Ferelden and retake it, and that the Wardens would somehow benefit from it? Trying to unravel the threads of a paranoid mind is not easy.

[RangerSG]

Loghain says at one point that the Orlesian Wardens had Chevaliers along with. I'm pretty sure Riordin confirms this if you ask. And given the friendly relations between Cailan and the Empress, I don't see why she wouldn't have provided the troops as aid to her friend, quite probably innocently.

[darkwonders]

Has no one read the Stolen Throne? Loghain had very, very good reason to not want Cailan to form an alliance with the Orlesians. It might have undone everything he and Maric fought for when they were younger.



And it should be noted that Cailan was Maric's son. It must have been very hard for Loghain to choose what he did... but he had to protect what he and Cailan's father fought for, even if it meant letting Cailan perish. He did not want to have to drive out the Orlesians again. It didn't help that he feared the grey wardens were allies with the Orlesians... Oh and besides that, Loghain has an even bigger reason to hate the Orleasians... but I'll save that for those who haven't read the book. Anything else I said can be picked up before reading the book as you know Ferelden has to be free of the Orleasians by the end of the book otherwise Dragon Age Origins would never happen.



Reading that book definitely gave me a new view on Loghain. I no longer hate him for what he did. However, I feel like I still have to execute him at the end for justice as he still betrayed the king. If you have read the book you'll understand where I'm coming from.

[_Aine_]

Well, in one of the previous blights -- Orlais came to the aid of Antiva and someone else I am failing to recall at this moment. Once the blight was dealt with and over Orlais turned on their allies and occupied their lands. (Someone pls correct me if i am wrong as I don't have the data in front of me atm and mind is fuzzy for varying reasons atm ) So, despite his own personal fears and paranoia regarding Orlais -- his ....hesitation is not without historical precedent either....

[eschilde]

Monica21 wrote...

Did I miss that dialogue in the game somewhere about him fearing the Wardens were in league with Orlais? Before Ostagar Duncan or Cailan mentioned waiting for reinforcements from Orlais. Were they referring to Wardens or Chevaliers? And Orlesian Grey Wardens != Orlais, but I suppose he wouldn't have understood that, especially considering he didn't understand the importance of the Wardens.

And following that logic, what did Loghain think the Wardens were trying to accomplish if he did believe they were in league with Orlais? Did he think the Blight (or raid, as he believed) would offer an excuse to allow Orlais back into Ferelden and retake it, and that the Wardens would somehow benefit from it? Trying to unravel the threads of a paranoid mind is not easy.

Loghain says it first in the War Council, yes, and Cailan also specifically says that Wardens fight the Blight no matter where they're from. Loghain hears that, but whether he believes it is something else. It's also mentioned in the cut scene where Anora confronts Loghain about Cailan's death, with some extra dialogue/party banter if you recruit Loghain. There's also a couple of soldiers in Ostagar who chat about what Fereldan will do if Orlais sends chevaliers and then refuses to leave.

There were supposed to be supporting troops from both the Chevaliers and the Wardens. Riordan also has some numbers and explicitly mentions cavalry, but not whether they are Warden cavalry or Orlesian military, though one can assume the cavalry=chevaliers. Loghain spent a good deal of his youth helping Maric free Fereldan from Orlais. The Orlesian occupation was not a good time for Fereldan, which Loghain will explain if you recruit him. It's not something that's very explicit in the game, unfortunately, besides talking to him personally. Yes, Loghain was paranoid, and yes, he was assuming that letting the Orlesians in would eventually lead to their trying to retake Fereldan. That includes Orlesian Grey Wardens. However, it was not precisely without reason, he simply didn't understand the Grey Wardens purpose.

Consider that the Wardens were mostly in tales and legends, and that they had been disbanded in Fereldan prior to Maric's reinstating them. Their numbers are very few in Fereldan, so naturally Duncan wanted reinforcements from the Orlesian GWs. Basically, they were practically an unestablished order in Fereldan, whereas Loghain was a very established general who had the trust of his troops. Why should Loghain allow Orlesians to take control of the campaign? Not to mention, it's been 400 years since the last Blight, and only 30 years since the Orlesian occupation. One of them is a bit fresher in his mind than the other :S

Modifié par eschilde, 21 janvier 2010 - 03:05 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Did I miss that dialogue in the game somewhere about him fearing the Wardens were in league with Orlais? Before Ostagar Duncan or Cailan mentioned waiting for reinforcements from Orlais. Were they referring to Wardens or Chevaliers? And Orlesian Grey Wardens != Orlais, but I suppose he wouldn't have understood that, especially considering he didn't understand the importance of the Wardens.

And following that logic, what did Loghain think the Wardens were trying to accomplish if he did believe they were in league with Orlais? Did he think the Blight (or raid, as he believed) would offer an excuse to allow Orlais back into Ferelden and retake it, and that the Wardens would somehow benefit from it? Trying to unravel the threads of a paranoid mind is not easy.

The Wardens were marching at the head of an Orlesian army. Riordan confirms it

He thought that the Wardens were working with Orlais and were trying to use the darkspawn as excuse to invade Ferelden. The Wardens have had bad history in Ferelden politics. The Wardens could benefit. We know they are deeply involved in politics in the Anderfels. And of course, who is to say that Orlesians would leave Ferelden after the deed was done? His fear of Orlais, though perhaps exagerrated, is not politically unsound. The fact that Orlais has the largest amount of Wardens may have led him to believe that they were close to the Empress (which is maybe true).

Loghain's suspicions were somewhat true. Cailan was planing on marrying the Orlesian Empress and her assistance against the blight would have provided Cailan's proposed marriage the legitimacy it needed. Effectively, Orlais woudl have regained Ferelden, but through marriage instead of war. Loghain suspected this (didn't know entirely).

As a sidenote. Riordan tells us that the Orlesian Wardens decided to let the blight destroy Ferelden, while they stood by and prepared. This was due to Loghain not allowing them to go in. But they did not insist either. They were willing to let Ferelden burn, and then strike out, alongside Orlesian Chevaliers, against the Archdemon. Which is good thinking of course, the Wardens of Orlais were not going to waste ressources trying to fight the civil war.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 janvier 2010 - 03:09 .

[Dragon Age1103]

I don't think there is enough supporting evidence to prove the battle could of been won or that it was impossible to win but I think no matter what the numbers were (unless 5 million-a thousand or something drastic. lol.) with Loghain we would of stood a good chance. I'm glad the King fell though, I wouldn't of said that prior to what I learned at RTO(no i haven't played it just watched a video play through for pc since it is never coming out ).

[Monica21]

Thanks to both eschilde and KnightofPhoenix, and my apologies for requiring such a long-winded explanation. Good thing I'm playing through again. Apparently I missed a lot of politics the first time.

[eschilde]

@Monica21

You're welcome.



As an aside, apparently people are quoting info from RtO although it's not even out yet.. come on, guys.. let's try to watch spoilers here.. it's not even official yet =="

[The Gay Warden]

Loghain pwns all.



'Nuff said.