160 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Phoebus]

Without knowing the degrees to which the Darkspawn hive mind works for communication, whether Darkspawn can succumb to panic, the exact layout of the battlefield and the position of Loghain's troops you can't really say whether the attack would have worked or not.



From what I gathered they tried to lure the Darkspawn into the valley, Cailan would fall back and Loghain would come in behind the horde effectively forming two lines at the twelve and six position, with the Darkspawn caught in the middle. If that is the plan, it's a risky one as you aren't leaving the darkspawn a path of retreat. Historically, fights against a cornered enemy have always been unpredictable. If the darkspawn panic, the Ferelden forces will probably win. If they stand and fight, they'll fight like cornered animals and, since they have greater numbers, the Darkspawn will probably win that fight.

[Joshd21]

I say it could have been won simply because the Arch Demon wasn't there yet and they already fought with a couple battles and won. Simply because they could have saved the king, would certaintly make it easier to do the blight

[QuiTamGogh]

I won Ostagar. What, you guys didn't?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...
I beg to differ. I simply think that many of us have jumped into conclusions about what really happened. I have so far been nothing to suggest that what he explains about Loghain isn't what he planned all along.

Look man, I realise what you're saying, but you cannot really tell me what vibe I'm getting.
I'm getting what I'm getting. Period.

This is not an accusation or anything. Just a simple statement. Heck, Loghain is Davids character - he can do whatever he wasnts with him. If he wants to make him into a balet dancer in the next expansion, he's free to do it.

HOw that exactly comes across and how people feel about it - that is not in his control however.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

No. It could not have been won, as proven in RTO.

I don't consider claims for a single soldier proof, especially since we have opposite claims too.

So you would take Alistair's word, despite him being standing at the beacon.  You would take the word of a Noble's son as to what his friend said, despite the Noble's son not being there.  These are the words that you consider the truth, despite Alistair not having any better view of what's going on than you did.

ESPECIALLY because of standing at the beacon. Top of a tall tower? HELOOOO? Talk about having a great overview of the situation. And yes, Al's perception might be colored too. Everyones can. So let's not trust anyone, shall we?

We got officers in camp confident of victory even if outnumbred. We have Duncan (who can sense darkspawn really well, being an old grey warden) not flinching from the battle at all. We have several other people in the game thinking it could have been won.
So yea.

But even if it wasn't winnable it still doesn't excuse Loghain. His battle plan was terrible, if there was no retreat option for the king. Heck, he didn't even send a runner to the king when he "saw" (of what little he could see) the numbers are great. He could have made an organized, fighting retreat. Yes, there would be losses if he went to get the king - but you're a kings general leading a kings army. Getting the king is your duty.
Basicly Loghain failed miserably at every point, long before the battle started.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Even if Ostagar was winnable (which is highly in question). The resulting battle would have most likely weakened Ferelden's army. At best, it would have been a pyrrhic victory. A defeat at Ostagar would not have been disastrous for the darkspawn, as the Archdemon had yet to reveal itself by that point and armies were being gathered underground. A pyrrhic victory at Ostagar however, would have been disastrous for Ferelden anyways.

I disagree. A Phyric victory at Ostagar would have contained the darkspawn (cannot stress the importance of NOT having an army rampaging across your lands) AND stopped the civil war. Both of those would enable Ferelden to be much more effective at defending itself.

I consider it Loghains duty to fight to the death to keep the Darkspawn out of Ferelden.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 janvier 2010 - 08:54 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The whole idea of the beacon is a tactical farce anyways. There was no way the PC and Alistair could know when was the right time. We just had to rush in and light it asap. The entire battle makes very little sense if you think about it.

Actually, no. It's clear the kings army would signal Alistair, who would signal Cailan. Makes perfect snese. From the top of the tower one could see the battlefield, and any single given by the king could be easily seen.
Duncan sez that AListair would know when.
This is a battle. There is no such thing as "light it at 10:45". This was a singnal fora  flanking manouver, and you can't tell how fast or where the enemy will move. you cannot predict such moves in advance with any degree of accuracy. Of course, I'm talkiong about minutes here. If a half an hour passes wihout the signal, that is too much.
But the player can get to the top of the tower in a straight line really fast.

But as Mary Kirby said, Loghain could see parts of the battle (not all of it), thus could have an idea of when to charge. The beacon was supposed to be the signal, but it was not to be lit on a precise timing. It just was to be lit as soon as the darkspawn reached the valley. And that shouldn't take too long. Thus, Loghain had every reason to start suspecting, as the beacon took longer than he thought.

A VERY samll aprt of hte battle. His view was trough a gorge or something. You cannot make any tactical decisions.
Davids commetns leave a lot of questions.
We know Loghian didn't plan to kill eamon, jsut put him out of comission. He also didn't sanction Howe's attack, but did "rewards" him for it afterwards.
We know he was starting to move against Cailan before Ostagar. We know he planned for the posibility of abandoning him. If this is true - and it is - then such thinking would seep into his battleplan.
Is it a conincidence his battleplan was setup as it is - the king in the open, with no fallback plan and him far away in a position from which he can deny almost anything?
Add the fact that he was more concerend with Orlais than the darkspawn and you can see why things happened like they did.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 janvier 2010 - 09:12 .

[Krytheos]

It  is both my belief, and understanding that, in fact, Ostagar could not have been won. As others have done, I'll try to explain it with as many facts, and possibilities as I can, and try to present reasonable facts from the one's known.

So, to begin with; I reiterate my statement. Ostagar was, and is very likely, unwinnable. Firstly, I must point out this argument is opinion-based as well as fact based, as much as is possible; if I have missed something then it is my fault. Onwards, then.

Point Start:

Upon first entering Ostagar, you greet the King alongside Duncan. Disregarding an iteration on the entire conversations, the basic gist is: 'We have won many battles here today, so a victory is almost assured.' would be likely, the entire gist of the conversations, and take note of the world almost; it has specific meaning in 'almost.' Duncan states his doubts clearly; the possibility is there, but it is still unlikely. But his duty to the King came first; any discussion about waiting was entirely up to Cailan and Loghain. Cailan prompts the option of waiting for the Orlesian Chevaliers and Wardens, who were ready to come if needed by that point. Loghain -- as Zathrian once pointed out, though not specifically, 'Your nature compels it, as does mine.' to this battle, but these words hold much wisdom still -- reading into the 'nature', aspect..

We then dwell into Cailan's mind. I cannot accurately say what he was thinking, but I can give a basic breakdown of it. What Cailan wanted, what Cailan thought, at first, was of glory in battle; check his background, his father Maric was hailed as a great King because of his defeat of the Orlesians, which was not accomplished without Loghain. Cailan realizes this, and values Loghain's inputs, but doesn't take as much thought into it as he should have, which is somewhat of Cailan's nature; Anora mentions Alistair and Cailan are so much alike, that is was disturbing, yes?

I think then, this points to looking only a bit at Alistair's nature and character; it is simple, yet complex, and understaing it can be impossible. Fictional or not, they have personalities, natures, tendencies. Do well to remember that, to those who don't; don't take this as a shot or anything, either. I'm just saying to look deeper, and try to dwell within their mind. It is an enlightening experience, of sorts. Anyways, moving forward; his nature compels glory; Cailan, as I understand it, wants to be remembered as a King who defeated the Blight amongst the Grey Warden's. A fabled King, one to be remebered for ages. He wanted glory, fame..and to be like his Father, who's great deeds were accomplished in a land and war frent with everything one would wish not to be assaulted with. His nature compelled him to wish to be like his father; he is of Nobility, and thusly, heir to the throne. It also puts the politcs at a crazy level. He wanted to be remembered like his father was as a great King during troubled times. 

However, as I understand it, he was too ingrained with stories and legends that Loghain's statement rings..true. 'Your fascination with myths and legends will be your undoing; we must attend to reality.' The reality of the situation was grasped at his fingertips, but he didn't realize it until too late. That was his grave mistake, and his ultimate undoing.

Now then, the switch. Loghain's mind. Dwell within it, and think; think in his point of view, his thoughts, prejudices, ignorances, nuances. You do not have to dwell if you would prefer not to, but dwelling likens enlightenment, at least in my view. Now then. First, turn your attention to Cailan. And ask yourself,..what do you think of his notions? Worthy, yes, but judging by the past Orlesian occupation, such was not unlikely to happen again, if they were given aptitude to do so.

Should Loghain have listened and waited, perhaps the battle could've been won..but it would've taken a toll on Ferelden. A high toll. Perhaps one unable to recover one, perhaps not. If Ferelden forces were to stand at Ostagar, the bulk of the horde, as it was stated, isn't in the Korcari Wilds, nor were they at Ostagar. If I had to say, they were but a fraction. The Archdemon was gathering more. Urthimel wouldn't be foolish enough to waste all forces on Ostagar.

I'm not saying the Archdemon planned it. But I'm not saying the Archdemon is a fool, either. It -- He -- talks to the Horde. The Darkspawn are corrupt, hideous. Some intelligent. The one's we see now, aren't as intelligent. Back to my point, the Archdemon wouldn't have attacked, nor needed to, at Ostagar. Likely, the thoughts, besides being hell bent on destruction, were focused on long-term, not short-term. I'm not saying the Archdemon is a tactical genius, either. I am saying the Archdemon is smart. Cunning. Not elaborate, but clever still. The bulk of the horde..

Well. I imagine we didn't see the bulk. Duncan did. Cailan did. Back to my original thoughts, Loghain's strategy would likely have panned out as follows:

First, Cailan and the Wardens including Duncan would engage the Darkspawn in melee. At this stage, they're not that intelligent. They've a hive mind towards the Archdemon. Think of it sort of like the Geth, only the Hive Mind is shared only with the Archdemon, and think of the intelligent Darkspawn sort of like Legion. It may help, or it may not. They would have attacked blindly. Notice the fireballs hitting the bridge? We didn't see them, did we? No. And if you took a look, it was farther out than expected, as many have said. Likely, the horde stretched out into the Wilds and underground. Even if a win could be made on the field, the ultimate fate would have been defeat.

I base this on opinion and facts that have links relevant. Back to the strategy; as they engaged the darkspawn, Loghain's men would flank them. Sound tactic. Very sound, very reliable. The darkspawn could've been squished in time, but with too many casualties. Loghain may have saw the battlefield or only a portion of it. He waited because he believed the battle could be fought and won, originally...but that thought perished the moment the beacon was lit. He quit the field not because of some convulted, ideal that, oh yay, I get ot be King, and be a royal ass, and nor did he intentionally kill the Couslands or orchestrate it. What is Howe's business is Howe's. He states that simply and without any preconceptions about Howe.

He prepared for the battle, the variables that occur, and knew to have a contigency plan in case of emergencies; the King's death could have easily been many things. The Warden's stood with him, but how was he to know the Darkspawn were in the tower? He was right to suspect them; he had no idea of the tower, of any of it. Despite Alistair's claim, the battle was lost. Cailan, Duncan. They knew it far too late. Duncan's last thoughts could be anything..but my interpretation?

'...It is, as I feared...the beacon was lit..but...it was too late; Loghain retreated...So it has come to this; to save a country, to save Ferelden...'

Leave that up as it will; my point is, Loghain had a contigency plan, but one which was not deliberate to become King, or Regent. He set it up so Ferelden would be in a position to defend itself. And what state is Ferelden in when you leave Ostagar? A defensible state, albeit weakened due to civil war. Loghain may have betrayed the King..but Cailan was Maric's son. Maric was Loghain's best friend, and a key strategist. To see his friend's son die, would have been not just a shame, but a burden he would carry, and regret. But he put the needs of many more, to the needs of a few.

Tactically speaking..and practically speaking, that is sound. Which is why I...respect Loghain. He is not some quasi-hero, he is not whitewashed. He is both complex, and difficult to know. Loghain is Loghain, and what he has done, he did for Ferelden; truer words were never spoken. I am speaking of the conversations I have had with Loghain, as well as many others, and the conclusions I come up with, are my own.

The passages he knew about; yes. But he didn't know or anticipate Darkspawn would come up from them. He had no idea, no knowledge they would. Do not even think he was in league with the darkspawn; do not. It is out of his character, out of him. He does what he does for Ferelden. And anything that threatens Ferelden, he would fight and die, rather than cooperate with. This extends to both Orlais and the darkspawn. If he would not side with Orlais, neither would he the Darkspawn. Both threaten his homeland. Both. To side with one, is to side against Ferelden. He did not want, or have the secret desire to be King.

Facts are: Anora was a good Queen. And she would likely continue to be a good one in the months and years to come after the Blight. He was Regent out of necessity, not out of wanton desire. He believed being Regent would allow him to unite Ferelden easier, not tear it apart further. He planned for variables, contigencies. But nothing as grand as some would suggest as taking the Kingdom from Cailan. He could perhaps plan for the Warden's, because of the stated belief that the Wardens were in bed with Orlais to be left with little, but perhaps nothing prepared him for the truth. Perhaps he knew.

One...never knows what could become of things in the future, until history has passed. Sorrow, great is my pain, and my regret; but of the regret I have, none is for Ostagar. He had a feeling, or knew the scope was large, larger than any realized, and Cailan saw it, too..until it was too late. Duncan as well. The battle, was unwinnable. I will point out future arguments as needed, but for now, my mind is weakened, my body tired; likely, I will go to bed. But before I do, one last thing to ponder; the true threat of the darkspawn is hinted at with Flemeth.

'Tell them that this Blight's threat is greater than they realize. Either the threat is more or they realize less. Or perhaps the threat is nothing! Or perhaps they realize nothing!'

This lampshades a lot; it belies more wisdom than it implies. It isn't meant to speak of the Archdemon or the Darkspawn just at the last place, but all over...including the battle at Ostagar. This..is where I end my argument for now.

Edit: Some points may or may not be wrong; feel free to correct me as desired and/or needed. Please and thank you!

/Point end.

Argue it what you will, take it what you will. I'll return to all replies within the morn, or eve, depending on what time I awaken, and such. Tata~! Note that some are opinions, and obviously some are speculations, possibilities; do not take it out of that context. While there are facts riddled within, take them as you will but not out of context.

But before I go, a quote to add would be nice, I think, or an excerpt from my head.

''Darkest is the absence of light that shines,
the clouds blooming forth with thunderous roars,
the clouds open up, blocking out the rays of the sun,
where thou doust the tears of He and His Bride pours.

Blood mixed within, Their dark gazes stare, and doust look away,
for now, it is us who pay,
the Maker's gaze ablaze with sorrow and despair,
yet it is we who do not care.

For our gravest sins, and are worst desires,
we are all thieves, and liars,
all sinners in the eyes of the Maker,
our eternal life belonging to the soultaker.

For entering into the Golden City,
we are not longer a pity,
but a stain upon that beautiful place,
hit with the Makers cold, iron gaze.

Now, as we suffer, and pray,
do we all pay,
for now it is no longer us who judge He,
but He...who judge we.

Forever is our pain, and sorrow,
hoping and praying for tomorrow,
ours lives forfeit and ours sins, most dire,
for now, as we die, do we see his ire.

Blessed art thou who forgves us for our sins,
Blessed art thou who forgives our trespasses,
Blessed art thou who forgives our false desires,
Blessed art thou who forgives all,

..Blessed art thou, Maker...for we...do not compare.'

-Krytheos.

Modifié par Krytheos, 21 janvier 2010 - 09:22 .

[Allattar1]

Without knowing Loghains troop numbers, or Cailans, and without knowing Darkspawn numbers I cannot say for sure.



The Lure and hit from side/behind trap is a fairly solid plan though, especially if cavalry is involved. The force that gets lured into such a position quickly finds themselves surrounded and cut to pieces from front and back.

With the right numbers involved its an attack that would work.



Now on to a "If I was Cailan" remark.

If I was Cailan and my trusted commander said, you stand your forces there, then I charge in from the side. My first reply would be, we put your forces down there and mine charge in from the side . Cailan is fighting for glory, and is admittedly blinded by it, but you could easily persuade him that its more glorious being the one charging in.. But hey this is Cailan not the most gifted chocolate in the tactics box.



You could argue that Loghain could have positioned it so Cailans forces where the trap, and not the bait. However I find it telling that Loghain didnt do that. Loghain left his forces to one side, which gave Loghain the option to withdraw, if he though he could.



Loghain is clever, and I am sure that the whole point of being stationed where he was, was deliberate. If he thought that things where going well, he wouldn't have retreated as potentially he could be found at fault.

But as events unfolded, well trouble at the tower, delaying the lighting of the torch. It certainly gave Loghain an opportunity that he took. Does this imply that Loghain had certain things planned in advance. I bet he would have, hes an intelligent commander, I am certain he would have seen several paths to follow and several outcomes to take. I am also fairly certain was that one of those paths was to leave a foolish king in a hopeless battle, for the good of Fereldan. I am also fairly certain that Loghain would only do it iif he was certain that the line "it was a lost battle, I had to retreat" was one that would hold weight.



In other words, it would have been a close battle even if Loghain jioned.

[Sidreus]

I didn't read all the posts so maybe someone pointed it out but here's my 2 cents.



After fair share of runs thru Ostagar, I began to think not Loghain troops but more than 7 mages would make a huge impact on battle. All that clustered darkspawns are screaming for fireballs, billizards, tempests and infernos.



So in addition to Loghain's betrayal I also think chantry/Gregoir also responsible for King's fall. Also as an avid mage player I think my place would be battlefield not beside a simpleton who lights the torch.

[jsachun]

Simple.



Outcome=Ostagar was lost.



Causes

1. Ostagar is an average siege location. The reason why it was abandoned by Tevinter Imperium

2. Cailan's plan did not go as planed because of unexpected Darkspawns in the tower & Loghain abandoning the plan.

3. The warden was not fighting by the King's side & killing hordes of darkspawn.



Speculation.

Ostagar could have been won=yes.

Ostagar would have been lost even if Loghain.....=also yes.

[Lotion Soronarr]

You logic is that Loghian knew that the darkspawn numbers were huge an that there will be even more darkspawn coming? If the forces at Ostagar can't stop the vanguard, what good does retreating do?



IMHO, defending and KEEPING Ostagar was cruical. Loghain is a great tactican, but a terrible strategist.

By holding Ostagar - at whatever cost - you keep the darkspawn from pooring into settled territory. You keep villages from being burned, crops from being destroyed, whole bannorns from being overrun - and that directly translates to more funds and resources for defending Ferelden, for rebuilding the army.

By abandoning Ostagar, what do you get? Refugees, death and destruction. And refugees have to be fed. They have to be housed. Refugees, that only a few days ago, where generating income, creating resoruces (crops, items) are now a burden on Ferelden. With many villages destroyed, your own base for recruitment suffers.



From a strategic standpoint, even loosing the whole army at Ostagar is better for Ferelden than what actually happened with Loghains retreat.

[Allattar1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You logic is that Loghian knew that the darkspawn numbers were huge an that there will be even more darkspawn coming? If the forces at Ostagar can't stop the vanguard, what good does retreating do?

err..
Whos that too? becuase I am unsure.



Absolutely agree retreating means the Darkspawn horde moves forward, albeit it moves slowly for some reason.  I guess its not interested in fast conflict just a slow rolling mass.

Loghains retreat directly impacts on the populace of Fereldan. 
My reasoning though is based on the idea that Loghain is more than willing to break eggs for the good of Fereldan.  If it means a chance at removing a simpleton from the throne he will do, did it.  I still think that he judged the battle close, becuase he figured that if he retreated he could persuade the Arls that his retreat was necessary. 
Something that couldnt be done if the King, or a large portion of the kings troops could still survive.

Other things worry me as well. 
Loghain wanted his men to light the beacon.  Why his men in particular?, and why deny the Mages there chance to act.  Certainly his voice could have got the mages into the action, but he sided with the Chantries concerns.  Net result of Loghains plan would have been all Grey Wardens would be taking the field with the King.  Is this suggestive that the plan was in place for laying blame, with no one to deny his allegations?  Just Cailan disagreed with him .

To me it looked like Loghain had set various pieces in place, ready in case he thought he could get away with it, which he did. 
Certain he had planned for several eventualities, A clear victory over darkspawn, a tough battle vs darkspawn, a very close battle, and defeat vs darkspawn.
I feel that Loghain could retreat without much criticism from most situations unless the battle was evident it would be a clear victory vs darkspawn.

My opinion is its possible Ostagar could have been won, but not easily.  However its difficult to tell.  Anyway people tell little lies to themselves all the time.  We don't like being wrong.  It is very easy to try and justify an action by a little lie.  Like I had to retreat the battle was clearly lost, I would just have been wasting men...  A very easy lie to believe, especially if it makes you king.

Modifié par Allattar1, 21 janvier 2010 - 10:16 .

[darkshadow136]

Sure if Loghain joined the battle the king could have won. But then we would not have had a game with a story to play by, and no reason to want to kill Loghain. The plan that they had set was similar to real historic battles like the Battle at Thermopylae in ancient Greece, and others.

[MOTpoetryION]

It was all a lie,just like the cake. i went down when the battle began and nether the King or Duncan were down there,Ive got screen shot to prove it too. : P

[Sabriana]

PC and Duncan dialogue on lighting the beacon:

PC: "How much time do we have?"
Duncan: "You have less than an hour."

Surely no one could dispute that it took way more time for the PC and her troop to battle her way upstairs - a battle starting at the entrance to the tower's front grounds.

Alistair, later on: "We surely missed the signal."

Loghains "vehement" opposition on having GWs light the beacon:

Loghain (in a calm and normal voice): "You place too much trust into the Grey Wardens." And that's all he says.

Loghain's reactions to Uldred's words:

Uldred: "I assure you the tower is unecessary...[...]"

Revered Mother: "We will not trust the lives of our soldiers to the mages... [...]"

Loghain does not say anything, neither does anyone else.

Neither Loghain nor Cailan believe it's a true blight. Neither one could have imagined the horde being as large as it turned out to be, and the archdemon was nowhere in sight. It had ony been sensed by Duncan and GWs, and no one took them seriously.

Three battles have already been won, the king just assumes they'd win again. Look at Duncan's and Cailan's faces when they enter the battle-field. Duncan looks worried and it feels like he wants to reassure himself as well as the king that "the plan will work." Cailan looks extremely arrogant.

Several sources in game state that the Darkspawn horde is ever growing, despite the losses they took in the previous 3 battles.

Duncan is very concerned about the winability of the upcoming battle. He states that to my PC, but also states that he can't go against Cailan's wishes. Try the PC-option "because he's a fool". Good one, that.

As far as I can see, Loghain is very suspicious of the GWs right from the start. The delay in lighting the beacon could very well have played a major part in his decision to leave, and to blame the GWs for Cailan's death. In his mind, the GWs are all in cahoots with Orlais. He even calls my PC a 'foreigner' later on in the game.

Loghain's epic paranoia is only fed by Cailan's remark about Orlais' aid, and judging from Cailan's earlier dismissal of waiting for Redcliffe (because Eamon only wants in on the glory. Yeah.), that's meant to rile Loghain up. Cailan must have known that Orlais was a particular sore spot for Loghain, and Cailan was stupid to mention Orlais at all. Especially considering what comes to light in RtO.

Loghain makes many mistakes is judgment, and much of his logic is proven a fallacy later on, but he didn't know that then. He makes assumptions that are plain wrong, but again, he didn't know. He trusted his instincts, which have served him well  until then. And once it has all been set in motion, the avalanche can not be stopped by anyone.

Could the battle have been won? Perhaps, but the cost might have doomed Ferelden for certain.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...

PC and Duncan dialogue on lighting the beacon:

PC: "How much time do we have?"
Duncan: "You have less than an hour."

Surely no one could dispute that it took way more time for the PC and her troop to battle her way upstairs - a battle starting at the entrance to the tower's front grounds.

That wouldbe a rough estimate.
And it took me TEN MINUTES to reach the top of the tower.


EDIT:
David explicitly states that Loghain wanted to control the tower and who lights the beacon.

[Lovecraft22]

No they lost at Ostagar as a plot device. Logain turned against the King as a plot device. Their numbers even with Logain's would have been not sufficent because it was a plot device.

[jsachun]

Lovecraft22 wrote...

No they lost at Ostagar as a plot device. Logain turned against the King as a plot device. Their numbers even with Logain's would have been not sufficent because it was a plot device.

And Lovecraft 22 said the above because he/she is a dev device.

[eschilde]

@Maviarab

Sure, but sometimes winning an impossible battle is based on killing the other sides' will to fight through tricks or diplomacy, etc. You can't do that with the darkspawn.



@Lotion Soronnar

Sure, Ostagar was crucial, but Loghain would not have left if he didn't think he could no longer hold it. DG also says that holding the tower wasn't crucial to Loghain, just that it would have provided a convenient excuse for him to leave the battlefield.

[Sidney]

Sabriana wrote...

Loghain makes many mistakes is judgment, and much of his logic is proven a fallacy later on, but he didn't know that then. He makes assumptions that are plain wrong, but again, he didn't know. He trusted his instincts, which have served him well  until then. And once it has all been set in motion, the avalanche can not be stopped by anyone.

Could the battle have been won? Perhaps, but the cost might have doomed Ferelden for certain.

Loghain's motivation should have been to win the battle. At that point, there's no need for Orleasians and no need to call them in. Loghain's plan gives him notably, not Cailin, options depending upon how the battle looks like it it will go.

Loghain's instincts about pretty much everything other than the "real" Blight are correct. His view that the battle is unwinnable is confirmed by at least 2 observers in game who have no reason to back him up. His sense of Cailin's designs to work with the Orlesians are also pretty much confirmed - possibly even putting Anora aside.

RtO covers a lot of this ground and the answers it gives should paint Loghain in a more favorable light.

[Althernai]

Sabriana wrote...

Could the battle have been won? Perhaps, but the cost might have doomed Ferelden for certain.

What cost? I truly don't understand where you (and the person talking about "pyrrhic victories" above) are going with this. The outcome of the battle in the game is the worst one possible: the army gets slaughtered and the troops Loghain walks away with get embroiled in a civil war while the Blight spreads throughout Ferelden. Look at the map just before the Landsmeet -- by the time you're done gathering allies, the Blight covers half of Ferelden. You're not shown the effects after the celebration, but Ferelden is going to be recovering from this for years.

It is debatable whether Ostagar was winnable in the scenario where Loghain doesn't turn tail and flee, but if they did manage to win, that would have been an order of magnitude better than what actually happened.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eschilde wrote...

@Lotion Soronnar
Sure, Ostagar was crucial, but Loghain would not have left if he didn't think he could no longer hold it. DG also says that holding the tower wasn't crucial to Loghain, just that it would have provided a convenient excuse for him to leave the battlefield.

He should have tried to hold it anyway. His army was all that stands between the darkspawn and the Ferelden vilalges. It's his damn duty to protect the people even at the cost of his life.


But to end this post on a lighter note:
static.minitokyo.net/view/36/45/274786.jpg

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 janvier 2010 - 01:49 .

[eschilde]

@Lotion Soronnar
Indeed, that picture exactly.

@people above him
Okay guys, the idea I'm getting from your posts is, "Dammit, even if he would have lost he should have stayed anyway. For justice."
Whatever else Loghain is, his tactical judgment remains intact. If he thought he could have won, he would have charged.

David Gaider wrote...

dan107 wrote...
However, I'm still curious -- when exactly did Loghain make the decision to leave Cailan to die? I was always under the impression that Ostagar could've been won had Loghain charged when he was supposed to, but he just used it as an opportunity to get rid of Cailan. Is that not correct?

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.

Modifié par eschilde, 21 janvier 2010 - 02:02 .