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[Sylrien]

Well, after giving this considerable thought while I was daydreaming during a lecture on post-modernism in aesthetic critical theory...

The Dalish don't abide by the rules of the Circle of Magi. By this very notion, they would not abide by the magical conventions established by the circle. Granted that you can't create entirely new game mechanics for characters that you really only play for a small portion in the Dalish original (Keeper Apprentice Merrill), it makes sense to use the magical tree that is already established ingame.

So far, the closest thing that I can compare the magic the Dalish use to established schools in game is ironically, Blood Magic.
Now, I'm not saying the elves use Blood Magic as we know it, but that in the magic of the Elvhen there seems to be a strong physical component.

1. The Arcane Warrior: SPOILERS
To acquire the arcane warrior ability, you more or less kill an elven mage who had been stored in a 'LifeGem". This gem is red, and it is remarked that it is similar to a phylactery. By the 'dialogue' initiated with the resident of the gem, it is revealed that the soul left the body in order to escape some great evil. The storing of this essence and the practice of keeping phylacteries of the Mage Circle members soudns very much low a llow-intensity for of Blood Magic.

2. Zathrian and his bond with the Curse. Again, SPOILERS.
Zathrian's long life is connected with curse and Witherfang. Upon releasing the curse, he dies. Again we have the repeated motif of a magical, physical connection with something. I even think the Lady of hte Forest claims that he bound the deal, as it were, with his blood. Also, you need the heart of Witherfang- you need to kill Witherfang if you prefer, to end the curse upon the Dalish of Zathrian's clan. This sounds like a very primitive form of the Blood Magic we know ingame.

3. Dalish Origin "Curing"
What exactly did the Keeper do to keep the Darkspawn disease at bay for the Dalish Elf in their Origin? THe Darkspawn Taint has been connected to blood- Mabari swallowing the Blood and getting sick, the warning 'not to let their blood get on you', blood turning black as proof of infection, the Joining, etc. 

So what does this mean? 
Well, the Tevinter Imperium has based their whole culture, their rise to power, on Blood Magic.  Who did the ancient Elves are Arlathan interact with? Tevinter Mages. Hence, the Imperium probably learned of Arlathan's magical prowess, as one culture does when interacting with another and managed their own, if twisted form of Blood Magic. Now, this isn't to say that the Elves themselves couldn't be corrupted by their own use of magic- but it seems that perhaps they never really used it to the ends that the Blood Mages of the Tevinter Imperium did.

If the Imperium did learn the basics of a blood-based magic from the elves, what does this mean for the rest of them? Both elven ruins are questioned-whether they were in fact Tevinter or Elven in origin. I propose this: Again, the TI learned much from the Elves of Arlathan, including adapting their superior culture. This would also include architectural motifs, etc. So these ruins could infact be elven in nature- in fact, the lower ruins of the compound in "Nature of the Beast" must be elven in nature, given the elven shades, In Uthenerna codex, sarcophagi, etc.

I imagine that once the Imperium grew in power, they sought to concquer the people they learned so much from- think about the relationship between Ancient Rome (the obvious inspiration for the Imperium) and the Ancient Greeks. Most likely, the Imperium converted the big elven compound- used for the Sleepers, into a tomb for their own generals (The Juggernaut Armor Quest).

It's been assumed by the scholars within the game that these ruins must be Tevinter, but why would the Tevinter have a statue of Falon'Dim in their own building, if they did not revere those gods?

I've seen the argument that the Tevinter gods are in fact the Old Gods of Elven lore, but I can't seem to find that thread- I think Mr. Gaider vetoed that thought? Or suggested they wouldn't worship elven gods? However, the statue of the Guardian of the Dead- or pre-TI, the guide to the Elves in the Beyond is facing a mirror that may very well serve as a portal to the Fade. This could imply that at some point the Tevinter Imperium did revere the Elven gods - but as they turned on the Elves, so did they seek the Gods that were not elf-friendly. (And if these are in fact the Dragons sleeping beneath the earth, perhaps their influence led them to turn hostile to their former friends. The Elves at no point seem to revere the dragons, and we've seen via the Dragon Cultists of Andraste that there are instances of intelligent high dragons with the kind of power and skill and! malevolent blood magic! using humans to further their own ends).

If you want to get really nickpicky about it, you could even point out that the Keepers, with the exception of Zathrian, all wear the Archon Robes models, which fits in my mind better with the Elven Aesthetic rather than the Imperium.

So, TL:DR version:

Dalish Elves practice a form of (possibly benign) Blood Magic, and the Tevinter Imperium is really the Ancient Arlathan civilization with a lot more blood and flat ears. It's just been so long ago that the origins of the Imperium are lost to the past and well, elves are cool. Who doesn't want to be an elf? 

Also, see various questions I've posted in Re: Dark City thread about the nature of that mirror in the Dalish origin, and what it might mean.

Next in the series of things I shouldn't be thinking about during long lectures, Antivan Society and class differences: Why Oriana has no accent and Carlos/Ignacio/Zevran do.

[slimboiphatz]

very interesting.. very very interesting

[Emperor Iaius I]

Fascinating theory, but I'm not sure there is that close of a connection between the two. The Extras in the strategy guide do indicate that the humans of Tevinter learned their magic from the Arlathan elves, but I believe it was a couple hundred years until an archon discovered blood magic. By then the Imperium had already warred on the elves and had defeated them for quite some time. I don't have the guide handy, but I am moderately certain that there's an insurmountable time disconnect.



I imagine that once the Imperium grew in power, they sought to concquer the people they learned so much from- think about the relationship between Ancient Rome (the obvious inspiration for the Imperium) and the Ancient Greeks.


That's not as close an analogy as you might think. The Romans never set out to conquer Greece. They were actually allies of various Greek city states and leagues, and first intervened in their affairs because the Greeks desired help against the Macedonians who had ruled over them since the days of Philip II.



In fact, T. Quinctius Flamininus is the archetypal example of that: he was the Roman consul who drove Philip V out of Greece completely and freed the Greek city-states. I do mean freed: their liberation was not euphemistic, but rather, they became independant city-states. Afterwards, Eumenes II of Pergamon (another Successor Kingdom, across the Propontis from mainland Greece) asked the Senate for help against the Seleucid Empire, and Flaminius warred against the Seleucid king, Antiochus III, in order to prevent him from ever participating in Greek affairs after again.



Athens became a staunch Roman ally, as did the Achaean League, but the original Roman ally--the Aetolian League--sided with Antiochus after the war, and was turned into a subject state by the Senate because of its treachery. The various Greek city-states continued to war on each other and Macedon, continually entangling the Republic in its wars (because of alliances) and it got to the point that the Senate was so weary of constantly helping the Greeks in their endless wars that the entire peninsula was taken in as the province of Achaia, though some city states (such as Athens) were still allowed to be nominally independent.



In actuality, the Empire was organized more as a federation of city-states with local government than anything else. That's really a side point, but it needs to be emphasized that though the Imperium is based on the Roman Empire (which was still called a republic to its very end), their methods of conquest are vastly different. The Romans always preferred to invite a land's rulers into their political system and secure their cooperation. In exchange for the Romans propping up the local elites, they in turn supported the Empire.



Tevinter was very different. While we can draw some parallels between the Romans learning from the Greeks and the complete destruction of Corinth and the Tevinter debt to the elves and their eventual destruction of Arlathan, I would caution against making a direct parallel because one cannot understand one situation in light of the other. They are far too dissimilar.

[Sylrien]

Ah, thank you. I really meant the Greek/Roman analogy with the influence Greek culture exerted over the Romans. The borrowing of the religion, adaptation of various philosophical ideas...generally how they, more or less took on the various trappings of classical Greek Civilization with the Arlathan/Tevinter comparison.



I profess to know very little about the Romans military exploits when it comes to the nuts and bolts of acquiring their empire. I meant to use the term 'concquer' very loosely. I'm an art history major - I look at the pretty pictures and slides. ^^



I don't have the guide, and have very little information outside the game itself and the wiki, so any insight is always appreciated. Of course, what I speak of is in the far distant past of the game, so we may never get the whole story.

[EthanDirtch]

Ya know, I think this could be used as a reason why there isn't a Dalish Mage origin, that the only mage origin starts within the Circle. They're very likely holding this stuff in some hidden pocket in their jacket so that they can use it on us in a later game >_> pretty cool if you ask me!



From what little I could glean from the game, I'm guessing the magic of the Arlathan/Dalish elves aren't truly related to Blood Magic, I don't think. I think Blood Magic might have been one of the bigger reasons why the Elves lost so badly to Tevinter (aside from what I can only assume was a much larger human population compared to elves). Those are just my assumptions, though. Nicely written, btw

[Emperor Iaius I]

Sylrien: Ah, thank you. I really meant the Greek/Roman analogy with the influence Greek culture exerted over the Romans. The borrowing of the religion, adaptation of various philosophical ideas...generally how they, more or less took on the various trappings of classical Greek Civilization with the Arlathan/Tevinter comparison.


I had gathered, but I wanted to clarify just in case. I have a vested interest in repairing the reputation of the Romans after the damage undertaken throughout history from the Church, the fascists, and Hollywood. It's a curious dilemma: education no longer fixates on the classics like it used to, but the scholarship is a lot better and freed from biases. Ah well.



I'm an art history major - I look at the pretty pictures and slides. ^^


Very good. I have very fond memories of arguing with art history professors about Roman art, especially since I tend to be a snobby classicist who looks at late imperial and post-classical art as being a decline and they call it an evolution. It was enjoyable.



Do you have a particular concentration?



I don't have the guide, and have very little information outside the game itself and the wiki, so any insight is always appreciated. Of course, what I speak of is in the far distant past of the game, so we may never get the whole story.


I have a feeling that what happened in the distant past is resonating strongly in the present. After all, we get a lot of information about the past from codex entries and various dialogues. It's important enough to the elves, certainly.



If you like, I'll take a look at the guide again and see what I can find. I do know that the part of your theory about the Tevinters learning magic from the elves of Arlathan is true enough. I'll see if I can find more.



EthanDirtch:

From what little I could glean from the game, I'm guessing the magic of the Arlathan/Dalish elves aren't truly related to Blood Magic, I don't think. I think Blood Magic might have been one of the bigger reasons why the Elves lost so badly to Tevinter (aside from what I can only assume was a much larger human population compared to elves)


I just started the Dalish portion of the game again, and various characters there point out that blood magic was one of the significant reasons why the magistri were able to destroy Arlathan. So, on one hand, that means it's not terribly likely that they learned it from the elves (giving more credence to the old gods theory) but on the other, it does change the timeline as far as I posted above.



Of course, the Dalish could always be wrong. That's the interesting thing about this game's lore: it's not just a matter of who's telling the truth, but it's also a matter of whose information is correct. For all we know, Sylrien's theory could be spot on.

[Sylrien]

I actually don't have a concentration yet, I'm an undergrad. Though I am interested in persuing classical studies.



Besides, Late Imperial Art was in decline. They reused statuary from previous periods, it was in decline. Granted there's that whole arguement about the rise of Christian Symbolism...

Well, from my copy of Meditations to yours, Iaius. I'd be interested in any information that the guide might have.

[Brass_Buckles]

Okay, I'm gonna go out on a limb here...



If you question the Presence in the Brecilian Forest ruins much (the one who gives you Arcane Warrior abilities), it will tell you that humans originally built the ruins, but that the war fought there was not between humans and elves, but between humans, elves, and Something Horrible (a demon, maybe? A blight? We don't know.). If anything, this would seem to imply that the elves got ideas from humans, rather than human society being influenced by elves. Either that, or these were elves post-Andraste, having just been released from slavery and given the Dales as their homeland when whatever ruined the ruins happened. My personal suspicion is that this elf came from prior to the Tevinter Imperium, when human/elf relations were more peaceful, since it seems to imply a rather open relationship between humans and elves at the time.



Maybe I'm just reading too far into that dialogue, but I just played through that part again last night/today.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Yes, spoila. The whole Arch of Constantine is a monument to artistic theft. My professors have argued that it ought to be seen instead as a deliberate gesture and a sign that artistic priorities were changing, hence the flat and almost two-dimensional reliefs that constitute the only original parts of the arch. I think they're quite silly.



However, I commend you for wanting to pursue classical studies.



Let's see what I can find with a brief persual...



Time-line wise, it looks like Arlathan was founded in -6405 TE, with 1TE being the foundation of the Imperium (the elven calendar starts here, and their notation is FA). Three thousand years later we have the first human-elf contact (3000FA/-3405TE), and humans being exploring Thedas a further fifteen hundred years from there.



Elves and humans had hostile relations, and Tevinter started sorties against Arlathan on the foundation of the Imperium. The elves responded by retreating from human contact, and the Empire flourished. The first dreamers learned to enter the Fade with the help of lyrium thanks to elven captives, and they became the first magistri. It seems that the name of the first archon is Darinius.



By 620 CE, conflicts over the archon's throne lead to the widespread use of demon summoning, powered by human sacrifices. It seems that blood magic had already been discovered by this point.



The guide also goes through the gods. The elven gods seem clearly distinct from the human Old Gods, to the point of visual form (for instance, they have a wolf god). The domains of these Elven gods are different from those of the Old Gods.



There are codex entries of Elven history typed up, but I won't read them. I prefer discovering them in-game and reading them there. I hope you don't mind. I presume you can access them yourself, at any rate.



Ah-ha, here's something for you! I'll quote it--it's short enough that I'm sure nobody will mind.



"Regardless of the truth, legend maintains that even from their underground prisons, the Old Gods were able to whisper into the minds of men. The Archon Thalsian, first of the magisters who claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat, used the blood magic Dumat taught him to attain incredible power in Tevinter and declare himself the ruler of an empire. In return, he established the first temples worshipping the Old Gods, and the dragons became equated everywhere with Imperial power. Thalsian also created the magister ruling class that has existed to this day, his own pupils forming the noble houses that have ruled over Tevinter for millennia. Mages of the Imperial Chantry today claim it is more likely that blood magic was learned from the elves of Arlathan, but truly there is no direct evidence of either stance being true. "



Fascinating.



And that seems to be it. There's a disclaimer at the top of this entire section, however: "Of course, not everything you will read in these pages is true, in an absolute, historical sense. Much of the world’s history is shrouded from even the greatest scholars, and many of the facts you will learn below represent the best guesses of the finest minds of the Chantry and Circle of Magi. Still, you hold an accurate representation of the current trends in thought, philosophy, history and religion at the time of Dragon Age: Origins. "



Still--I think it might help shed some light on things. Your ideas may yet work out after all. I'm quite impressed you came up with the connection without that bit from the guide, actually!

[Lotion Soronarr]

I asked Davind a question recently about the Dalish and abominations. He said:



They do have them -- the Dalish don't avoid spirits like the Circle does, however, and that allows them to be better able to handle malevolent spirits when they appear. But it does happen. Magic is scary stuff, even to the Dalish.

[EthanDirtch]

psh, who believes the *Imperial* Chantry anymore? It's more likely that--since the fall of the Tevinter Imperium and the fact that they belong under the *general* outlines of the Chantry, they're passing the blame of Blood Magic to the relatively recently deposed-via-Exalted March elves of the Dales. Elves are--after all--still looked down on no matter what anyone says regarding their status (and Tevinter still has slaves). What better a scapegoat for the failings of the Imperium? "We came, we learned, we conquered, but then we saw the light" kinda thing.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I don't know. Who believes the Chantry, period, regardless of stripe? In my view, the magistri learned blood magic from the Old Gods and this was a fine and noble thing. Something so wonderful could never have come from those pitiful elves.

[Sylrien]

Come closer and say that again, shem.

[draxynnus]

Interesting topic...

Regarding the Imperial Chantry - I'd also take anything they say with a grain of salt, since the "conversion" of Tevinter seems to be basically the assumption of the trappings of Andrasteanity in order to avoid being wiped out in another Exalted March while continuing to do pretty much exactly what they were doing before (albeit in a much smaller territory). On the other hand, since the Imperium even seems to continue condoning the use of blood magic, it's possible that that piece of information is actually genuine rather than a scapegoating - although I'm sure Tevinter is happy to use it to drum up anti-elf sentiment nonetheless.

However, this still allows the possibility that while the original magisters learned the first steps of the path from Arlathen, the blood magic that we know today is a perversion of the original Arlathen tradition that the ancient elves knew to leave well enough alone.

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The guide also goes through the gods. The elven gods seem clearly distinct from the human Old Gods, to the point of visual form (for instance, they have a wolf god). The domains of these Elven gods are different from those of the Old Gods.

Actually... we may be comparing to the wrong set of gods. The Forgotten Ones were sealed in the Abyss by Fen'Harel. The Old Gods were sealed below ground by the Maker. Coincidence? Extending this theory, we could even raise the hypothesis that Fen'Harel is the Maker - or, rather, claimed to be after having banished the other gods.

Modifié par draxynnus, 25 janvier 2010 - 07:38 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Sylrien wrote...



Come closer and say that again, shem.

Ah, how I'd like to make some Zevran-like retort here. I'm afraid I don't have it in me, but we'll let that sentiment stand on its own.



draxynnus: Condoning blood magic? Are you certain? As far as I know, the Imperial Chantry has at least succeeded in banning blood magic and had even driven the magistri from political power for a time, though they have since taken control once more. I'd be very interested in any evidence suggesting they do still practice blood magic.



As far as the Forgotten Ones--fascinating. I know little enough about them. It would make a certain degree of sense for one god to have attempted to overthrow the others and created some sort of revisionist theology, though.

[Sylrien]

I really like this Maker as Fen'Harel piece. Suitable for the Lord of Tricksters.



You shems worship an elven god. Not even one of our *good* elf gods. Oh how this makes me chuckle.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Don't lump us all together, now.

[draxynnus]

It's in the Alienage quest - if you fight the Tevinter slaver and bring him close to defeat, he'll surrender and offer to perform a blood magic ritual on your behalf (at the expense of the captive elves).

It's possible that he's practising blood magic outside the auspices of the Imperial Chantry, but he also doesn't seem to be particularly afraid of being found out by his superiors. Thus, it seems that the Imperial Chantry might condone blood magic, although they wouldn't advertise it if they did.

EDIT: Okay, let's see where else this hypothesis can lead us. If Fen'Harel is the Maker, and the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones, what was the Golden City?

The logical conclusion, given the result of interference with the Golden City, is that the Golden City was (part of) the lock that Fen'Harel employed to lock away the Old Gods. If this is so, then the Old Tevinter magisters that "accidentally" corrupted the Golden City leading to the creation of the darkspawn may instead have succeeded in exactly what they sought out to do - if they'd discovered the nature of the City and were seeking to free their gods.

Under this paradigm, the Old Gods may not actually be being corrupted by the Blight to become archdemons, but might actually have been the source of the Blight all along, with transformation into the first Hurlock Emissaries the reward of these magisters for their service. If this is true, then the Blights might not actually be caused by the darkspawn finding (and "corrupting") an Old God, but by each Old God breaking free of their weakened prison in turn and drawing the darkspawn to it. Alternatively, it may be that each Old God needs the help of the darkspawn in order to break free even from their weakened bond.

A final piece of extrapolation: if the Archdemons are the Forgotten Ones having been released by the corruption of the Golden City, does this mean that it might also be possible to release the higher elven pantheon by a similar means? And would it necessarily be a good idea if it was possible?

Modifié par draxynnus, 25 janvier 2010 - 09:00 .

[football_punk64]

So I'm curious. Is blood magic truly bad and evil, or just that because of the chantry. Is Andraste really holy and everything the Chantry says her to be, or is it someone who looked around and didnt like what she saw so she did something about it. By using her wits and looks well and managed to overthrow the T.I. along by gathering many allies without a higher power. OR MAYBE she did something like in Mass Effect. She might have been a supposed OLD GOD herself, or pretended to be and made used darkspawn to her advantage.



I went a little off topic but I guess what I'm trying to say is that history is written by those who had victory. Just because the chantry says its so doesnt mean its actually so. Maybe there was a greater threat that the tevinter forsaw through their uses in the blood magic, and the best way they saw to get ready for it is to unite thedas under the Tevinter flag. But obviously now one would bow down to them like that so they conquered.



Anyways this is all wild speculations with no purpose or evidence behind it, So im expecting it to get disproved fast.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The first blight came almost two centuries after Andraste did. Andraste was almost certainly not an Old God, since she was human herself (born a slave of the Imperium, in fact). However, it is likely that she was just a hussy that seduced the "Maker" and that there's no divine substance to her at all.

[football_punk64]

I pretty much figured that, Im just procrastinating on my studies.

But The point was about history being made by victors.

Modifié par football_punk64, 25 janvier 2010 - 09:50 .

[draxynnus]

football_punk64 wrote...

So I'm curious. Is blood magic truly bad and evil, or just that because of the chantry. Is Andraste really holy and everything the Chantry says her to be, or is it someone who looked around and didnt like what she saw so she did something about it. By using her wits and looks well and managed to overthrow the T.I. along by gathering many allies without a higher power. OR MAYBE she did something like in Mass Effect. She might have been a supposed OLD GOD herself, or pretended to be and made used darkspawn to her advantage. 

Word of God is that blood magic (probably) isn't inherently evil, but the power it gives allows a great temptation to do evil. The "probably" is that DG is keeping his options open on this one.

Regarding Andraste - one of the books that you can give to Wynne posits a theory that Andraste was just a powerful mage herself. However, the fact that the ashes from the Urn of Andraste do have metaphysical properties does suggest that there's something behind her claims... even if the Maker may not be quite what he claims to be. 

[football_punk64]

draxynnus wrote...

football_punk64 wrote...

So I'm curious. Is blood magic truly bad and evil, or just that because of the chantry. Is Andraste really holy and everything the Chantry says her to be, or is it someone who looked around and didnt like what she saw so she did something about it. By using her wits and looks well and managed to overthrow the T.I. along by gathering many allies without a higher power. OR MAYBE she did something like in Mass Effect. She might have been a supposed OLD GOD herself, or pretended to be and made used darkspawn to her advantage. 

Word of God is that blood magic (probably) isn't inherently evil, but the power it gives allows a great temptation to do evil. The "probably" is that DG is keeping his options open on this one.

Regarding Andraste - one of the books that you can give to Wynne posits a theory that Andraste was just a powerful mage herself. However, the fact that the ashes from the Urn of Andraste do have metaphysical properties does suggest that there's something behind her claims... even if the Maker may not be quite what he claims to be. 

Ever heard of sugar pills?

[draxynnus]

Yes, but I'm pretty sure placebo doesn't work on people who are in a coma.

[football_punk64]

A baseball bat might... Wait thats is you want their money. Ummm I'm at a bit of a disadvantage for.... Ever heard of DEMONS and COINCIDENCE. Maybe it was random chance that he woke up then. Maybe you PC popped him a viagra to get the blood moving before trying the ashes becasue they weren't convinced ashes were gonna work. hahah