142 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Alistiar and Morrigan.

yea and people complain that morrigan is cold and manipulative and she eventually does leave the warden to continue fulfilling her agenda elsewhere. if anders manipulating hawke into rooting around sewers for bomb poop is unacceptable then how is her giving an ultimatum of 'warden spooge for my old god resurrection project, or i leave' not also unacceptable. because we dont' see the consequences immediately? people also complain that alistair is whiny and weak (and that only a specific warden permutation results in 'the happy ending') but how is his trauma more acceptable/"normal" than, say, fenris'. people complain and nothing is ever Right. its an individual preference.

i'm just observing that proximity to plot is generally a recipe for characters doin or being something people are gonna have an issue with. aside from the fact that the writers are predisposed to dysfunction anyway.

Well my issue with Anders/Fenris as romantic partners is their mental instablity really*granted with Fenris I guess it would only possibly be potentially dangerous to a Mage Hawke* Like I said I'm just not into dangerous relationships...hence why I only romanced Alistiar and Leliana.

leliana mentaly stable and safe relationship?

Considering she's not bat**** insane and/or doesn't have murderous inclinations towards you yes.

Well only if we compare her to anders or fenris but still i wouldn't compare her to alistair more to morrigan who is pretending nice girl well she wants also kill you if you destroy ashes skiping all this weird sh*** about her.  

Except neither Leliana or Morrigan are pretending to be nice,ignoring that Wynne does as well attacking you in a rage after you callously and needlessly destroyed the most sacred artifact of her religion does not equal harboring murderous inclinations towards you,What else is weird about her save the jar comment?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Alistiar and Morrigan.

yea and people complain that morrigan is cold and manipulative and she eventually does leave the warden to continue fulfilling her agenda elsewhere. if anders manipulating hawke into rooting around sewers for bomb poop is unacceptable then how is her giving an ultimatum of 'warden spooge for my old god resurrection project, or i leave' not also unacceptable. because we dont' see the consequences immediately? people also complain that alistair is whiny and weak (and that only a specific warden permutation results in 'the happy ending') but how is his trauma more acceptable/"normal" than, say, fenris'. people complain and nothing is ever Right. its an individual preference.

i'm just observing that proximity to plot is generally a recipe for characters doin or being something people are gonna have an issue with. aside from the fact that the writers are predisposed to dysfunction anyway.

Well my issue with Anders/Fenris as romantic partners is their mental instablity really*granted with Fenris I guess it would only possibly be potentially dangerous to a Mage Hawke* Like I said I'm just not into dangerous relationships...hence why I only romanced Alistiar and Leliana.

leliana mentaly stable and safe relationship?

Considering she's not bat**** insane and/or doesn't have murderous inclinations towards you yes.

Well only if we compare her to anders or fenris but still i wouldn't compare her to alistair more to morrigan who is pretending nice girl well she wants also kill you if you destroy ashes skiping all this weird sh*** about her.  

Except neither Leliana or Morrigan are pretending to be nice,ignoring that Wynne does as well attacking you in a rage after you callously and needlessly destroyed the most sacred artifact of her religion does not equal harboring murderous inclinations towards you,What else is weird about her save the jar comment?

I was talking about leliana who is like morrigan just pretends nice girl at first you think that leliana is good girl but more into romance and more you are sure that isn't in case.Well her bi*** how she likes kill others in conversation with warden , her party banter with zevran when she tell tells that she like hunt peoples down , her enjoyment when she manipulate others stated by her and marjolene , her vision her suspicious lies. I will add also that she always come back to the game she isn't person for long-term relationship more for "holiday adventure" like morrigan.

About wynne i don't think that wynne attacked you because she was religious because she isn't when she belives as she states she don't let her faith drive her life as well she don't often speaks about that like leliana my theory is that have something with her spirit of faith.

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 09 novembre 2013 - 09:24 .

[jillabender]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What does a 'normal' relationship look like?

as with demands for 'realism', it seems like generally whatever an individual person prefers is 'normal'

It's certainly true that a relationship between two completely "normal" and well-adjusted individuals in a story wouldn't actually come across as normal - in fact, it would probably come across as pretty bizarre, because real relationships don't work that way. When it comes down to it, everyone is really pretty weird in their own way, and even if someone appears "normal" at first, that illusion breaks down once you get to know the person intimately.

I agree with the idea that the question of whether a romance plot is too unrealistic, or too filled with angst and over-the-top conflict, largely comes down to individual preferences and perceptions.

That said, while I don't necessarily feel that the romances in DA2 were too filled with angst and over-the-top conflict as such, I found that the way the romances were presented affected the way I connected with that dramatic conflict.

I found that the conversations in DA2 played out less as though I was interacting with the characters in the moment, and more as though I was watching a conversation as related by someone else after the fact. This, of course, makes perfect sense, since the story is narrated by Varric, but I sometimes found it alienating.

I really enjoyed the moments when Varric's tendency to embellish and to relate events in an over-the-top way was played for laughs - like when he relates barging into his brother's mansion. But in moments like the romance scenes, the feeling that the scene was playing out as related by a narrator in an over-the-top way distanced me from what the characters were feeling in the moment, and made it harder for me to connect with what was true-to-life about the emotions involved.

That's not to say that feeling involved and invested in the characters' emotions on a gut level is always necessary in a story - just that the sense of disconnect that I sometimes felt with DA2 left me feeling a bit dissatisfied. I loved the characters, and I wanted to get inside their heads a bit more, but I sometimes felt that the story wouldn't quite let me in.

In short, I personally find it easier to connect with stories involving a lot of personal conflict and angst when the style of the story-telling involves a bit more "playing it straight," for lack of a better way of putting it.

But of course, that's just me, and I'm not necessarily making this observation to say "this style choice was flawed"- it's more a matter of "this style choice just didn't quite grab me."

Modifié par jillabender, 11 novembre 2013 - 04:36 .

[rapscallioness]

I would have loved a romance with Varric, or more importantly with someone with a personality like Varric. Someone that can kinda "bear witness" With you at the madness of the world around you both, and all the things going on.

Someone that makes it feel like you're in this together. Shoulder to shoulder. Where you plop down at the end of the day and say, "omg, can you believe this stuff?" and they shake their head and say, "no, I can't." Pints all around. lol! I would have liked that type of romance to be at least one of the options in DA2.

Honestly, one part of DA2 that really kinda scared me was when Varric got all weird with that red lyrium shard. It was shocking to see. I also thought I was gonna lose him there.

I think there's actually a better chance for the potential of good drama/conflict with a relatively "normal" LI in DAI. I think this mainly because of the choices that you're gonna have to make with which they may vehemently disagree.

I can see this type of thing causing conflicts with both LI's and friends. The world and your actions in it cause the drama instead of the LI being the walking embodiment of The Dramaz.

[Usergnome]

Plaintiff wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What does a 'normal' relationship look like?

Safe,healthy and stable?

See, this isn't any less vague. People have different ideas of what these qualities entail.

Does the relationship in Twilight meet this criteria for you? What about the relationship depicted in the film Secretary? Or the relationships depicted in countless romantic comedies?

Because in all those media products, those relationships are depicted as 'ideal' for the individuals involved.

Rule #1: Don't use MOVIES as an example of what actual relationships are like. Are you kidding me lol?

Also, I'm pretty sure Twilight's relationship wasn't ideal. I mean, Bella can't choose, Edward wants to eat her (in a bad way) and Jacob is all abby and tempting. Nothing there is stable, from what I gather.

Safe: You are not putting yourself in danger by being with this person. (Fenris is being hunted and they'll use you to get him, Anders too but also he makes you his accomplice with the chantry, Merrill is a blood mage and would also put you in danger. Oh, and ANders might explode into a demon if he has a bad day.)

Healthy: You're not constantly fighting and stressed out and unhappy with this person. Fenris. Nuff said.

Stable: No crazy dramatic events that might turn everything upside down. Oh, whats this? You turn into a demon? You have anger issues? You might become an abomination (twice.... dumb Merrill) and you're the reason the Qunari are attacking? Hmm.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

video games are also entertainment media, why must dragon age represent "actual" relationships but not movies

why does a fictional character with the burden of participating in or advancing a dramatic fantasy narrative have to meet the utmost standards of a real life romantic partner for what is, ultimately, optional content

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 10 novembre 2013 - 12:31 .

[Icy Magebane]

The problem I had with romances in both games is that there are very few options. 2 in DA:O, 2 in DA:2... depending on your personal preferences, those numbers can potentially double, but the fact remains that we wound up with extreme personalities in the majority of romances... so yeah, give us 2 unconventional LIs of each gender and 2 normal/boring ones of each gender. Or is that too much of a drain on resources? If it is, fine. I'll just play a forever alone Inquisitor same as Hawke.

[TK514]

I'd love to see BioWare write a romance interest with the feeling I got from Shandra Jerro (NWN2) or Fall-From-Grace (PS:T).

And yes, it is hard to define what I mean right now, so I recognize that it is worthless as actual feedback. You either know what I mean or you don't. I wouldn't really consider either 'normal', though Shandra was definitely more so than Fall, but I would consider them both more 'natural', and romantic.

[jillabender]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
1. Romance, if it's going to be included in a story, should have some element of drama in it.

2. Companions, if they're included, should serve a dramatic purpose. If they are all mild-mannered, well-adjusted types then they're bad characters. This doesn't mean that have to be outlandish - look at Persona 4 for a cast of characters who are (mostly) regular teenagers, yet still have very different personalities and problems.

cosigned and well put. I do agree with your 3rd point that if angst isn't your bag then DA2 may have failed to deliver on the male LI front.

Just wanted to add that I agree with this as well

There's definitely nothing wrong with simply finding a romance plot boring or unappealing because the character isn't the type of person you find interesting or attractive as a love interest (whether it's because brooding characters aren't your cup of tea or whatever).

Pseudocognition wrote...

why does a fictional character with the burden of participating in or advancing a dramatic fantasy narrative have to meet the utmost standards of a real life romantic partner for what is, ultimately, optional content

I also agree with this - I think it's important to keep in mind that while a romanceable character may not be the type of person you (or I) personally find romantically appealing, that is not in itself an indication of bad writing.

Modifié par jillabender, 11 novembre 2013 - 04:44 .

[Plaintiff]

Usergnome wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What does a 'normal' relationship look like?

Safe,healthy and stable?

See, this isn't any less vague. People have different ideas of what these qualities entail.

Does the relationship in Twilight meet this criteria for you? What about the relationship depicted in the film Secretary? Or the relationships depicted in countless romantic comedies?

Because in all those media products, those relationships are depicted as 'ideal' for the individuals involved.

Rule #1: Don't use MOVIES as an example of what actual relationships are like. Are you kidding me lol?

Why are we just accepting that movie relationships are 'unhealthy', but criticising videogames for the same problem?

Also, I'm pretty sure Twilight's relationship wasn't ideal. I mean, Bella can't choose, Edward wants to eat her (in a bad way) and Jacob is all abby and tempting. Nothing there is stable, from what I gather.

Safe: You are not putting yourself in danger by being with this person. (Fenris is being hunted and they'll use you to get him, Anders too but also he makes you his accomplice with the chantry, Merrill is a blood mage and would also put you in danger. Oh, and ANders might explode into a demon if he has a bad day.)

Isabela and all the DA:O relationships have aspects of their character that make it dangerous to be around them. In fact, so do most of the non-romanceable characters.

It's remarkably hypocritical to criticise the love-interest characters for making your character's life more dangerous. They willingly put themselves in danger by choosing to be with you. In fact, I'd say they have more cause to be pissed than you do.

Healthy: You're not constantly fighting and stressed out and unhappy with this person. Fenris. Nuff said.

You don't have to fight with Fenris, that was your choice.

Stable: No crazy dramatic events that might turn everything upside down. Oh, whats this? You turn into a demon? You have anger issues? You might become an abomination (twice.... dumb Merrill) and you're the reason the Qunari are attacking? Hmm.

What sort of backstory comes completely free of baggage?

"Crazy dramatic events that might turn everything upside down?" Those will happen even if your character stays single. In fact, that's pretty much how all plots work, all of the time. If you want to avoid those, then don't play games, watch films or read books.

Hell, real life is full of such events. You had better just not date anyone at all, because they might get cancer, or be in a car accident, or find out they're adopted, or get attacked on the street, or enlist in the army, or learn that a one-night stand five years ago resulted in a child that they've only just met, or that their manuscript has been accepted for publication and they need to go on a tour around the country to promote the upcoming book, or any one of a million, billion things that can totally change a person's life at any given moment.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 novembre 2013 - 01:42 .

[Hellion Rex]

@Plaintiff, good post.

[Nohvarr]

As Plaintiff appears to make clear a relationship with no conflict, no unexpected issues and no problems is not normal at all. At least I've never seen one.

[TK514]

True, but there is a difference between a life event and "all my choices were damaged to the point of absurdity before I ever met them", which is what DA 2 offers.

[jncicesp]

Realistic options would get boring to me after one play through, I doubt theyd make a character whos so plain they dont have any past or opinions on the things you do or dont do.

Anyone who agrees with everything and you get along perfectly and they never want to kill anyone just seems out of place in this world really

Modifié par jncicesp, 10 novembre 2013 - 04:20 .

[PMC65]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The problem I had with romances in both games is that there are very few options. 2 in DA:O, 2 in DA:2... depending on your personal preferences, those numbers can potentially double, but the fact remains that we wound up with extreme personalities in the majority of romances... so yeah, give us 2 unconventional LIs of each gender and 2 normal/boring ones of each gender. Or is that too much of a drain on resources? If it is, fine. I'll just play a forever alone Inquisitor same as Hawke.

Right there with you ... I would prefer a few sane choices along with the crazy and over the edge.

But if Bioware opts for more of the DAII same ... oh, well. My female Mage just spent her off time with her stable pals, Varric and Aveline. If I purchase DA:I then Varric will have yet another lonely bud to hang out with.

[KC_Prototype]

I think their should be a character for everybody and what I mean is that if she want's a "normal" relationship, let her have one. Me, I liked the Morrigan and Leliana relationships. DA2, I went for Isabella and it was a fun relationship because I made her soft. So, let her have a regular LI.

[Shadow Fox]

Plaintiff wrote...

Usergnome wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

What does a 'normal' relationship look like?

Safe,healthy and stable?

See, this isn't any less vague. People have different ideas of what these qualities entail.

Does the relationship in Twilight meet this criteria for you? What about the relationship depicted in the film Secretary? Or the relationships depicted in countless romantic comedies?

Because in all those media products, those relationships are depicted as 'ideal' for the individuals involved.

Rule #1: Don't use MOVIES as an example of what actual relationships are like. Are you kidding me lol?

Why are we just accepting that movie relationships are 'unhealthy', but criticising videogames for the same problem?

Also, I'm pretty sure Twilight's relationship wasn't ideal. I mean, Bella can't choose, Edward wants to eat her (in a bad way) and Jacob is all abby and tempting. Nothing there is stable, from what I gather.

Safe: You are not putting yourself in danger by being with this person. (Fenris is being hunted and they'll use you to get him, Anders too but also he makes you his accomplice with the chantry, Merrill is a blood mage and would also put you in danger. Oh, and ANders might explode into a demon if he has a bad day.)

Isabela and all the DA:O relationships have aspects of their character that make it dangerous to be around them. In fact, so do most of the non-romanceable characters.

It's remarkably hypocritical to criticise the love-interest characters for making your character's life more dangerous. They willingly put themselves in danger by choosing to be with you. In fact, I'd say they have more cause to be pissed than you do.

Healthy: You're not constantly fighting and stressed out and unhappy with this person. Fenris. Nuff said.

You don't have to fight with Fenris, that was your choice.

Stable: No crazy dramatic events that might turn everything upside down. Oh, whats this? You turn into a demon? You have anger issues? You might become an abomination (twice.... dumb Merrill) and you're the reason the Qunari are attacking? Hmm.

What sort of backstory comes completely free of baggage?

"Crazy dramatic events that might turn everything upside down?" Those will happen even if your character stays single. In fact, that's pretty much how all plots work, all of the time. If you want to avoid those, then don't play games, watch films or read books.

Hell, real life is full of such events. You had better just not date anyone at all, because they might get cancer, or be in a car accident, or find out they're adopted, or get attacked on the street, or enlist in the army, or learn that a one-night stand five years ago resulted in a child that they've only just met, or that their manuscript has been accepted for publication and they need to go on a tour around the country to promote the upcoming book, or any one of a million, billion things that can totally change a person's life at any given moment.

Risk of heartbreak is quite different then knowingly risking your life by being with an unstable partner who could kill you *Anders* just saying.

[Shadow Fox]

KC_Prototype wrote...

I think their should be a character for everybody and what I mean is that if she want's a "normal" relationship, let her have one. Me, I liked the Morrigan and Leliana relationships. DA2, I went for Isabella and it was a fun relationship because I made her soft. So, let her have a regular LI.

I just want 1 stable/sane option for both genders I just hope that's not too much to ask?


Also what I meant is:

Safe: neither you or your partner are a danger to each other.*Basically  neither you or partner have a high risk of harming the other*

Stable: Arguments and fighting aren't constant and volatile,a fairly balanced power dynamic between partners and both are fairly well adjusted psychologically.

Healthy: Neither partner is obessive,abusive,overly controlling or psychologically dependent of the other.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 12 novembre 2013 - 06:50 .