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[Lotion Soronarr]

The Xand wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

The people that want the maker as an antagonist are a bunch of misfits that project their personal issues on Dragon Age.

Or people who are dissatisfied at how jarring and out of place the Maker is in the Dragon Age world.

It's obviously some kind of primeval demon.

Jarring and out of place?
Really?

You entire "logic" (and I use the term loosely) is that X is boring (to you), thus it doesn't fit in the DA universe?
Since when is that any kind of criterion whatsoever?

What exactly does "Person X finds this interesting" have to do with "fitting in an fictional unvierse"?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:53 .

[TEWR]

Schneidend wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plot twist: Flemeth is Thedas' life essence in corporeal form.

Eh, I dunno. Warcraft already kind of did the "dragons are the aspects of the planet, and they can take human form" deal.

Well, I was just joking around, but DA seems to be going that route or something similar with the stuff the comics tell us.

How if the dragons die, Thedas dies. Or something.

[Lotion Soronarr]

F*** the dragons!

[HiroVoid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plot twist: Flemeth is Thedas' life essence in corporeal form.

Eh, I dunno. Warcraft already kind of did the "dragons are the aspects of the planet, and they can take human form" deal.

Well, I was just joking around, but DA seems to be going that route or something similar with the stuff the comics tell us.

How if the dragons die, Thedas dies. Or something.

So.....time to move to a new continent?

[Vulpe]

HiroVoid wrote...

So.....time to move to a new continent?

I think he's referring to the planet.

[Plaintiff]

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...
I haven't finished Skyrim, is Alduin basically the same thing?

Not really. Alduin isn't a 'god' in the setting, and he was always regarded as 'evil'. It's relatively common knowledge that his coming signals the end of the world; there's not any conspiracy to cover it up.

It'd be more like if one of the benevolent dieties, like Akatosh, turned out to be manipulating the masses because he needed their faith to power a magic cannon that would rend the fabric of reality and allow him to invade the void between realities, where he would enter the nexus of all creation and collapse the entire multiverse into a singularity so he could remake it in his vision.

Or something like that.

[KiwiQuiche]

I don't want him as an antagonist, I just want to be able to kill him; I love being able to murder Gods in games.

[Ieldra]

@OP:
I find this sentiment odd indeed. The Maker is a typical god. Some people believe in him, some don't, just like in real-world religions, and a final truth about him does not exist except in the minds of the believers. I believe the Maker should stay that way because it makes the setting as a whole easy to connect to. Settings where all gods are real are more alien, they can't carry religious themes the same way the existing setting can because there, "god" is synonym for "non-human super-mage with earth-shattering powers." Consider if the only "gods" there were on Thedas were the Old Gods. There would be those who accept them as gods, others who deny them deity-status, but they'd be nonetheless part of observable reality because they manifest as dragons. A familiar, but not altogether interesting setting because many conflicts about religion arise exactly from the fact that our gods aren't part of observable reality.

I do want the Chantry to be taken down a peg, but it appears DAI will do that already. For a deity which isn't part of observable reality, you can limit its virtual influence (they only ever have virtual influence) by decreasing the power of those who proclaim to speak for it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 novembre 2013 - 10:59 .

[dunstan1993]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
I find this sentiment odd indeed. The Maker is a typical god. Some people believe in him, some don't, just like in real-world religions, and a final truth about him does not exist except in the minds of the believers. I believe the Maker should stay that way because it makes the setting as a whole easy to connect to. Settings where all gods are real are more alien, they can't carry religious themes the same way the existing setting can because there, "god" is synonym for "non-human super-mage with earth-shattering powers." Consider if the only "gods" there were on Thedas were the Old Gods. There would be those who accept them as gods, others who deny them deity-status, but they'd be nonetheless part of observable reality because they manifest as dragons. A familiar, but not altogether interesting setting because many conflicts about religion arise exactly from the fact that our gods aren't part of observable reality.

I do want the Chantry to be taken down a peg, but it appears DAI will do that already. For a deity which isn't part of observable reality, you can limit its virtual influence (they only ever have virtual influence) by decreasing the power of those who proclaim to speak for it.

I like this post so much that I'm going to have children with it. 
Anyway, I guess I'd also like to see more tolerance of atheism in DA:I, perhaps more dialog for that viewpoint too?

[TurretSyndrome]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
I find this sentiment odd indeed.

It is not odd for wanting a certain story to head in a direction one wishes to, this is after all, a fiction. Whether you believe "God" should stay unreachable regardless of it being in fiction, or in reality, is irrelevent. 

[Ieldra]

TurretSyndrome wrote...
Response to topic: Don't see the reason why we shouldn't. It would definitely end the franchise with a bang, if done right.

The way I see it right now, it's Chantry: 1, Mages: 0, since it's proven that the Magisters of old did enter the Black City and got corrupted. I'd like to see something happen to the Chantry now, a hint revealed, like the Maker himself is corrupted, and that it was never a Golden City.

I want something to happen to the Chantry as well, but I want to leave the Maker himself out of it. That would change how the setting feels too much. My preference would indeed be the revelation that the Black City was always black, that someone made it appear Golden to lure people like the magisters there, and that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Maker. Oh, and I want it to become known that the Old Gods aren't evil.

The reason I said I find it odd to want the Maker as an antagonist is that you can't underestimate how much different the whole setting feels after making a god real who was (not just factually, but conceptually) as unobservable as the gods of our world's dominant religions until then, and making him personally defeatable on top of it. The setting would lose part of its identity.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 novembre 2013 - 12:44 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

If the Old Gods were never sinister, that wouldn't change the feel of DA in a major way?

[Lotion Soronarr]

I personally want the opposite.

For the Chantry to become even more powerfull, spread to everywhere, force Tevinter and Qunari to surrender and collar every mage ever. And then eternal bliss and happines shines over the lands as the Maker returns!


Well, no, not really.

[Afro_Explosion]

Ieldra2 wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...
Response to topic: Don't see the reason why we shouldn't. It would definitely end the franchise with a bang, if done right.

The way I see it right now, it's Chantry: 1, Mages: 0, since it's proven that the Magisters of old did enter the Black City and got corrupted. I'd like to see something happen to the Chantry now, a hint revealed, like the Maker himself is corrupted, and that it was never a Golden City.

I want something to happen to the Chantry as well, but I want to leave the Maker himself out of it. That would change how the setting feels too much. My preference would indeed be the revelation that the Black City was always black, that someone made it appear Golden to lure people like the magisters there, and that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Maker. Oh, and I want it to become known that the Old Gods aren't evil.

The reason I said I find it odd to want the Maker as an antagonist is that you can't underestimate how much different the whole setting feels after making a god real who was (not just factually, but conceptually) as unobservable as the gods of our world's dominant religions until then, and making him personally defeatable on top of it. The setting would lose part of its identity.

So Dumat invited Corypheus and the magisters for tea and cakes

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
If the Old Gods were never sinister, that wouldn't change the feel of DA in a major way?

Sinister <> Evil

They may be inscrutable and evoke peoples' suspicions, but that's rather different from evil. I'd like them to feel alien. Yes, making them good would change the setting too much as well. I think they should be entities who only tangentially relate to human (or elven, dwarven etc.) life on Thedas.

@mx_keep:
Since the Old Gods suffered from the Blight themselves, I'd rather think what happened was an accident, if they were indeed behind it all.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 novembre 2013 - 01:20 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

They already are alien. The Old Gods can hardly be qualified as evil, in its objective form, since we have had no exposure to them. But they were certainly sinister.

[The Xand]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

The people that want the maker as an antagonist are a bunch of misfits that project their personal issues on Dragon Age.

Or people who are dissatisfied at how jarring and out of place the Maker is in the Dragon Age world.

It's obviously some kind of primeval demon.

Jarring and out of place?
Really?

You entire "logic" (and I use the term loosely) is that X is boring (to you), thus it doesn't fit in the DA universe?
Since when is that any kind of criterion whatsoever?

What exactly does "Person X finds this interesting" have to do with "fitting in an fictional unvierse"?

Because a distant and aloof character that you don't ever see and doesn't ever do anything is such a stunning personality. We should give the Maker and Oscar.

[Ieldra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
They already are alien. The Old Gods can hardly be qualified as evil, in its objective form, since we have had no exposure to them. But they were certainly sinister.

All right, maybe I should've said I don't want them to be revealed as evil, and I want it to appear plausible to be interested in them without appearing completely insane (or becoming insane, at that).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 novembre 2013 - 01:23 .

[Afro_Explosion]

Ieldra2 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
They already are alien. The Old Gods can hardly be qualified as evil, in its objective form, since we have had no exposure to them. But they were certainly sinister.

All right, maybe I should've said I don't want them to be revealed as evil, and I want it to appear plausible to be interested in them without appearing completely insane (or becoming insane, at that).

The old gods must've been pretty pragmatic gods with the whole blood magic and sacrifices

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Xand wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

The people that want the maker as an antagonist are a bunch of misfits that project their personal issues on Dragon Age.

Or people who are dissatisfied at how jarring and out of place the Maker is in the Dragon Age world.

It's obviously some kind of primeval demon.

Jarring and out of place?
Really?

You entire "logic" (and I use the term loosely) is that X is boring (to you), thus it doesn't fit in the DA universe?
Since when is that any kind of criterion whatsoever?

What exactly does "Person X finds this interesting" have to do with "fitting in an fictional unvierse"?

Because a distant and aloof character that you don't ever see and doesn't ever do anything is such a stunning personality. We should give the Maker and Oscar.

The Maker isn't acharacter. He is an idea within the game world. His influence is never felt, and he never says or does anything, thus he can't be acharacter, and shouldn't be treated as such.

[The Xand]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

The people that want the maker as an antagonist are a bunch of misfits that project their personal issues on Dragon Age.

Or people who are dissatisfied at how jarring and out of place the Maker is in the Dragon Age world.

It's obviously some kind of primeval demon.

Jarring and out of place?
Really?

You entire "logic" (and I use the term loosely) is that X is boring (to you), thus it doesn't fit in the DA universe?
Since when is that any kind of criterion whatsoever?

What exactly does "Person X finds this interesting" have to do with "fitting in an fictional unvierse"?

Because a distant and aloof character that you don't ever see and doesn't ever do anything is such a stunning personality. We should give the Maker and Oscar.

The Maker isn't acharacter. He is an idea within the game world. His influence is never felt, and he never says or does anything, thus he can't be acharacter, and shouldn't be treated as such.

Except he is a character and is specifically mentioned as such, even fannying around with Andraste at one point.

Got some pretty dark revelations about him to look forward to yet.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Xand wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

The people that want the maker as an antagonist are a bunch of misfits that project their personal issues on Dragon Age.

Or people who are dissatisfied at how jarring and out of place the Maker is in the Dragon Age world.

It's obviously some kind of primeval demon.

Jarring and out of place?
Really?

You entire "logic" (and I use the term loosely) is that X is boring (to you), thus it doesn't fit in the DA universe?
Since when is that any kind of criterion whatsoever?

What exactly does "Person X finds this interesting" have to do with "fitting in an fictional unvierse"?

Because a distant and aloof character that you don't ever see and doesn't ever do anything is such a stunning personality. We should give the Maker and Oscar.

The Maker isn't acharacter. He is an idea within the game world. His influence is never felt, and he never says or does anything, thus he can't be acharacter, and shouldn't be treated as such.

Except he is a character and is specifically mentioned as such, even fannying around with Andraste at one point.

Got some pretty dark revelations about him to look forward to yet.

You got a religious text claiming him as a reality. That does not prove his existance. The Maker MAY be real, but as he stands now he is only an idea, since his actual existance cannot be proven.

[Nerevar-as]

The Xand wrote...

Except he is a character and is specifically mentioned as such, even fannying around with Andraste at one point.

Got some pretty dark revelations about him to look forward to yet.

When you tell people the world was created by an all-powerful being and said world is as it is, then it´s all because the god chose it to be like that. So it´s an evil SOB to say the least.

[TurretSyndrome]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The reason I said I find it odd to want the Maker as an antagonist is that you can't underestimate how much different the whole setting feels after making a god real who was (not just factually, but conceptually) as unobservable as the gods of our world's dominant religions until then, and making him personally defeatable on top of it. The setting would lose part of its identity.

To be honest, the setting will not feel much different. Your outlook on the world would change, but that's it. A good example would be Andraste's ashes. It proved that Andraste did indeed exist, so now there's a new outlook on the world. I know it does not carry the amount of weight as slaying the Maker, but all I'm saying is that the setting would not collapse because of it. It was after all, not built around Him, He's as much a part of the setting as everyone else.

Having said that, I do respect your preference. If such a thing does come to pass however, you can still believe in a " One true Maker", resolidifying your faith by saying that the one who resided in the now Black City, was a false one(or not worthy of the title, or anything else, take your pick), as opposed to completely losing interest in the setting.

I'm sure quite a few NPCs that I know of would say the same thing. Such a thing won't be a surprise to me, as in both real life and in Dragon Age, the pious always conclude such matters with the word "faith". Not being judgemental or anything, but just an observation I've made in numerous similar situations, both in game and out.

[The Xand]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You got a religious text claiming him as a reality. That does not prove his existance. The Maker MAY be real, but as he stands now he is only an idea, since his actual existance cannot be proven.

We have to assume that there's some kernel of truth to that religious text and that it exists to some extent because it's from a fictional game full of intentional design. Likely it's a demon. Or some kind of a gun. Called Chekhov.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 02:34 .