455 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

That is exactly what they aren't doing....

[Lotion Soronarr]

What is telling is your seeming obsession over this...

[9TailsFox]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Xand wrote...
Like how the Blight was a background element? The Maker and it's mystery is rammed down our throats at every turn we make, so it's very, very obvious foreshadowing. A prime case of Chekhov's gun.

Nope.
Maybe you should check your terms.

How many hunders or books had mysteries or "plot points" that never went anywhere and there weren't twists? How many settings have an absent god that you never confront?

No Xand, there is nothing "obvious".
Quite the opposite, since we already know from DG that you will never fight the Maker or be given a clear answer on his existence.

Well if they've already done it it's likely they'll do it again, no? Big twist; the Maker was a Dreamer, and human. Or a demon. Or just some powerful spirit. Or never even existed and the Black City is man made. Any of those theories are better than how things stand now.

Your oppinion. Other people disagree.

I agree with you and I think Mike Laidlaw  to. Basically start 2 min.

Modifié par 9TailsFox, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:09 .

[The Xand]

Han Shot First wrote...

I'm not sure that argument would stand up to scrutiny. After all if a person is truly devout, would they care if a fictional god was proven to be false within that fictional universe? No one is going to see the Maker as Jesus or Yahweh or Allah or Buddha or Zoroaster, and all of the monotheistic faiths have rules against worshipping other gods. If the Maker wasn't part of a work of fiction but the object of worship for a historical cult, it would be seen as a 'false god' to those people.

Jesus is Andraste, with a bit of Joan of Arc thrown in. It's ashes are now the Holy Grail.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What is telling is your seeming obsession over this...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That is exactly what they aren't doing....

You two look and sound nearly identical.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:08 .

[The Xand]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Xand wrote...
Like how the Blight was a background element? The Maker and it's mystery is rammed down our throats at every turn we make, so it's very, very obvious foreshadowing. A prime case of Chekhov's gun.

Nope.
Maybe you should check your terms.

How many hunders or books had mysteries or "plot points" that never went anywhere and there weren't twists? How many settings have an absent god that you never confront?

No Xand, there is nothing "obvious".
Quite the opposite, since we already know from DG that you will never fight the Maker or be given a clear answer on his existence.

It's exceedingly obvious and is the very definition of foreshadowing.

As it stands, not explaining the Maker's connection to the Blight, the Old Gods and the Black City would be like leaving Sauron undefeated at the end of Lord of the Rings.

Which I'm sure you'd actually be quite happy at because it would leave Sauron's mystery intact and his divinity in question.

Lotion Soronnar wrote..

Your oppinion. Other people disagree.

Mainly the religious because they dislike upsetting the status quo when it comes to gods.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm not particularly religious, and I am arguing purely from a story point of view. I don't have anyhting against gods being depicted as real entities in fiction. I take issue when you try to pass it off as if DA has been building up to it the entire time, when we have it from the creator that this is not the case. You own infatuation with being a "god killer" is what I take issue with, because you desire to push it on DA, when the setting doesn't need, and most people obviously doesnt want, it anywhere near the story.

[The Hierophant]

The Xand wrote...

Jesus is Andraste, with a bit of Joan of Arc thrown in. It's ashes are now the Holy Grail.

 I see no point in emphasizing Jesus when Andraste's comparisons to him are superficial, forced, or incompatible. 

[The Xand]

The Hierophant wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Jesus is Andraste, with a bit of Joan of Arc thrown in. It's ashes are now the Holy Grail.

 I see no point in emphasizing Jesus when Andraste's comparisons to him are superficial, forced, or incompatible. 

So superficial, forced and incompatible that David Gaider himself claimed that was what they based her on.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm not particularly religious,
and I am arguing purely from a story point of view. I don't have
anyhting against gods being depicted as real entities in fiction. I take
issue when you try to pass it off as if DA has been building up to it
the entire time, when we have it from the creator that this is not the
case. You own infatuation with being a "god killer" is what I take issue
with, because you desire to push it on DA, when the setting doesn't
need, and most people obviously doesnt want, it anywhere near the
story.

I don't care if there is a real Maker, an imposter or absent god. They need to explain the connection between the Maker the Chantry worships, and the Blight, Old Gods and Tevinter. That's what they've been building up to and it's the final piece in the puzzle. See foreshadowing and Chekhov's gun again.

I'm going to throw this example out again, but not explaining that connection would be like not killing Sauron at the end of Lord of the Rings.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:27 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Xand wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Jesus is Andraste, with a bit of Joan of Arc thrown in. It's ashes are now the Holy Grail.

 I see no point in emphasizing Jesus when Andraste's comparisons to him are superficial, forced, or incompatible. 

So superficial, forced and incompatible that David Gaider himself claimed that was what they based her on.

Where the writer gets his inspirtaion does not mean the stories are the same.

The Xand wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm not particularly religious,
and I am arguing purely from a story point of view. I don't have
anyhting against gods being depicted as real entities in fiction. I take
issue when you try to pass it off as if DA has been building up to it
the entire time, when we have it from the creator that this is not the
case. You own infatuation with being a "god killer" is what I take issue
with, because you desire to push it on DA, when the setting doesn't
need, and most people obviously doesnt want, it anywhere near the
story.

I don't care if there is a real Maker, an imposter or absent god. They need to explain the connection between the Maker the Chantry worships, and the Blight, Old Gods and Tevinter. That's what they've been building up to and it's the final piece in the puzzle. See foreshadowing and Chekhov's gun again.

I'm going to throw this example out again, but not explaining that connection would be like not killing Sauron at the end of Lord of the Rings.

No they don't need to explain this connection at all, since it isn't even certain that there is a connection in the first place. It is purposefully left ambigious so that there will never be an "ultimate truth".

[9TailsFox]

The Xand wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Jesus is Andraste, with a bit of Joan of Arc thrown in. It's ashes are now the Holy Grail.

 I see no point in emphasizing Jesus when Andraste's comparisons to him are superficial, forced, or incompatible. 

So superficial, forced and incompatible that David Gaider himself claimed that was what they based her on.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm not particularly religious,
and I am arguing purely from a story point of view. I don't have
anyhting against gods being depicted as real entities in fiction. I take
issue when you try to pass it off as if DA has been building up to it
the entire time, when we have it from the creator that this is not the
case. You own infatuation with being a "god killer" is what I take issue
with, because you desire to push it on DA, when the setting doesn't
need, and most people obviously doesnt want, it anywhere near the
story.

I don't care if there is a real Maker, an imposter or absent god. They need to explain the connection between the Maker the Chantry worships, and the Blight, Old Gods and Tevinter. That's what they've been building up to and it's the final piece in the puzzle. See foreshadowing and Chekhov's gun again.

I'm going to throw this example out again, but not explaining that connection would be like not killing Sauron at the end of Lord of the Rings.

How about plot twist black city is just place which contains magical disease bligh and nothing more. Mind blown yes?

[The Xand]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Where the writer gets his inspirtaion does not mean the stories are the same.

No, but it certainly goes far above and beyond "superficial" and "forced".

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No they don't need to explain this connection at all, since it isn't even certain that there is a connection in the first place. It is purposefully left ambigious so that there will never be an "ultimate truth".

Except there will be ultimate truths about the Black City, and the role of the Maker in it because Chekhov's gun and foreshadowing.

9TailsFox wrote...

How about plot twist black city is just place which contains magical disease bligh and nothing more. Mind blown yes?

That might work for those without wit or logic, but I want to know how the Black City came to be and why there's a magical corrupting disease there and where the damn Maker is since it's his own throne and city and *what* that Maker is.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:36 .

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

I don't care if there is a real Maker, an imposter or absent god. They need to explain the connection between the Maker 
I'm going to throw this example out again, but not explaining that connection would be like not killing Sauron at the end of Lord of the Rings.

Not really, not explaining it would be more like not killing Melkor in LotR.  Oh wait...

Don't conflate the plot with the mythology of the setting.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:43 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Xand wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No they don't need to explain this connection at all, since it isn't even certain that there is a connection in the first place. It is purposefully left ambigious so that there will never be an "ultimate truth".

Except there will be ultimate truths about the Black City, and the role of the Maker in it because Chekhov's gun and foreshadowing.

Okay, you need to understand that Chekhov's Gun is not a universal rule, and that it is aimed at stage play, and not interactive media at all. Chekhov's Gun has a good principle, but it holds little meaning on settings as huge as interactive media, books and even some movies present. Simply put, you need to understand that it is not a rule that has to be followed, and even shouldn't be followed.

The Xand wrote...

9TailsFox wrote...

How about plot twist black city is just place which contains magical disease bligh and nothing more. Mind blown yes?

That might work for those without wit or logic, but I want to know how the Black City came to be and why there's a magical corrupting disease there and where the damn Maker is since it's his own throne and city and *what* that Maker is.

And how do you know the Maker even exist? We don't. Perhaps it is simply a story, and the Maker never made his home in the Golden City. That is the entire point of the Maker, he is a mystery. If you resolve it, you lessen it. And by doing that you lessen the entirety of the DA setting.

[The Xand]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

I don't care if there is a real Maker, an imposter or absent god. They need to explain the connection between the Maker 
I'm going to throw this example out again, but not explaining that connection would be like not killing Sauron at the end of Lord of the Rings.

Not really, not explaining it would be more like not killing Melkor in LotR.  Oh wait...

Yes, the Black City and the Maker do bear some resemblance to Melkor and the Void that  he was cast into. The Maker probably is just some evil spirit.

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

I don't care if there is a real Maker, an imposter or absent god. They need to explain the connection between the Maker 
I'm
going to throw this example out again, but not explaining that
connection would be like not killing Sauron at the end of Lord of the
Rings.

Not really, not explaining it would be more like not killing Melkor in LotR.  Oh wait...

Don't conflate the plot with the mythology of the setting.

Because the Blight wasn't a part of the plot *and* the mythology, right?

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:46 .

[The Xand]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Okay, you need to understand that Chekhov's Gun is not a universal rule, and that it is aimed at stage play, and not interactive media at all. Chekhov's Gun has a good principle, but it holds little meaning on settings as huge as interactive media, books and even some movies present. Simply put, you need to understand that it is not a rule that has to be followed, and even shouldn't be followed.

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And how do you know the Maker even exist? We don't. Perhaps it is simply a story, and the Maker never made his home in the Golden City. That is the entire point of the Maker, he is a mystery. If you resolve it, you lessen it. And by doing that you lessen the entirety of the DA setting.

I don't care if it does or doesn't tbh, but the Chantry claims that it's linked to the Blights and the Old Gods and that mystery needs to be adequately resolved, otherwise it lessens the world of Thedas by merit of lack of closure. You don't end mysteries halfway through.

[BackdoorPaco]

I think the maker should continue as it is, just a god that some people following the chantry's teachings follow, and others don't. It's just a figurehead of the chantry's religious teachings until we're told otherwise.

The Xand wrote...

That might work for those without wit or logic, but I want to know how the Black City came to be and why there's a magical corrupting disease there and where the damn Maker is since it's his own throne and city and *what* that Maker is.

You may want to limit the amount of elitism in your posts. It can, and eventually will, offend people.

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

Yes, the Black City and the Maker do bear some resemblance to Melkor and the Void that  he was cast into. The Maker probably is just some evil spirit.

You seem to be missing the point...

The Xand wrote...

Because the Blight wasn't a part of the plot *and* the mythology, right?

The Blight, yes.  The Maker, no.  The Blight could be likened to Sauron's armies, with the Archdemon as Sauron himself.  The Maker has no role in the plot as Melkor had no role in the plot of LotR.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:51 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You're really making some huge assumptions about what the purpose of the Dragon Age story or the themes of the setting are. The Maker's purpose is not to be found out and defeated. His purpose is exactly what it is now, to be part of the religion of the Chantry. The Maker is not the equivalent is Sauron.He's not the central mystery or antagonist of the series. The ambiguity in the story regarding the Maker and the other gods is a feature of Dragon Age, not a problem intended to be solved.

[The Hierophant]

The Xand wrote...

So superficial, forced and incompatible that David Gaider himself claimed that was what they based her on.

Show me where in the NT or KJ edition Bible that Jesus instigated open warfare and violence against the Roman Empire.

Outside of their deaths leading to the creation of a religion that's suppossedly based on their teachings by a government that opposed them (superficial) i fail to see how Andraste is Jesus with a bit of JoA especially when Andraste's modus operandi is antithesis to Jesus' beliefs.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:55 .

[Reznore57]

Andraste is more like what if Joan of Arc was seen as the Prophet.And not Jesus.
.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Xand wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

The Xand wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Xand wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You got a religious text claiming him as a reality. That does not prove his existance. The Maker MAY be real, but as he stands now he is only an idea, since his actual existance cannot be proven.

We have to assume that there's some kernel of truth to that religious text and that it exists to some extent because it's from a fictional game full of intentional design. Likely it's a demon. Or some kind of a gun. Called Chekhov.

And WHY do we have to assume that? I don't ahve to assume any such thing about the bible either. I can see it all as allegory, and that it is just stories meant to guide the morality of Man. I don't have to assume that there is any actual truth to it.

Because the Bible isn't central to the plot of a fictional narrative?

The Maker is already the primary antagonist of Dragon Age since he directly and physically created the Blights.

Central to the plot? Oh please,  it's little more then a backstory footnote. That's like trying to claim those elf mirrors are central to the plot because it was in two games. Or the struggle of the dusters.

It's there to add another element to the story, nothing else. And primary antagonist?  Does your stupid self promotion of your evidenceless pet theory know no bounds?

I'm just going to leave this here.

The whole plot of Dragon Age: Origins revolves around stemming the Blight, and the Blight was caused by...the Maker. That's one of the central themes of Dragon Age yo.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


So you linked to the
Iintro that focuse little to nothing on the maker and more on the
darkspawn. Along with how in game evidence brigns Into question the role
of the maker or possibly any deity in turning the magisters into
darkspawn in the legacy dlc.

Areligious people have this funny tendency of wanting to know where things came from instead of just stopping at "god created it" and then asking no more questions.

Funny you should mention the Legacy DLC because that also proves my point. There's a larger mystery at work and all is not what it seems. You'll see.

You really have no clue how to argue against people without assuming they're religious. It's so adorable. 

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Double post.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:58 .

[The Xand]

BackdoorPaco wrote...

I think the maker should continue as it is, just a god that some people following the chantry's teachings follow, and others don't. It's just a figurehead of the chantry's religious teachings until we're told otherwise.

The Chantry's already tumbling down, now would be a perfect time to introduce doubt about the Maker and some more facts about the Black City and it's connection with the darkspawn. The most important thing about "the Maker" that is worshipped by the Chantry is that it's entirely possible that it's not an omnipotent god because doubt has deliberately been cast on a lot of the teachings of the Chantry. You're not meant to take what they say as fact, just loose guidelines. The Maker is in all likelihood just a primeval demon/spirit of the Fade. That doesn't preclude the existence of a bona fide creator god.

BackdoorPaco wrote...

The Xand wrote...

That might work for those without wit or logic, but I want to know how the Black City came to be and why there's a magical corrupting disease there and where the damn Maker is since it's his own throne and city and *what* that Maker is.

You may want to limit the amount of elitism in your posts. It can, and eventually will, offend people.

It's true though. It's the sort of questions you should be asking.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You really have no clue how to argue against people without assuming they're religious. It's so adorable. 

Suck my atheism.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:57 .

[The Xand]

Too many replies. You're all going to have to just wait your turn.

The Hierophant wrote...
Show me where in the NT or KJ edition Bible that Jesus instigated open warfare and violence against the Roman Empire.

Outside
of their deaths leading to the creation of a religion that's
suppossedly based on their teachings by a government that opposed them
(superficial) i fail to see how Andraste is Jesus with a bit of JoA
especially when Andraste's modus operandi is antithesis to Jesus'
beliefs.

It's a deliberate inversion of Jesus...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You're really making some
huge assumptions about what the purpose of the Dragon Age story or the
themes of the setting are. The Maker's purpose is not to be found out
and defeated. His purpose is exactly what it is now, to be part of the
religion of the Chantry. The Maker is not the equivalent is Sauron.He's
not the central mystery or antagonist of the series. The ambiguity in
the story regarding the Maker and the other gods is a feature of Dragon
Age, not a problem intended to be solved.

Or perhaps you're not paying enough attention to the story? The Maker is the direct creator of the Blight, and resides in a tainted Black City in the realm of nightmares manipulating the hopes and dreams of it's worshippers. He's an even bigger baddie than Sauron!

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:02 .

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

The Chantry's already tumbling down, now would be a perfect time to introduce doubt about the Maker and some more facts about the Black City and it's connection with the darkspawn. The most important thing about "the Maker" that is worshipped by the Chantry is that it's entirely possible that it's not an omnipotent god because doubt has deliberately been cast on a lot of the teachings of the Chantry. You're not meant to take what they say as fact, just loose guidelines. The Maker is in all likelihood just a primeval demon/spirit of the Fade. That doesn't preclude the existence of a bona fide creator god.

You should note that ambiguity about religion and the setting is one of the things the writers have always stated as among their intention for the series.  Casting doubt on something does not mean the writers are trying to tell you it's false.  They want to make a world like ours, where the nature of reality is uncertain.  I very much doubt they ever intend to address the nature of the Maker.