455 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

It's a deliberate inversion of Jesus...

To be honest, it's  mostly straight up Joan of Arc made into a prophet.  Little of Jesus to do with it.

[The Xand]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

The Chantry's already tumbling down, now would be a perfect time to introduce doubt about the Maker and some more facts about the Black City and it's connection with the darkspawn. The most important thing about "the Maker" that is worshipped by the Chantry is that it's entirely possible that it's not an omnipotent god because doubt has deliberately been cast on a lot of the teachings of the Chantry. You're not meant to take what they say as fact, just loose guidelines. The Maker is in all likelihood just a primeval demon/spirit of the Fade. That doesn't preclude the existence of a bona fide creator god.

You should note that ambiguity about religion and the setting is one of the things the writers have always stated as among their intention for the series.  Casting doubt on something does not mean the writers are trying to tell you it's false.  They want to make a world like ours, where the nature of reality is uncertain.  I very much doubt they ever intend to address the nature of the Maker.

Just so. What better way to shake things up than a false Maker? They're going to have to address the Black City and it's role in things at some point. Again, that doesn't preclude the existence of a bona fide creator god that isn't described exactly as it is in the Chantry.

[BackdoorPaco]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

The Chantry's already tumbling down, now would be a perfect time to introduce doubt about the Maker and some more facts about the Black City and it's connection with the darkspawn. The most important thing about "the Maker" that is worshipped by the Chantry is that it's entirely possible that it's not an omnipotent god because doubt has deliberately been cast on a lot of the teachings of the Chantry. You're not meant to take what they say as fact, just loose guidelines. The Maker is in all likelihood just a primeval demon/spirit of the Fade. That doesn't preclude the existence of a bona fide creator god.

You should note that ambiguity about religion and the setting is one of the things the writers have always stated as among their intention for the series.  Casting doubt on something does not mean the writers are trying to tell you it's false.  They want to make a world like ours, where the nature of reality is uncertain.  I very much doubt they ever intend to address the nature of the Maker.

You wrote it far better than I could have. 

[The Xand]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

It's a deliberate inversion of Jesus...

To be honest, it's  mostly straight up Joan of Arc made into a prophet.  Little of Jesus to do with it.

How many religions did Joan of Arc found? Amusing that you can't even fathom the inversion of Jesus, let alone the possibility the Maker isn't as it seems.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Xand wrote...

Or perhaps you're not paying enough attention to the story? The Maker is the direct creator of the Blight, and resides in a tainted Black City in the realm of nightmares manipulating the hopes and dreams of it's worshippers. He's an even bigger baddie than Sauron!

Literally none of that is true. I'm not the one who needs to pay more attention to the story. The implication of the Chant of Light is that te Blight was created by the "sins" of the Tevinter Magisters breaching the Golden City. And the Maker doesn't reside their anymore.

[The Xand]

BackdoorPaco wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

The Chantry's already tumbling down, now would be a perfect time to introduce doubt about the Maker and some more facts about the Black City and it's connection with the darkspawn. The most important thing about "the Maker" that is worshipped by the Chantry is that it's entirely possible that it's not an omnipotent god because doubt has deliberately been cast on a lot of the teachings of the Chantry. You're not meant to take what they say as fact, just loose guidelines. The Maker is in all likelihood just a primeval demon/spirit of the Fade. That doesn't preclude the existence of a bona fide creator god.

You should note that ambiguity about religion and the setting is one of the things the writers have always stated as among their intention for the series.  Casting doubt on something does not mean the writers are trying to tell you it's false.  They want to make a world like ours, where the nature of reality is uncertain.  I very much doubt they ever intend to address the nature of the Maker.

You wrote it far better than I could have. 

That saves me tearing apart a post of yours then.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Or
perhaps you're not paying enough attention to the story? The Maker is
the direct creator of the Blight, and resides in a tainted Black City in
the realm of nightmares manipulating the hopes and dreams of it's
worshippers. He's an even bigger baddie than Sauron!

Literally
none of that is true. I'm not the one who needs to pay more attention
to the story. The implication of the Chant of Light is that te Blight
was created by the "sins" of the Tevinter Magisters breaching the Golden
City. And the Maker doesn't reside their anymore.

Except
that is all true, and the Maker does reside there. Even with his throne
empty he was somehow still there to curse and taint the Tevinters.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:08 .

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

Just so. What better way to shake things up than a false Maker? They're going to have to address the Black City and it's role in things at some point. Again, that doesn't preclude the existence of a bona fide creator god that isn't described exactly as it is in the Chantry.

Revealing something as  definitively  true or false is precisely the opposite of ambiguity.

And no, they do not have to address the Black City, and if they do there's no reason they must explain the Maker.

[9TailsFox]

The Xand wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Where the writer gets his inspirtaion does not mean the stories are the same.

No, but it certainly goes far above and beyond "superficial" and "forced".

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No they don't need to explain this connection at all, since it isn't even certain that there is a connection in the first place. It is purposefully left ambigious so that there will never be an "ultimate truth".

Except there will be ultimate truths about the Black City, and the role of the Maker in it because Chekhov's gun and foreshadowing.

9TailsFox wrote...

How about plot twist black city is just place which contains magical disease bligh and nothing more. Mind blown yes?

That might work for those without wit or logic, but I want to know how the Black City came to be and why there's a magical corrupting disease there and where the damn Maker is since it's his own throne and city and *what* that Maker is.

Maker this Maker that. If you expect to meet Maker in person and he explain you stuff you probably will be disappointed. 
http://youtu.be/wSkL6dfZcy4?t=1m58s
Maker is god like any god in our real life religions. Just creatin of our minds. So if powerful Dreamer or several makes Maker real... does this even possible:unsure:.

[The Xand]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Just so. What better way to shake things up than a false Maker? They're going to have to address the Black City and it's role in things at some point. Again, that doesn't preclude the existence of a bona fide creator god that isn't described exactly as it is in the Chantry.

Revealing something as  definitively  true or false is precisely the opposite of ambiguity.

And no, they do not have to address the Black City, and if they do there's no reason they must explain the Maker.

Did you even read any of my other posts? Point the first; the Chantry being wrong doesn't preclude the existence of nebulous creator deities that Christians think exists. That gives you all the mystery you could ever want and gives those of us with questions answers.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:11 .

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

It's a deliberate inversion of Jesus...

To be honest, it's  mostly straight up Joan of Arc made into a prophet.  Little of Jesus to do with it.

How many religions did Joan of Arc found? Amusing that you can't even fathom the inversion of Jesus, let alone the possibility the Maker isn't as it seems.

Hence what I mentioned about being a prophet.  A warrior woman fighting for god and burning at the stake?  She is not divine herself, granting miracles solely by the sufferance of the Maker in the stories.  Jesus is divine.  Andraste has more in common with Muhammad than Jesus in some ways.  Why must she be an inversion?

[Medhia Nox]

@The Xand: I suggest you study more about religion.

Are you even aware of how many messianic figures exist in religious texts throughout the entire world?

Andraste is Andraste - not an inversion (not sure you know what "inversion" means either) of the Christ.

Also, Jesus did not found any religions. Do read up on a topic beforehand please. 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:14 .

[The Xand]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@The Xand: I suggest you study more about religion.

That's a funny way of saying "I disagree with you Xand".

Medhia Nox wrote...
Are you even aware of how many messianic figures exist in religious texts throughout the entire world?

How many of them have we taken seriously?

Medhia Nox wrote...
Andraste is Andraste - not an inversion (not sure you know what "inversion" means either) of the Christ.

It's deliberate inversion. A what if scenario, where Jesus had been more like Joan of Arc. A warrior female rather than a pacifist male.

Medhia Nox wrote...
Also, Jesus did not found any religions. Do read up on a topic beforehand please. 

So that Christianity huh?

Lord Aesir wrote...

Hence what I mentioned about being a
prophet.  A warrior woman fighting for god and burning at the stake?
 She is not divine herself, granting miracles solely by the sufferance
of the Maker in the stories.  Jesus is divine.  Andraste has more in
common with Muhammad than Jesus in some ways.  Why must she be an
inversion?

Dude. Andraste *is* divine. Again, warrior female, pacifist male. They're total opposites of each other.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:18 .

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

Did you even read any of my other posts? Point the first; the Chantry being wrong doesn't preclude the existence of nebulous creator deities that Christians think exists. That gives you all the mystery you could ever want and gives those of us with questions answers.

The mystery of the Maker's existence is more compelling to me than a blank slate, which is what you are telling me I should be content with.  The point of an ambiguous setting is not to have your questions answered.  They could be, but  the whole point is that the Chantry could very well be right.  Maybe they are entirely correct  about the Maker, the Black City, all of it.

Or not.

Throwing the Chantry and its followers into the black as a pack of liars and delusional rabbles makes the setting far less compelling in my eyes.  The possibility of them being right creates ambiguity.  If they instead chose to reveal uncertainty as the true nature of Thedas' reality, they take that away.  So you see, ambiguity and uncertainty are not the same thing.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Xand wrote...

Except
that is all true, and the Maker does reside there. Even with his throne
empty he was somehow still there to curse and taint the Tevinters.

Maybe you should pay more attention to the link you kept leaving in the thread. The Dragon Age: Origins intro says they "were twisted and cursed by their own corruption."

The Canticle of Threnodies quote which is the very first thing we see says "You have brought sin to Heavan and doom upon all the world."

Narrator Ducan says "The Chantry teaches us that it is the hubris of men that brought the darkspawn into our world."

Blame for the Blight is attributed to the Tevinter Magisters. And I've already explained where it says in the lore that The Maker supposedly abandoned the Golden City before it became the Black City.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:24 .

[The Xand]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Maybe you should pay more
attention to the link you kept leaving in the thread. The Dragon Age
Origins intro says they "were twisted and cursed by their own corruption."

The
Canticle of Threnodies quote which is the very first thing we see says
"You have brought sin to Heavan and doom upon all the world."

Narrator Ducan says "The Chantry teaches us that it is the hubris of men that brought the darkspawn into our world."

Blame
for the Blight is attributed to the Magisters. And I've already
explained where it says in the lore that The Maker supposedly abandoned
the Golden City before it became the Black City.

Ofc the Chantry is going to say that. They serve the Maker's agenda. And it is not a good god.

Lord Aesir wrote...

The mystery of the Maker's existence is more compelling to me than a blank slate, which is what you are telling me I should be content with.  The point of an ambiguous setting is not to have your questions answered.  They could be, but  the whole point is that the Chantry could very well be right.  Maybe they are entirely correct  about the Maker, the Black City, all of it.

Or not.

Throwing the Chantry and its followers into the black as a pack of liars
and delusional rabbles makes the setting far less compelling in my
eyes.  The possibility of them being right creates ambiguity.  If they
instead chose to reveal uncertainty as the true nature of Thedas'
reality, they take that away.  So you see, ambiguity and uncertainty are
not the same thing.

That sounds totally satisfying and fulfilling. Do you also walk out of movies haflway through to avoid the ending?

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:25 .

[Medhia Nox]

The Xand: There's nothing to disagree with Xand.

You're so obviously not educated in religion. I'm just asking you to stop spreading misinformation.

Talk about Andraste and the Maker all you want, but the things you're claiming about religion (notably Christianity, which is your religion of choice to know nothing about) are just incorrect.

[Estelindis]

The Xand wrote...

How many religions did Joan of Arc found? Amusing that you can't even fathom the inversion of Jesus, let alone the possibility the Maker isn't as it seems.

I think that it's insulting to make claims about what other community members "can't even fathom."  It's one thing to talk about what people do or don't understand, but to talk about what they cannot understand is referring to their capacity and really not okay in my opinion.

Speaking as someone who has studied Christian theology at under- and post-graduate level for thirteen years and taught it at said levels for several of those, I would say that Andraste is not an inversion of Jesus.  There are some themes in common and others that are not shared.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Xand wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Maybe you should pay more
attention to the link you kept leaving in the thread. The Dragon Age
Origins intro says they "were twisted and cursed by their own corruption."

The
Canticle of Threnodies quote which is the very first thing we see says
"You have brought sin to Heavan and doom upon all the world."

Narrator Ducan says "The Chantry teaches us that it is the hubris of men that brought the darkspawn into our world."

Blame
for the Blight is attributed to the Magisters. And I've already
explained where it says in the lore that The Maker supposedly abandoned
the Golden City before it became the Black City.

Ofc the Chantry is going to say that. They serve the Maker's agenda. And it is not a good god.

Then why do you think the Maker is related to the darkspawn at all, if you don't beleive in the Chantry story?

[The Xand]

Estelindis wrote...

The Xand wrote...

How many religions did Joan of Arc found? Amusing that you can't even fathom the inversion of Jesus, let alone the possibility the Maker isn't as it seems.

I think that it's insulting to make claims about what other community members "can't even fathom."  It's one thing to talk about what people do or don't understand, but to talk about what they cannot understand is referring to their capacity and really not okay in my opinion.

Speaking as someone who has studied Christian theology at under- and post-graduate level for thirteen years and taught it at said levels for several of those, I would say that Andraste is not an inversion of Jesus.  There are some themes in common and others that are not shared.  

That would be why David Gaider opted for Joan of Arc as the obvious choice for an inversion of Jesus then.

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

So that Christianity huh?

His direct followers and those that followed them considered it  "True" Jewdeism, not a new religion.  That came after Jesus.

Dude. Andraste *is* divine. Again, warrior female, pacifist male. They're total opposites of each other.

Those are flimsy grounds for calling her an inversion.

[The Xand]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then why do you think the Maker is related to the darkspawn at all, if you don't beleive in the Chantry story?

Ah, now that is an interesting question. It's because I believe there's a kernel of truth to the Chantry's story. There *is* an entity that somehow contrived to manipulate Andraste and sow the seeds of a religion with itself at the centre, but I doubt very much that it's a genuine creator god. The Maker is just a title that it adopted. I'm still unsure as to what it might be, or it's relation to the Black City. Possibly the Black City was Golden once, but it was created by man, and the entity (primeval demon/spirit, in all likelihood) moved in, corrupted the city then wove an illusion around it or outright lied about it being golden to lure the Tevinters in to demolish a rival religion, then spoke to Andraste in her dreams to found a new religion to it and to finish off the Old Gods.

[The Xand]

Lord Aesir wrote...

His direct followers and those that followed them considered it  "True" Jewdeism, not a new religion.  That came after Jesus.

Pedantry. Jesus is the progenator of Christianity, and Christianity is a religion ergo he founded it. Whether he saw it as reformation of an existing religion or no doesn't matter. A new religion was born.

Lord Aesir wrote...

Those are flimsy grounds for calling her an inversion.

More substantial than outright denials. A fighting female warlord is the antithesis of a male pacifist prophet. That's why David Gaider chose her.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:37 .

[Estelindis]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...
Dude. Andraste *is* divine. Again, warrior female, pacifist male. They're total opposites of each other.

Those are flimsy grounds for calling her an inversion.

Indeed.  There are similarities and dissimilarities.  One can cherry-pick the dissimilarities and call Andraste an inversion of Jesus, or one can cherry-pick the similarities and call her an allegory for him.  I don't think that either is especially helpful or relevant.

Modifié par Estelindis, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:38 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Xand wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Then why do you think the Maker is related to the darkspawn at all, if you don't beleive in the Chantry story?

Ah, now that is an interesting question. It's because I believe there's a kernel of truth to the Chantry's story. There *is* an entity that somehow contrived to manipulate Andraste and sow the seeds of a religion with itself at the centre, but I doubt very much that it's a genuine creator god. The Maker is just a title that it adopted. I'm still unsure as to what it might be, or it's relation to the Black City. Possibly the Black City was Golden once, but it was created by man, and the entity (primeval demon/spirit, in all likelihood) moved in, corrupted the city then wove an illusion around it or outright lied about it being golden to lure the Tevinters in to demolish a rival religion, then spoke to Andraste in her dreams to found a new religion to it and to finish off the Old Gods.

Ok, but none of that is canon. That's just your theoretical fanon about the Maker. Earlier you used it to say that I wasn't paying attention to the story that obviously hinted that the Maker was the ultimate antagonist.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:40 .

[The Xand]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Ok, but none of that is canon. That's just your theoretical fanon. Earlier you used it to say that I wasn't paying attention to the story that obviously hinted that the Maker was the ultimate antagonist.

That's because he is, and it's very strongly hinted at throughout the whole series. The Maker causing the Blight is a central theme, as is aspersions of doubt on Chantry teachings.

Did you ever play Bioshock Infinite? It's like the glorious city shown at the start slowly being brought down and dirty as the story progresses and mysteries unfold.