455 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I JUST TOLD YOU how the Maker didn't cause the Blight except in your theory. Bioshock Infnite is a different game from Dragon Age, so I don't see why anything happening in that should be like in Dragon Age. Dobut on the Chantry's position is part of ambiguity feature of the setting, it's not meant as the start of a quest to disporve the Chantry's belief or the Maker.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:44 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Xands indoctrination theory is as bad as the other indoctrination theory tbh.

[The Xand]

Estelindis wrote...

Indeed.  There are similarities and dissimilarities.  One can cherry-pick the dissimilarities and call Andraste an inversion of Jesus, or one can cherry-pick the similarities and call her an allegory for him.  I don't think that either is especially helpful or relevant.

They used Joan of Arc as an example because she was about as far from Jesus as things go. They wanted to create a radically different founder for the Catholic Church.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Xands indoctrination theory is as bad as the other indoctrination theory tbh.

Fudge u, it's magnificent.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:43 .

[Estelindis]

The Xand wrote...

I believe there's a kernel of truth to the Chantry's story. There *is* an entity that somehow contrived to manipulate Andraste and sow the seeds of a religion with itself at the centre, but I doubt very much that it's a genuine creator god. The Maker is just a title that it adopted. I'm still unsure as to what it might be, or it's relation to the Black City. Possibly the Black City was Golden once, but it was created by man, and the entity (primeval demon/spirit, in all likelihood) moved in, corrupted the city then wove an illusion around it or outright lied about it being golden to lure the Tevinters in to demolish a rival religion, then spoke to Andraste in her dreams to found a new religion to it and to finish off the Old Gods.

Given that the Maker has quite notably been an absentee deity, what do you think this imposter would have gained by such manipulation?  Since a divine withdrawal occurred after Andraste's death - the withdrawal here being of your imposter - this false Maker would have had little involvement with the world that it was so keen to have dancing to its tune.

Secondly, what makes you think that the golden city was created by humankind?  Why would the magisters have been so desperate to reach something already reached by humans, indeed that never would have existed without humans?

[Senya]

I think it's best to leave the Maker ambiguous. Doing anything with him would cause fan backlash no matter how they go about it.

As it is, a character fighting and defeating anything above the level of an Archdemon is incredibly overpowered in my opinion.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 04 novembre 2013 - 07:47 .

[Ravensword]

The Maker is actually a person from an advanced civilization from a faraway land in the world of Thedas. It is known.

[Medhia Nox]

@Ravensword: The Maker is Qunari?!

That's delicious.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Magnificent isn't quite the word I would use. Malignant maybe, or Misappropriated.

[Xilizhra]

If the Maker exists, he's an antagonist by default, having either created the darkspawn or released them.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilihzhra: Don't forget that people die on Thedas - so the if the Maker made up death he's OBVIOUSLY an antagonist.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilihzhra: Don't forget that people die on Thedas - so the if the Maker made up death he's OBVIOUSLY an antagonist.

That too. Certainly allowing souls to be banished to the Void forever would be heinously evil.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

If the Maker exists, he's an antagonist by default, having either created the darkspawn or released them.

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilihzhra: Don't forget that people die on Thedas - so the if the Maker made up death he's OBVIOUSLY an antagonist.

Do you think that this applies even if the Maker created the whole Dragon Age universe, even if no one would ever have any life at all without this creation?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually the Maker, according to the Chantry, didn't even live in the GOlden City at the time of the Magister's breaching it. So whatever corrupted it, might not even have been the Maker in the first place. Which would also mean taht the Maker didn't create Darkspawn or released them. And it would mean that they can "explore" the Black City without ever revealing anything more about the Maker.

[Xilizhra]

Do you think that this applies even if the Maker created the whole Dragon Age universe, even if no one would ever have any life at all without this creation?

Yes, just as much as humans creating children and then abusing them.

Actually the Maker, according to the Chantry, didn't even live in the GOlden City at the time of the Magister's breaching it. So whatever corrupted it, might not even have been the Maker in the first place. Which would also mean taht the Maker didn't create Darkspawn or released them. And it would mean that they can "explore" the Black City without ever revealing anything more about the Maker.

The Chantry also says that the darkspawn were cast out.

[Ravensword]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Ravensword: The Maker is Qunari?!

That's delicious.

Further away. An unknown people from an unknown part of the world.

[Estelindis]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the Maker, according to the Chantry, didn't even live in the GOlden City at the time of the Magister's breaching it. So whatever corrupted it, might not even have been the Maker in the first place. Which would also mean taht the Maker didn't create Darkspawn or released them. And it would mean that they can "explore" the Black City without ever revealing anything more about the Maker.

Doesn't Corphyreus also say that it was already black?

Anyway, whatever the truth is, no matter whether mages caused the blackening, or something else did, or it was black all along, I expect that it has to have something to do with magic.  So many things in the setting seem connected to magic!  The Fade is related to magic.  Magic thrums through the temple where the Urn of Sacred Ashes is found.  

What does magic actually mean, fundamentally, in Thedas?  Andraste said that magic is meant to serve, never to rule.  The fabled longevity of elves supposedly had something to do with their relationship to magic, so perhaps it served them very well for a long time, but in that case why did it desert them on contact with humankind (assuming that this actually occured and isn't just a myth)?  And why do dwarves have a different relationship with magic yet again?

This mystery is a really intriguing feature of the setting.  In many fantasy worlds, particularly those heavily based on D&D, there's a very clear divide between magic and religion.  In Thedas, magic and the divine seem to be really closely intertwined.  I look forward to finding out what surprises the devs have in store for us, even if it takes many, many games to unwrap the secret.

[Ravensword]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If the Maker exists, he's an antagonist by default, having either created the darkspawn or released them.

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilihzhra: Don't forget that people die on Thedas - so the if the Maker made up death he's OBVIOUSLY an antagonist.

Do you think that this applies even if the Maker created the whole Dragon Age universe, even if no one would ever have any life at all without this creation?

What's the point of creating life, if you're gonna be cruel towards your own creations?

[The Xand]

Estelindis wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the Maker, according to the Chantry, didn't even live in the GOlden City at the time of the Magister's breaching it. So whatever corrupted it, might not even have been the Maker in the first place. Which would also mean taht the Maker didn't create Darkspawn or released them. And it would mean that they can "explore" the Black City without ever revealing anything more about the Maker.

Doesn't Corphyreus also say that it was already black?

Anyway, whatever the truth is, no matter whether mages caused the blackening, or something else did, or it was black all along, I expect that it has to have something to do with magic.  So many things in the setting seem connected to magic!  The Fade is related to magic.  Magic thrums through the temple where the Urn of Sacred Ashes is found.  

What does magic actually mean, fundamentally, in Thedas?  Andraste said that magic is meant to serve, never to rule.  The fabled longevity of elves supposedly had something to do with their relationship to magic, so perhaps it served them very well for a long time, but in that case why did it desert them on contact with humankind (assuming that this actually occured and isn't just a myth)?  And why do dwarves have a different relationship with magic yet again?

This mystery is a really intriguing feature of the setting.  In many fantasy worlds, particularly those heavily based on D&D, there's a very clear divide between magic and religion.  In Thedas, magic and the divine seem to be really closely intertwined.  I look forward to finding out what surprises the devs have in store for us, even if it takes many, many games to unwrap the secret.

Corypheus is still alive so hopefully he can shed more light on the matter.

I too want them to develop the gods of Thedas further. A more human aspect and physical appearance would be very nice indeed. I don't see why the gods can't be of a more pagan variety which is infinitely more interesting than the monolithic and inalienable god of the Abrahamic religions.

They could be like they were in American Gods.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:23 .

[Schneidend]

Estelindis wrote...

Secondly, what makes you think that the golden city was created by humankind?  Why would the magisters have been so desperate to reach something already reached by humans, indeed that never would have existed without humans?

Why would anybody delve into an ancient ruin or an unexplored cave? If mankind made the Black City, that doesn't mean the magisters were even around when it was made, or were even aware that it was made.

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

They used Joan of Arc as an example because she was about as far from Jesus as things go. They wanted to create a radically different founder for the Catholic Church.

While it is the case that Andraste evokes comparisons both to Joan of Arc and the Chantry evokes comparisons to the Catholic Church, to boil them down to mere analogs or inversions is misleading and overly simplistic.

[Estelindis]

Ravensword wrote...

What's the point of creating life, if you're gonna be cruel towards your own creations?

Well, assuming that the Chantry's account of what happened is correct (which, of course, it may not be), the magisters could be seen as the ones to blame, not the Maker.  I think that a devout Andrastian could interpret what happened to the magisters as an outward transformation in accordance with their inner corruption.  Another Andrastian perspective might be that their forms were burned by a holiness of the divine that they, in their arrogance, did not expect, a little like the damage one would do to one's eyes if one looked directly at the sun rather than using darkened glass.

To be honest, though, I think that the Maker doesn't seem particularly cruel or kind.  He mostly seems indifferent.  Perhaps that's its own kind of cruelty, though, if spirits and people are the Maker's children.  A great deal of hurt can be done by an indifferent parent, an absence of love causing deep pain.  Of course, other people might regard non-interference as a positive thing, leaving people to grow and develop according to their own wishes rather than trying to influence them.  It really depends on your outlook. 

[Estelindis]

Schneidend wrote...

Why would anybody delve into an ancient ruin or an unexplored cave? If mankind made the Black City, that doesn't mean the magisters were even around when it was made, or were even aware that it was made.

It just seems bizarre considering how human beings seemed not to have a very well-developed civilization by comparison to the elves for a very long time.  Of course, that's going by the accounts of the elves, so who's to say?

[The Xand]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

They used Joan of Arc as an example because she was about as far from Jesus as things go. They wanted to create a radically different founder for the Catholic Church.

While it is the case that Andraste evokes comparisons both to Joan of Arc and the Chantry evokes comparisons to the Catholic Church, to boil them down to mere analogs or inversions is misleading and overly simplistic.

Sometimes things really are that simple. Nobody ever argues that 2+2 is 5.

Estelindis wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Why
would anybody delve into an ancient ruin or an unexplored cave? If
mankind made the Black City, that doesn't mean the magisters were even
around when it was made, or were even aware that it was made.

It
just seems bizarre considering how human beings seemed not to have a
very well-developed civilization by comparison to the elves for a very
long time.  Of course, that's going by the accounts of the elves, so
who's to say?

Well there's still another continent full of humans out there. The World of Thedas mentions something about their fleeing a shadow goddess/natural disaster, so maybe there was an Atlantean style ultrarace of humans that went a little too far. Hah, maybe the Golden City was their Atlantis.

Estelindis wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

What's the point of creating life, if you're gonna be cruel towards your own creations?

Well,
assuming that the Chantry's account of what happened is correct (which,
of course, it may not be), the magisters could be seen as the ones to
blame, not the Maker.  I think that a devout Andrastian could interpret
what happened to the magisters as an outward transformation in
accordance with their inner corruption.  Another Andrastian perspective
might be that their forms were burned by a holiness of the divine that
they, in their arrogance, did not expect, a little like the damage one
would do to one's eyes if one looked directly at the sun rather than
using darkened glass.

To be honest, though, I think that the
Maker doesn't seem particularly cruel or kind.  He mostly seems
indifferent.  Perhaps that's its own kind of cruelty, though, if spirits
and people are the Maker's children.  A great deal of hurt can be done
by an indifferent parent, an absence of love causing deep pain.  Of
course, other people might regard non-interference as a positive thing,
leaving people to grow and develop according to their own wishes rather
than trying to influence them.  It really depends on your outlook. 

Isn't that a little simple for Dragon Age though? Like in terms of morality, since that implies that all of the Tevinter mages were evil. Surely if the city was so pure and golden it would have enlightened and illuminated them all.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:43 .

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...


That sounds totally satisfying and fulfilling. Do you also walk out of movies haflway through to avoid the ending?

I don't expect a movie' plot to explain a movie or a game's plot to explain every aspect of their universes or reveal whether or not their fictional gods are real in that universe.  I don't see how the ending of a plot has anything to do with either of those, especially one where such concerns are only tangentially relevant as in Dragon Age.

A setting where the major religion may or may not be true is conducive to a grey moral universe and better yet, leaves the player to judge members of that religion by their values and beliefs.

A setting that reveals those beliefs to be based on falsehoods and deception encourages the player to discard them as delusional at best and liars at worst by default.  That setting is less interesting to me.