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[The Xand]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Sometimes things really are that simple. Nobody ever argues that 2+2 is 5.

Heh heh..........heheheheheheheheh.

(yes they do, for a sufficiently large value of two)

Nobody who isn't pretentious and pedantic ever argues that 2+2 is 5.

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...


That sounds totally satisfying and fulfilling. Do you also walk out of movies haflway through to avoid the ending?

I
don't expect a movie' plot to explain a movie or a game's plot to
explain every aspect of their universes or reveal whether or not their
fictional gods are real in that universe.  I don't see how the ending of
a plot has anything to do with either of those, especially one where
such concerns are only tangentially relevant as in Dragon Age.

A
setting where the major religion may or may not be true is conducive to a
grey moral universe and better yet, leaves the player to judge members
of that religion by their values and beliefs.

It's relevent because the Maker and the Black City are integral to the core narrative of the Dragon Age world, and as such need to actually progress to improve. As is, we're just in media res.

Lord Aesir wrote...

A setting that  reveals those beliefs to be based on falsehoods and deception encourages
the player to discard them as delusional at best and liars at worst by default.  That setting is less interesting to me.

That's Dragon Age for you.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:49 .

[Vulpe]

Ravensword wrote...

What's the point of creating life, if you're gonna be cruel towards your own creations?

I don't know. Ask Mr. Gaider or even better,George R. R. Martin.

On a serious note. The Maker and it's future development ( if there would be any ) it's at the hands of the writing team. Now what reason would be considered acceptable ? That's an interesting question. Maybe he's not a good or evil entity and created the world out of boredom and now he just enjoys the show or gaved up on it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ravensword wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If the Maker exists, he's an antagonist by default, having either created the darkspawn or released them.

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilihzhra: Don't forget that people die on Thedas - so the if the Maker made up death he's OBVIOUSLY an antagonist.

Do you think that this applies even if the Maker created the whole Dragon Age universe, even if no one would ever have any life at all without this creation?

What's the point of creating life, if you're gonna be cruel towards your own creations?

Death isn't a cruelty.

[Reznore57]

Estelindis wrote...

Given that the Maker has quite notably been an absentee deity, what do you think this imposter would have gained by such manipulation?  Since a divine withdrawal occurred after Andraste's death - the withdrawal here being of your imposter - this false Maker would have had little involvement with the world that it was so keen to have dancing to its tune.

Secondly, what makes you think that the golden city was created by humankind?  Why would the magisters have been so desperate to reach something already reached by humans, indeed that never would have existed without humans?

The elf used to walk the fade , a lot.
They also had Arcane warrior able to shift through the fade and Thedas on a whim.
Wouldn't they build themselves a city in this realm , the fade is always shifting , it makes sense they would create a static point in this space.
They also had magic , and knew more about this than Dwarves ,and humans.
They also had portals , Eluvian .Morrigan took an old god soul there.To prepare .
So I don't know but putting two and tow together ....

The heart of the Golden city is the prison of the Old god souls , Elves used to guard it and could tap into their powers.
Humans didn't know but they noticed something , The heart of the golden city was also the heart of Arlathan in Thedas .So humans attacked this siege of power.
When Arlathan sucked to the ground , the souls of the gods were awaken , and their emotions took form in the fade , the first demons/spirit.
All the elven dreamer were possessed , in the Brecillian Forest and in Sundermount , the place where Elvhen elders went to sleep are places where huge battle happened between the Imperium and the Elves.Why fight over graveyards?The last battle was over a graveyard?Makes no sense.
How come elf loose this war , they had far better magic than Tevinter ever did...Makes no sense.

After this the remaining elves didn't gave away their secrets , no one in Tevinter knew how to use Eluvian.

I don't know ,it makes far more sense for me to imagine some elves survived , and later whispered in Human ear to go to the Golden city .Knowing without the proper tool and knowledge , things would go very very bad.

As for who is behind the Maker , I don't know .But the Imperium had plenty of ennemies , and when Andraste strike , if Kirkwall (the band of three codexes) is anything to go by ....magisters were still looking after something.And Corypheus said he sought "The Light" .
I think it's great Andraste created "the Chant of Light"...Too bad it doesn't seem to do anything.

As a side note I have nothing against the Chantry , but their "politics" have been holding back magical research.With the Blight and such it isn't so good.
The warden and Avernus did find something , by using blood magic...

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Xand wrote...

It's relevent because the Maker and the Black City are integral to the core narrative of the Dragon Age world, and as such need to actually progress to improve. As is, we're just in media res.

The Black City is borderline integral, the Maker is not.

[The Xand]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Nobody who isn't pretentious and pedantic ever argues that 2+2 is 5.

I disagree.

It's certainly a valid point. Technically 2.4 IS a version of 2, but 2.4 does not result in 4. It results in 4.8, or 5.

Basically, no, things are actually rarely "that simple."

Except 2+2. Which equals 4.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Xand wrote...

It's
relevent because the Maker and the Black City are integral to the core
narrative of the Dragon Age world, and as such need to actually progress
to improve. As is, we're just in media res.

The Black City is borderline integral, the Maker is not.

Both of those will be resolved in the fullness of time.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:51 .

[Estelindis]

The Xand wrote...

Well there's still another continent full of humans out there. The World of Thedas mentions something about their fleeing a shadow goddess/natural disaster, so maybe there was an Atlantean style ultrarace of humans that went a little too far. Hah, maybe the Golden City was their Atlantis.

Fiddle-de-dee, that might be interesting!  It would still beg the question of why there's no mention of them in ancient elven lore, but of course much history of the past has been lost.

The Xand wrote...

Isn't that a little simple for Dragon Age though? Like in terms of morality, since that implies that all of the Tevinter mages were evil. Surely if the city was so pure and golden it would have enlightened and illuminated them all.

Still arguing from the point of view of an imaginary Andrastian, it is far from "too simple."  In fact, what you describe could well be viewed as simplistic.  Enlightenment is an inner process of mind and spirit, not simply a potion that one can drink.  If one is not open to it, it cannot be imposed from without.  Perhaps it's the difference between someone who looks at a slave and sees a person full of possibility, whose full potential and personal dignity are never truly imprisoned, and someone who just sees a resource to be exploited for their own gain. 

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

Sometimes things really are that simple. Nobody ever argues that 2+2 is 5.

Most if the time they aren't.  It's like the comparisons between Thedas kingdoms and medieval kingdoms.  Sure there are vague parallels but it's not as simple as Carolingian France being plunked down next to 12th century England.  These analogs may form a foundation but it's not that simple.

Andraste has the godly warrior woman and Martyrdom of Joan.  She performed miracles like many a prophet  in the Bible.  As a conqueror prophet, she could be said to resemble Muhammad, who led his followers into battle.  It's just not as simple as calling her an inversion of Jesus.

[The Xand]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Except 2+2. Which equals 4.

For a given value of two. That is to say, 2.

So essentially very simple then.

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Sometimes things really are that simple. Nobody ever argues that 2+2 is 5.

Most
if the time they aren't.  It's like the comparisons between Thedas
kingdoms and medieval kingdoms.  Sure there are vague parallels but it's
not as simple as Carolingian France being plunked down next to 12th
century England.  These analogs may form a foundation but it's not that
simple.

Andraste has the godly warrior woman and Martyrdom of
Joan.  She performed miracles like many a prophet  in the Bible.  As a
conqueror prophet, she could be said to resemble Muhammad, who led his
followers into battle.  It's just not as simple as calling her an
inversion of Jesus.

Most of the time they are exactly that simple. In fact, it's easy to point out what countries the nations of Thedas are based on and the influences of other nations, and the ones that aren't are still blank slates. Some people just look too far into things and can't see the wood for the trees.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:57 .

[Vulpe]

Let's not forget of the posibility that physical Thedas and the Fade where, at a time in the world's unrecorded history, not separated by the Veil. Yavana says that there was a time "before the Veil, before the mysteries were forgotten, when dragons ruled the skies.

So,if the Golden/Black City was not constructed by the Maker, but by other forces (humans or something/someone else ), its construction could have taken place then.

[Ravensword]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If the Maker exists, he's an antagonist by default, having either created the darkspawn or released them.

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilihzhra: Don't forget that people die on Thedas - so the if the Maker made up death he's OBVIOUSLY an antagonist.

Do you think that this applies even if the Maker created the whole Dragon Age universe, even if no one would ever have any life at all without this creation?

What's the point of creating life, if you're gonna be cruel towards your own creations?

Death isn't a cruelty.

Sounds like a pretty absolutist statement—as if death is okay in every case, including the unjustified deprivation of life from someone innocent.

But it's not only that. Is the Maker omniscient. If so, then he knew about the Blights and the darkspawn. Either the Maker does exist and is cruel or incompetent, doesn't care, or doesn't even exist in the first place and is just another god in a myth of how Thedas works.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ravensword wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If the Maker exists, he's an antagonist by default, having either created the darkspawn or released them.

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilihzhra: Don't forget that people die on Thedas - so the if the Maker made up death he's OBVIOUSLY an antagonist.

Do you think that this applies even if the Maker created the whole Dragon Age universe, even if no one would ever have any life at all without this creation?

What's the point of creating life, if you're gonna be cruel towards your own creations?

Death isn't a cruelty.

Sounds like a pretty absolutist statement—as if death is okay in every case, including the unjustified deprivation of life from someone innocent.

But it's not only that. Is the Maker omniscient. If so, then he knew about the Blights and the darkspawn. Either the Maker does exist and is cruel or incompetent, doesn't care, or doesn't even exist in the first place and is just another god in a myth of how Thedas works.

Death is the only absolute that can't be argued with. Everybody dies, everything ceases to exist. The means of how one achieve death, might seem cruel (for instance murder victims and so on). But death itself is not a cruelty. It is death that allows us to enjoy life.

[The Xand]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Just so you know, editing other posts to conform them to your perceptions is looked on poorly here.

And in reply, you know what I said.

Indeed. I rather blew apart your point did I not? You might almost say it was simple.

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...
It's relevent because the Maker and the Black City are integral to the core narrative of the Dragon Age world, and as such need to actually progress to improve. As is, we're just in media res.

The Black City, maybe.  The Maker is a central point of lore, but never the narrative.

That's Dragon Age for you.

Dragon Age is about ambiguity and unclear morality.

What you ask for is something much more black and white.

[Xilizhra]

Death is the only absolute that can't be argued with. Everybody dies, everything ceases to exist. The means of how one achieve death, might seem cruel (for instance murder victims and so on). But death itself is not a cruelty. It is death that allows us to enjoy life.

Rather absolutist there again, especially in Dragon Age terms. Spirits are immortal and yet seem to enjoy life well enough.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Death is the only absolute that can't be argued with. Everybody dies, everything ceases to exist. The means of how one achieve death, might seem cruel (for instance murder victims and so on). But death itself is not a cruelty. It is death that allows us to enjoy life.

Rather absolutist there again, especially in Dragon Age terms. Spirits are immortal and yet seem to enjoy life well enough.

Spirits aren't immortal either. Justice claims as much anyway. He quite specifically says that nothing outlives the spirits which created it in the Fade.

[The Xand]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Xand wrote...
It's relevent because the Maker and the Black City are integral to the core narrative of the Dragon Age world, and as such need to actually progress to improve. As is, we're just in media res.

The Black City, maybe.  The Maker is a central point of lore, but never the narrative.

Dragon Age literally starts with the Maker casting out the darkspawn and beginning the Blights.

Lord Aesir wrote...

Dragon Age is about ambiguity and unclear morality.

What you ask for is something much more black and white.

You seem unwilling to accept the hints of a rather darker nature of the Chantry and it's god.

[Heimdall]

The Xand wrote...

Most of the time they are exactly that simple. In fact, it's easy to point out what countries the nations of Thedas are based on and the influences of other nations, and the ones that aren't are still blank slates. Some people just look too far into things and can't see the wood for the trees.

The extent to which they are based real nations is very loose as anyone at all familiar with medieval history can tell you.  Which is precisely what I'm saying about Andraste.  The basis is there, but it's not as simple or direct as you make it out to be when you call her an "inversion of Jesus".

[The Xand]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Indeed. I rather blew apart your point did I not? You might almost say it was simple.

No, you really didn't.

Do you understand what precision is? Precision is how precise or exact your measurement is.

For instance, the argument "2+2=5" focuses on the imprecision employed in integers. Thus, 2.4 counts as 2 in a less precise system...and combining them results in 5 for an imprecise system.

The focus of that is on precision. And if you examine precision, you'll find that it's never simple. There's always another level you can go to to make things more precise. There's almost never a simple integer that works. That's simply not reality.

And yet somehow 4 contrives to remain the answer to 2+2.

Funny old world, innit.

Lord Aesir wrote...

The extent to which they are based real nations is
very loose as anyone at all familiar with medieval history can tell
you.  Which is precisely what I'm saying about Andraste.  The basis is
there, but it's not as simple or direct as you make it out to be when
you call her an "inversion of Jesus".

I suppose next you'll be denying the French influence on Orlesia.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 09:06 .

[Schneidend]

Estelindis wrote...
It just seems bizarre considering how human beings seemed not to have a very well-developed civilization by comparison to the elves for a very long time.  Of course, that's going by the accounts of the elves, so who's to say?

That's what Dark Ages and a lack of proper excavation equipment can do to you. That continent-spanning empire collapses, and a couple centuries later people don't even remember it existing.

[Allan Schumacher]

The Xand wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Just so you know, editing other posts to conform them to your perceptions is looked on poorly here.

And in reply, you know what I said.

Indeed. I rather blew apart your point did I not? You might almost say it was simple.

At this point you're coming across as excessively confrontational.  I'd prefer if you and EntropicAngel dropped this tangent.

And declaring yourself the winner in a discussion of opinions and perspectives (tangent or otherwise) isn't something I like to see either.


To everyone: Play nice.