455 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
And, IMO, she was a deluded harlot having nightmares about and getting high with too much "magic"

I think some NPC in DAI should get that line.

[Estelindis]

EntropicAngel wrote...

There's a reason I said "historical" instead of true.

But nvm, guess he/she isn't here anymore.

You were quite right to draw the distinction.

If you were talking about me: yes, I had gone to bed at that point (and I am female, for the record).  

Anyway, while a part of me wants to get into this debate about historicity and real-world religious texts, I am refraining from doing so on the basis that it is wildly off-topic for this forum.  In my opinion, real-world religions should only be discussed here insofar as they are relevant to Dragon Age.  I will only say that careful scholarship does not succumb to many of the sweeping generalisations found in the perspectives outlined by people in this thread (both those you quoted and others), which are, in my opinion, insufficiently nuanced and plain inaccurate on some points.  I will not go into specifics.  This isn't the place.  Those who want to know more can research the subjects themselves. 

I'd like to get back on topic, but I'm not sure if anyone else is still interested in discussing Dragon Age religion at this point.  In case anyone is, what do people think of the relationship between the Fade and the various religions of Thedas?  

Personally, I find it interesting that the dwarves, who have the least to do with the Fade, have The Stone as the all-encompassing structure that supports their world and gives special meaning to the legacy of their lives.  The underground world seems to have a particular relationship with lyrium, a material which allows mages to enter the Fade physically.  Dwarves of the miner caste can find lyrium by listening to it.  Apparently, it sings.  Could this be anything like the song of the Old Gods?  It's interesting as well that dwarves who dwell under the surface have a resistance to magic and do not enter the Fade when they dream.  The longer they live on the Surface, the more their resistance to magic fades away.  What is it about the underground world that blocks its residents off from the same Fade that lyrium, mostly found underground, enables mages to enter physically?

[Eternal Phoenix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also it being finally written down 200 years after jesus died, and another hundred or so before the religion was finally settled for what was or wasn't canon makes me highly skeptical if not suspicious.

Didn't the Disciples wrote most of it after Jesus died? And the letters that are also part of the New Testament?
Clearly at least some of the Desciples could read and write and have written things down.

You can argue that wihout the original text, you cannot be sure of authenticity of the writing, but given how many historical texts are copies.... well.

The Flying Grey Warden is being fed with the propaganda of some atheist leaders (specifically the atheist pseudo-teachers on YouTube).

Actual scholars do attribute the gospels to a few decades after Jesus because they were being told orally beforehand. Not to mention that the Dead Sea Scrolls (and their datings) validate much of the New Testament alongside extra-biblical gospels of Christ as well as other extra-biblical sources (Tactius, Pliney The Younger, Jospephus, Suetonius). The fact that these historians (one of who was a Jewish-Christian, the others were pagans and one was anti-christian) all agree on the Bible account that Jesus was the leader of the Christians, trialled by Pontius Pilate and later executed show the histrorical facts behind the gospels. Even the king of new atheism (Dawkins) admitted that Jesus existed.

Christ-mythers are hilarious and both religious and secular historians and scholars of The Bible disagree with their views (which constantly involve opinionated unsubstantiated claims and mentions of ancient eygptians gods which have been debunked time and time again).

There are many intelligent atheists who actually do have reasonable reason for why they are atheist (and who accept Thomas Jefferson's views on Jesus - that the miracles were exaggerated but Jesus existed and was a religious teacher). Denying Jesus existed though is normally the action of one who hasn't done their research and is normally said out of contempt for religion or because they disbelieve in the miracles and therefore think the rest is made up (even though there is evidence as I presented above).

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 05 novembre 2013 - 02:41 .

[Ieldra]

Perhaps we should relegate debate about real-world religious stuff with no connection to DA to off-topic. I like this thread and would dislike to see it closed.

[Reznore57]

The dwarves are a special case , and long ago David Gaider hinted there is a reason why they are cut from the fade.

The singing is very very intriguing , dwarves can hear lyrium sing.It seems other races do not.
Tainted people can hear a song from Archdemons.
And Spirits when they enter Thedas (Like Cole , Justice) hear lyirum sing...There is some lyrium vein in the Fade but If I remember correctly spirit don't hear it sing when they are in their realm.

Also everyone find the song "beautiful" , Justice , the wardens who talk about it , the Mother , ...
There is also"The Light" and "Darkness" that tends to come back in different things ...prophecies, religious text ,etc...

As for the Stone ,it is a mystery.
The dwarves worship it but not like one worship a God.They have Paragons for that.
There 's just one golem who said "the Stone lives beneath Orlais" but it's so vague....It could be anything.
I tend to think dwarves were simply golems who turn to flesh.

Also some informations about a time before the veil , and  mortals being" different."

Anyway , I find all that pretty fascinating , there are recurring events , themes in most of the different myth , pieces of lore etc...

Modifié par Reznore57, 05 novembre 2013 - 03:04 .

[TurretSyndrome]

Honestly don't care how Maker and the rest of the gods/demigods turn out to be. Apparently Inquisition will carry answers to most questions posed in the franchise so far, so I'll wait for that.

Gaider can tease on these things all he wants, but Inquisition will decide if I will retain any amount of interest in the lore. All this speculative talk and arguments are tiring.

[Estelindis]

Reznore57 wrote...

The dwarves are a special case , and long ago David Gaider hinted there is a reason why they are cut from the fade.

The singing is very very intriguing , dwarves can hear lyrium sing.It seems other races do not.
Tainted people can hear a song from Archdemons.
And Spirits when they enter Thedas (Like Cole , Justice) hear lyirum sing...There is some lyrium vein in the Fade but If I remember correctly spirit don't hear it sing when they are in their realm.

Also everyone find the song "beautiful" , Justice , the wardens who talk about it , the Mother , ...
There is also"The Light" and "Darkness" that tends to come back in different things ...prophecies, religious text ,etc...

I think that some codex entries have mentioned the belief that lyrium is left over primordial material from when the Maker created the universe.  Whether Old Gods were created by the Maker or are independent entities with their own basis for existence, maybe they could have a similar fundamental make-up: primal power, with the potential to be or do anything, connected to whatever magic is. 

Reznore57 wrote...

Anyway , I find all that pretty fascinating , there are recurring events , themes in most of the different myth , pieces of lore etc...

As do I.  I really look forward to learning more about these mysteries in future games.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

XD xand calls me a fundamentalist and elton john calls me a atheist.

Whatever happened to just telling someone they were wrong without attributing them to any ideology?

[Estelindis]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

XD xand calls me a fundamentalist and elton john calls me a atheist.

Whatever happened to just telling someone they were wrong without attributing them to any ideology?

I think it's a little disingenuous to call out people for using terms like these when you've taken part in the religious and ideological arguments yourself.  Few, if any, people here have been totally neutral.

Modifié par Estelindis, 05 novembre 2013 - 05:48 .

[DarthSliver]

I like the idea of there being an impostor maker, which could explain why the Circle of Magi is more of a prison than a place of learning for people who are gifted with magic. I think there should be a powerful Demon behind the Chantry and the Circle of Magi, with the Circles original intention being to corner the mages into accepting demon help. Only reason why that isnt quite the case when we play DA:O is because the Demon is cunning not to reveal itself. Which this explains why Leliana was frown on when she claimed to have seen the Maker in a dream.
I'd rather find that a power demon posing as the maker to be behind why the Chantry seems so corrupted than to find the Chantry is actually corrupted. But a Demon feeding on people's beliefs isnt such a far-fetched idea in itself and it could be the one behind the veil tearing. But it would be in a way to reveal the maker might being real without actually revealing, a powerful demon doing such a thing could lead to that there is some kind of hierarchy within the demons in the fade.

I also feel I need a reason to not destroy the Chantry, because as it is the Chantry needs to be destroyed and reformed

[Schneidend]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And, IMO, she was a deluded harlot having nightmares about and getting high with too much "magic"

I'd like to think that my Warden who became King outlawed the Chantry and the Circle.

Yeah, darned deluded harlot. Freeing slaves and making life better for virtually everybody around her besides the magisters.

That's an adorable thought, for many reasons.

1) You think that the King even has the power to do that.

2) You think that, even if you could, you wouldn't immediately have a massive uprising of the majority of your teryns. Fereldan custom is for the King to earn the fealty of his teryns, and they are under no actual obligation to serve you when you start acting like a lunatic. The Chantry and Templars you just abolished would no doubt lend their support to the teryns rebelling against you, as well. The Templars are an army, and once they get reinforcements from Orlais and the Free Marches, it'll be a much bigger army than yours.

3) You're so short-sighted as to think the people would welcome this age of enlightment of yours. First of all, you abolished the Circles, and thus just kicked a bunch of mages out of warm beds and regular meals in the tower and out onto the street. The freedom fighters are happy, for about five seconds, then they realize they suddenly have to find food and shelter in a world full of people who don't understand and fear them. Second, you made one of the most charitable, hope-bringing organizations in all of Thedas illegal. The peasantry is not going to be happy that you are discriminating against their religion and branded part of their support structure rebels. Good luck eating when all the farmers and their sons take up arms and join the Templars or the rebel teryns' armies.

[HiroVoid]

Schneidend wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And, IMO, she was a deluded harlot having nightmares about and getting high with too much "magic"

I'd like to think that my Warden who became King outlawed the Chantry and the Circle.

Yeah, darned deluded harlot. Freeing slaves and making life better for virtually everybody around her besides the magisters.

That's an adorable thought, for many reasons.

1) You think that the King even has the power to do that.

2) You think that, even if you could, you wouldn't immediately have a massive uprising of the majority of your teryns. Fereldan custom is for the King to earn the fealty of his teryns, and they are under no actual obligation to serve you when you start acting like a lunatic. The Chantry and Templars you just abolished would no doubt lend their support to the teryns rebelling against you, as well. The Templars are an army, and once they get reinforcements from Orlais and the Free Marches, it'll be a much bigger army than yours.

3) You're so short-sighted as to think the people would welcome this age of enlightment of yours. First of all, you abolished the Circles, and thus just kicked a bunch of mages out of warm beds and regular meals in the tower and out onto the street. The freedom fighters are happy, for about five seconds, then they realize they suddenly have to find food and shelter in a world full of people who don't understand and fear them. Second, you made one of the most charitable, hope-bringing organizations in all of Thedas illegal. The peasantry is not going to be happy that you are discriminating against their religion and branded part of their support structure rebels. Good luck eating when all the farmers and their sons take up arms and join the Templars or the rebel teryns' armies.

Easy.  No need to ruin players' power fantasies.

[Schneidend]

HiroVoid wrote...

Easy.  No need to ruin players' power fantasies.

Part of the problem with Bioware fans, and fans of WRPGs in general, is that too many of them like their power fantasies too much. Ruination is my gift to the video game industry.

[The Xand]

Reznore57 wrote...

The dwarves are a special case , and long ago David Gaider hinted there is a reason why they are cut from the fade.

Someone mentioned that it's possible they're advanced flesh golems created by the elves. Kind of like the Replicants in Stargate Atlantis I guess. Damned if I can remember who though, sorry!

Modifié par The Xand, 05 novembre 2013 - 07:05 .

[Afro_Explosion]

The Xand wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

The dwarves are a special case , and long ago David Gaider hinted there is a reason why they are cut from the fade.

Someone mentioned that it's possible they're advanced flesh golems created by the elves. Kind of like the Replicants in Stargate Atlantis I guess. Damned if I can remember who though, sorry!

Maybe they were actual stone  and somehow were made flesh and, becoming one with the stone means going back to the old dwarven race

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Estelindis wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

XD xand calls me a fundamentalist and elton john calls me a atheist.

Whatever happened to just telling someone they were wrong without attributing them to any ideology?

I think it's a little disingenuous to call out people for using terms like these when you've taken part in the religious and ideological arguments yourself.  Few, if any, people here have been totally neutral.

Fair enough, though I do selfishly feel I've been one of the most pigeonholed in these discussions.

[The Xand]

mx_keep13 wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

The dwarves are a special case , and long ago David Gaider hinted there is a reason why they are cut from the fade.

Someone
mentioned that it's possible they're advanced flesh golems created by
the elves. Kind of like the Replicants in Stargate Atlantis I guess.
Damned if I can remember who though, sorry!

Maybe
they were actual stone  and somehow were made flesh and, becoming one
with the stone means going back to the old dwarven race

That does make a lot of sense actually. In Guild Wars the ultimate goal and eventual form for dwarves was stone so if they ever got turned to flesh again they'd probably place some sort of religious significance upon stone and returning to it.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

XD xand calls me a fundamentalist and elton john calls me a atheist.

Whatever happened to just telling someone they were wrong without attributing them to any ideology?

I think it's a little disingenuous to call out people for using terms like these when you've taken part in the religious and ideological arguments yourself.  Few, if any, people here have been totally neutral.

Fair enough, though I do selfishly feel I've been one of the most pigeonholed in these discussions.

You do have a griffin for your avatar.

[Angrywolves]

I don't want the Maker as the villain .
It would be silly to want that imo.
Might as well make God the villain.
I think it's going to be Dumat anyway.
shrugs.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Angrywolves wrote...

I don't want the Maker as the villain .
It would be silly to want that imo.
Might as well make God the villain.

That is essentially what this would be, yes.

I think it's going to be Dumat anyway.
shrugs.

He's dead. And from the way The Ultimate Sacrifice is explained he can't come back.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Supposedly dead. His relics still seem to work in legacy, despite him being dead.

[Reznore57]

It was me with the golems =dwarves.Elves created golem (using their own souls I guess) to guard the idol , and those golem were turned to flesh , some escaped and well became dwarves , some don't and turned to Profane.

This post is quite nice :
http://social.biowar...4/index/8032708

Some interesting stuff from this link :

the game's internal workings sometimes refer to Profane as "rubble golems."

The Profane's codex.
We who are forgotten, remember,
We clawed at the rock until our fingers bled,
We cried out for justice, but were unheard,
Our children wept in hunger,
And so we feasted upon the gods.
Here we wait, in aeons of silence.
We few, we profane.

If you look into the game's data files you'll find the typical Deep
Roads trash is categorized under "dwv" clearly for "dwarven." Primeval
Thaig trash has a different internal label, "prf." While there are a
few so-called dwarven items in the prf trash, they're all marked as
"odd" or "strange" unlike dwarven items from the normal Deep Roads.

- First and foremost, an item found the thaig that first got me
suspicious. "Carved Ring of the Vhenadahl." Vhenadahl is the "tree of
the people" that you see in alienages.

- Another item you'll find in the thaig is a
pair of boots called "Ghillie Brogues." These are a real type of
footware. They originated in Scotland and Ireland and made of untanned
leather. Their distinguishing feature is that they have holes to drain
water out of them after the wearer goes through watery terrain such as a
bog. I doubt I need to tell you that there aren't many bogs several
miles underground.




Ethereal golem you fight in the DA2 quest haunted , related to the Idol

And if I remember correctly you found just one golem before entering the Primeval Thaig , but not inside.(I may be wrong , though^^)

Profane are also known as Rock Wraith Which are supposed to be corrupted dwarves rejected by the stone.

Modifié par Reznore57, 05 novembre 2013 - 11:45 .

[HurricaneGinger]

Why do people want the Maker as the antagonist?

People like to see gods **** things up. XD

[Angrywolves]

Supposedly dead is correct.
I think Dumat still lives and will be the antagonist , despite other players wanting the Maker , Flemeth, Morrigan, or even Leliana to be the villain so they can kill them.

[AlexanderCousland]

Rather not play Kratos again. Or would it be more like the film Immortals?
I would love a boss fight like THIS

Modifié par FreshIstay, 05 novembre 2013 - 11:55 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Supposedly dead. His relics still seem to work in legacy, despite him being dead.

I didn't think they drew power from him, though. I thought they were just enchanted items.