455 réponses à ce sujet

[zMataxa]

"Why do people want the maker as an antagonist?"

Perhaps to explore the concept that the maker is just a "wizard of oz behind the screen" occurence. 
An invention.  A codex invented by a group with political motivations.
Perhaps some people think there is another truth?  One that is different from what many in a society may think.
Did you know people used to think the earth was flat?  That was a simpler concept to disprove.

In the end, it makes for an interesting conversation.
Kinda volatile too.

PS.  At this rate, Bioware/EA are gonna have to have a separate forum for volatile religion and political discussions with a special terms of use.
Don't know how long one can skate around more in depth convos - when the story leads one back to it every time.

Modifié par zMataxa, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:01 .

[The Xand]

esper wrote...

I am not a creature of mystery per se... I just like the fact, that unlike virtual almost any other fantasy out there were religion is important, faith in dragon age is a matter of faith.

There is no mystery build up around the Chantry. At least no mystery that doesn't exist in real life when the question is about faith. It is a question only answered when dead.

There is a mystery around the darkspawn, but even that is not so big. And left open for multiple interpretations as it should be.

Relgion is an irritating element in fantasy because it is either absolutely true and every person who doesn't believe is kinda an idiot or it is false and every person who believe is a sucker tricked by some evil entity.

I don't want that. I want the religious debate in game to keep being a religous debate and not a question about who is an blind idiot/naive sucker.

It's not the real world and answers can be given, and anything would be infinitely more satisfying than throwing your hands up in the air and screaming "It's a mystery!"

Why even bother doing quests if you dislike conclusions?

In any case, it's been pointed out already that there can still be all that mystery even with an imposter Maker to dispose of.

We know with certainty that it's an entity that's trapped in the Black City and some influence in the real world and it would be an absurd slap in the face to never both addressing that, especially since they've spent two games building up to it. Chekhov's gun and all that.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Odd how you say you are
not the type of atheist I described, but somehow you take it as me
talking about you. Odder still that you somehow feel the need to defend a
position you do not share, as if it did apply to you somehow, when no
names were listed and no implication was made about you what so ever.

Even
stranger is your assumption that the only way a person could come to
this conclusion, or hold a belief that such people exist, is for them to
be psychotic religious fanatics. Almost as if you only have an
expectation for a certain type of person to disagree with you, and have
formulated a response only against that type of person.

You reveal more about yourself being offended, then by stating your actual opinion.

I just thought you were being rli rude tbqh.

Modifié par The Xand, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:00 .

[Dabrikishaw]

I want to fight the Maker because it has the potential to be a really great boss fight.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Sure you were.

Though something strange I'm wondering about is why people say the maker doesn't fit with dragon age's darker themes? In some of the darkest times in human history, people put their trust in various deities, superstitions, legends, and all manner of faith based beliefs.

Even today, when things are going really bad, people tend to try and reach out to something, whether it be a deity, family, friendship, science perhaps, luck, fate, or just plain turning to the belief that more bad things won't happen, in order to seek comfort from it and to not simply drown and get lost in all their sorrow or misery or terrible circumstance.

So I don't really see how people having faith in the maker doesn't match dark themes in a game with magic, ancient gods, and a metaphysical plain that is widely accepted and empirically embraced as existing.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Dabrikishaw wrote...

I want to fight the Maker because it has the potential to be a really great boss fight.

Will applaud your honesty, though I don't think it would be a good boss fight. I see too many quick time events and glowing spots you need to hit for damage.

[Vit246]

AREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!!

ZEUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS!!!

I WILL HAVE MY REVENGE

Modifié par Vit246, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:10 .

[Vit246]

Honestly I won't want the mystery of the Maker to ever be revealed. Unless its a really really good one.

[AresKeith]

If Bioware decides to do this, then The Maker should kill the PC in 5 secs, playing the Sephiroth theme from KH2

[The Xand]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Sure you were.

What I like best is how you keep making rude aggressive demeaning assumptions about people before anyone else does.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Though something strange I'm wondering about is why people say the maker doesn't fit with dragon age's darker themes? In some of the darkest times in human history, people put their trust in various deities, superstitions, legends, and all manner of faith based beliefs.

Even today, when things are going really bad, people tend to try and reach out to something, whether it be a deity, family, friendship, science perhaps, luck, fate, or just plain turning to the belief that more bad things won't happen, in order to seek comfort from it and to not simply drown and get lost in all their sorrow or misery or terrible circumstance.

So I don't really see how people having faith in the maker doesn't match dark themes in a game with magic, ancient gods, and a metaphysical plain that is widely accepted and empirically embraced as existing.

What a convoluted way of saying the Maker doesn't fit because he's a benevolent all powerful deity in a dark and dubious world.

[esper]

The Xand wrote...

esper wrote...

I am not a creature of mystery per se... I just like the fact, that unlike virtual almost any other fantasy out there were religion is important, faith in dragon age is a matter of faith.

There is no mystery build up around the Chantry. At least no mystery that doesn't exist in real life when the question is about faith. It is a question only answered when dead.

There is a mystery around the darkspawn, but even that is not so big. And left open for multiple interpretations as it should be.

Relgion is an irritating element in fantasy because it is either absolutely true and every person who doesn't believe is kinda an idiot or it is false and every person who believe is a sucker tricked by some evil entity.

I don't want that. I want the religious debate in game to keep being a religous debate and not a question about who is an blind idiot/naive sucker.

It's not the real world and answers can be given, and anything would be infinitely more satisfying than throwing your hands up in the air and screaming "It's a mystery!"

Why even bother doing quests if you dislike conclusions?

In any case, it's been pointed out already that there can still be all that mystery even with an imposter Maker to dispose of.

We know with certainty that it's an entity that's trapped in the Black City and some influence in the real world and it would be an absurd slap in the face to never both addressing that, especially since they've spent two games building up to it. Chekhov's gun and all that.

I don't dislike conclusions, but making religion real/unreal does nothing but dehumanize the conflict and making it outright trivial.

There is not answer to faith. That is the point. If we had definitive proof on what life is and where it comes from and on wherever we have souls or not we would not need faith and we would get SMT which are fantastic games, but a totally different story from dragon age.

Faith is a question of believing in something that can't be proven, the mysterious surrunding the Chantry is not a murder mystery to be solved. It is the mystery surronding every question to which an answer can never be gained. Make a deity real/unreal makes the whole exercise pointless and a question of who is the greatest sucker.

And we no nothing with certainty of the black city. Not even that there is an entity trapped there. The only one who has been there pt. was Corypheus and his answers was so vague that we can't even prove if the city was black/golden before he arrived. What was inside it never came up.

[zMataxa]

AresKeith wrote...

If Bioware decides to do this, then The Maker should kill the PC in 5 secs, playing the Sephiroth theme from KH2

______________

Maybe Bioware needs two switches in the game at the beginning.
Your life belief system:
(1) Free will subject to some deity. 
(2) Free will rules and nothing is imposible with time and resources and a plan.
And accordingly, the game plays out.

I'm gonna choose option 2.

Modifié par zMataxa, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:24 .

[esper]

The Xand wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Sure you were.

What I like best is how you keep making rude aggressive demeaning assumptions about people before anyone else does.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Though something strange I'm wondering about is why people say the maker doesn't fit with dragon age's darker themes? In some of the darkest times in human history, people put their trust in various deities, superstitions, legends, and all manner of faith based beliefs.

Even today, when things are going really bad, people tend to try and reach out to something, whether it be a deity, family, friendship, science perhaps, luck, fate, or just plain turning to the belief that more bad things won't happen, in order to seek comfort from it and to not simply drown and get lost in all their sorrow or misery or terrible circumstance.

So I don't really see how people having faith in the maker doesn't match dark themes in a game with magic, ancient gods, and a metaphysical plain that is widely accepted and empirically embraced as existing.

What a convoluted way of saying the Maker doesn't fit because he's a benevolent all powerful deity in a dark and dubious world.

The Maker as described by the Chantry is neglecting at best and malevolent at worst. Benevolent is he not.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Xand wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Sure you were.

What I like best is how you keep making rude aggressive demeaning assumptions about people before anyone else does.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Though something strange I'm wondering about is why people say the maker doesn't fit with dragon age's darker themes? In some of the darkest times in human history, people put their trust in various deities, superstitions, legends, and all manner of faith based beliefs.

Even today, when things are going really bad, people tend to try and reach out to something, whether it be a deity, family, friendship, science perhaps, luck, fate, or just plain turning to the belief that more bad things won't happen, in order to seek comfort from it and to not simply drown and get lost in all their sorrow or misery or terrible circumstance.

So I don't really see how people having faith in the maker doesn't match dark themes in a game with magic, ancient gods, and a metaphysical plain that is widely accepted and empirically embraced as existing.

What a convoluted way of saying the Maker doesn't fit because he's a benevolent all powerful deity in a dark and dubious world.

So because people, in this dark and dubious world, believe that there is a benevolent and all powerful deity, it doesn't fit the story?

What exactly is being argued here? The removal of all mentions of the maker or reference to people believing in a higher power? That the maker should be proven undoubtedly false in the game somehow so everyone stops believing in andrastian religion? For the maker to not ever be shown, and only used as a vague idea in the setting that people put their faith in, whether it be right or wrong to do so(what in my opinion is the optimal option)?

What is it?

And more strange, where in my post was saying the maker doesn't fit in dragon age? If anything, I was arguing the opposite.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:19 .

[Afro_Explosion]

Xand I think you read it wrong, and the maker isn't a benevolent diety all the time, hes like god in the preacher comics flawed but not evil

[The Xand]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

So because people, in this dark and dubious world, believe that there is a benevolent and all powerful deity, it doesn't fit the story?

What exactly is being argued here? The removal of all mentions of the maker or reference to people believing in a higher power? That the maker should be proven undoubtedly false in the game somehow so everyone stops believing in andrastian religion? For the maker to not ever be shown, and only used as a vague idea in the setting that people put their faith in, whether it be right or wrong to do so(what in my opinion is the optimal option)?

What is it?

And more strange, where in my post was saying the maker doesn't fit in dragon age? If anything, I was arguing the opposite.

Jesus, enough with the militant fundie act already. Yes yes, you hate atheists. We get it. Change the story already.

The Maker doesn't fit into Dragon Age because it's just so...boring. Totally unfulfilling. If he was a wrathful Old Testament god maybe. As is, it's going to be interesting finding out more about the Black City and the Maker's *true* nature. Best of all you could still have your boring creator god if that specific Maker from the Chantry turned out to be evil.

mx_keep13 wrote...

Xand I think you read it wrong, and the
maker isn't a benevolent diety all the time, hes like god in the
preacher comics flawed but not evil

I'd be totally down with that actually. Even if it's just a tired lonely old man in a citadel somewhere. The symbolism alone would make it worthwhile.

Modifié par The Xand, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:39 .

[Laughing_Man]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

You reveal more about yourself being offended, then by stating your actual opinion.

You are aware that you just described your own responses in this thread, right?

Your rethoric is a double-edged sword, you were the one who made an assumption and ran forward full of rightous anger to denounce those who think differently than you, based on what they want to see in a fantasy world.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:34 .

[Dabrikishaw]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Dabrikishaw wrote...

I want to fight the Maker because it has the potential to be a really great boss fight.

Will applaud your honesty, though I don't think it would be a good boss fight. I see too many quick time events and glowing spots you need to hit for damage.

If previous boss fights in Dragon Age are anything, they are quick time event free. Even Dragon Age ][ with it's "awesome button" nonsense never used quick time events in boss fights.

[Vulpe]

 It would be so much  easier if people could disconnect themselves from the real world when it comes to the fantasy ones. In some fantasy worlds gods are real for certain, in others there are no gods ( just godlike figures) and in others it's more ambiguous.
It all depends on the way the writer wants to play his cards. Now let's try to be more tolerant and open minded, regardless of  our beliefs. I promise it won't hurt.

Back on topic :

Maybe some people want to go through a epic greek legend-like adventure, where gods and mortals work together or against each other to accomplish/prevent a certain thing.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:43 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Xand wrote...

Jesus, enough with the militant fundie act already. Yes yes, you hate atheists. We get it. Change the story already.

The
Maker doesn't fit into Dragon Age because it's just so...boring.
Totally unfulfilling. If he was a wrathful Old Testament god maybe. As
is, it's going to be interesting finding out more about the Black City
and the Maker's *true* nature. Best of all you could still have your
boring creator god if that specific Maker from the Chantry turned out to
be evil.

It seems the only person you can handle opposing you is a "militant fundie", since nothing I;ve said would be considered militant nor fundamentalist, and yet that's all you seem capable of arguing or going on.

Maybe you need to have a wake up call, and realize there are many more sides then just atheist douche ****posters and christian bible fornicating jackoffs.

And you haven't answered a single question, you just went off on a, probably intentionally, provocative rant sentence to try and distract from the issue. You find the maker boring, that's fine. Personally I find the entire concept of lyrium boring, since it's a deus ex machina material that can apparently do anything from turning people into vulcans to being an explosive to turning dust into healing powder and giving people the power to launch white spirit fire at enemies. It can do anything, therefore there's no investment in researching it further since it'll just do whatever the plot wants it to do, rules and reason be damned.

At least the maker provides an interesting look into faith, what it is, if it's good or not, and provides a actual interesting delima and viewpoint. If that's not for you, it's not for you, but belief in the maker is hardly something I see as being a giant elephant in the room of dragon ages lore. Considering what little we know of andraste, and what even less we know of "the maker" if one even exist, I'd say it feels rather well.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:41 .

[The Xand]

esper wrote...

The Maker as described by the Chantry is neglecting at best and malevolent at worst. Benevolent is he not.

You make him sound far more interesting than he is.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Xand wrote...

mx_keep13 wrote...

Xand I think you read it wrong, and the
maker isn't a benevolent diety all the time, hes like god in the
preacher comics flawed but not evil

I'd be totally down with that actually. Even if it's just a tired lonely old man in a citadel somewhere. The symbolism alone would make it worthwhile.

Trust me, it really wouldn't. If mass effect 3 can teach anyone anything, it's that something that relies more on symbolism then substance won't work. And your idea just screams "Less logic, more symbolism! Audiences will love it."

[The Xand]

esper wrote...

I don't dislike conclusions, but making religion real/unreal does nothing but dehumanize the conflict and making it outright trivial.

There is not answer to faith. That is the point. If we had definitive proof on what life is and where it comes from and on wherever we have souls or not we would not need faith and we would get SMT which are fantastic games, but a totally different story from dragon age.

Faith is a question of believing in something that can't be proven, the mysterious surrunding the Chantry is not a murder mystery to be solved. It is the mystery surronding every question to which an answer can never be gained. Make a deity real/unreal makes the whole exercise pointless and a question of who is the greatest sucker.

And we no nothing with certainty of the black city. Not even that there is an entity trapped there. The only one who has been there pt. was Corypheus and his answers was so vague that we can't even prove if the city was black/golden before he arrived. What was inside it never came up.

Boring. Why should the gods of that world be high and mighty, vast and inalienable creatures when they should be down and dirty like the rest of Dragon Age? They brought low the immortal elves, why not spin an interesting take on the gods too? Your way is just a cheap way of doing nothing at all, utterly uncreative and devoid of character.

[Vilegrim]

FreshIstay wrote...

This is too easy OP.
Some people are so against any type of "God" they want to kill him in the name of Atheism and Hypocrisy.

what hypocrisy?  I don't care if the maker is 'real' or not, the Chantry is almost as damaging as the darkspawn, and deserves the same treatment.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:55 .

[Thomas Andresen]

There are some ambiguous aspects of the Dragon Age lore, that I feel should stay ambiguous. The truth about the Maker is one of them.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Xand wrote...

esper wrote...

The Maker as described by the Chantry is neglecting at best and malevolent at worst. Benevolent is he not.

You make him sound far more interesting than he is.

On that I'll agree. The maker is there to provide a faith conundrum, that being whether a person having faith is wrong for having faith in something so vague and non-explained. There isn't much evidence to support the maker's exsistence, even with the black city being real and the magisters going there. People don't know what happened, heck, people don't even know much about andraste, whose the center of the entire religion.

What the concept of a maker does in the dragon age universe, with the chantry and the circles and andrastian beliefs, and cults, and different interpretations, and opposition beliefs. What it allows is much more interesting then the maker just by itself.