455 réponses à ce sujet

[The Xand]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

It seems the only person you can handle opposing you is a "militant fundie", since nothing I;ve said would be considered militant nor fundamentalist, and yet that's all you seem capable of arguing or going on.

Maybe you need to have a wake up call, and realize there are many more sides then just atheist douche ****posters and christian bible fornicating jackoffs.

That's not angry at all.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

And you haven't answered a single question, you just went off on a, probably intentionally, provocative rant sentence to try and distract from the issue. You find the maker boring, that's fine. Personally I find the entire concept of lyrium boring, since it's a deus ex machina material that can apparently do anything from turning people into vulcans to being an explosive to turning dust into healing powder and giving people the power to launch white spirit fire at enemies. It can do anything, therefore there's no investment in researching it further since it'll just do whatever the plot wants it to do, rules and reason be damned.

Ofc you don't like magic. It's against your religion.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

At least the maker provides an interesting look into faith, what it is, if it's good or not, and provides a actual interesting delima and viewpoint. If that's not for you, it's not for you, but belief in the maker is hardly something I see as being a giant elephant in the room of dragon ages lore. Considering what little we know of andraste, and what even less we know of "the maker" if one even exist, I'd say it feels rather well.

No, it doesn't. The Maker is a jarring contradiction of all of the core tenets of the Dragon Age world. It's just an uninteresting and uncreative transplant of the Abrahamic god, sans all the interesting stories.

The Chantry however functions exactly as you descibed.

Thomas Andresen wrote...

There are some ambiguous aspects of the Dragon Age lore, that I feel should stay ambiguous. The truth about the Maker is one of them.

The only thing worse in stories than a deus ex machina is a deliberately unanswered cliffhanger to fake an air of mystery. Even Lovecraft didn't do that.

Modifié par The Xand, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:53 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

So not liking a plot magic item that doesn't seem to have any sort of rules to it besides "Unless you're a short hairy grounddweller or a emotionless ex-mage, you'll die touching this stuff. Oh, but drinking it is less dangerous then touching it, so do it and get super powers". Means I'm against all magic, and for religious reasons to boot.

Do you ever get tired of being such a ****, Xand? Seems like it would get boring after a while.

So what is this jarring condradiction that the concept of the maker, being a source of faith in dragon age, is to you? Where in the dragon age lore does it state, "And lo, did the devs decree, there shall be no such thing as people who believe in a singular deity and think it is responsible for everything, say for this huge asterisk we're calling the maker"?

I want to know what makes the maker so much of a strech, but the old gods who get turned into archedemon dragons after thousands of years in the ground being something that is a-okay?

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:58 .

[zMataxa]

FreshIstay wrote...

This is too easy OP.
Some people are so against any type of "God" they want to kill him in the name of Atheism and Hypocrisy.

__________________

"Some people" can be more extreme.
MANY MORE are more open and middle of the road and quite often do not comment.
It would be more balanced to factor them in as well.

Modifié par zMataxa, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:56 .

[The Xand]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

On that I'll agree. The maker is there to provide a faith conundrum, that being whether a person having faith is wrong for having faith in something so vague and non-explained. There isn't much evidence to support the maker's exsistence, even with the black city being real and the magisters going there. People don't know what happened, heck, people don't even know much about andraste, whose the center of the entire religion.

What the concept of a maker does in the dragon age universe, with the chantry and the circles and andrastian beliefs, and cults, and different interpretations, and opposition beliefs. What it allows is much more interesting then the maker just by itself.

Which is why the issue needs to be addressed in a creative manner.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

So not liking a plot magic
item that doesn't seem to have any sort of rules to it besides "Unless
you're a short hairy grounddweller or a emotionless ex-mage, you'll die
touching this stuff. Oh, but drinking it is less dangerous then touching
it, so do it and get super powers". Means I'm against all magic, and
for religious reasons to boot.

But it does have rules and limits. That's why the stuff needs to be filtered and purified before it can even be handled and even then it doesn't do much more than refill a mage's mana. The red lyrium is much more powerful but all that really did was let you jump around like a flea and do typical magey stuff.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...
Do you ever get tired of being such a ****, Xand? Seems like it would get boring after a while.

Never.

Modifié par The Xand, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:58 .

[Br3admax]

So what you are saying is that it should be revealed, because in life everything is made crystal clear and revealed to you? And then you just have to fight them when they are revealed? Of all things, I think that religion and religious figures are the exact opposite to both of those. You don't have to confirm a god and you most definitely do not have to fight them, for a story to make sense. If anything, going into that territory makes the game make less sense, not more.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Xand wrote...


But it does have rules and limits. That's why the stuff needs to be filtered and purified before it can even be handled and even then it doesn't do much more than refill a mage's mana. The red lyrium is much more powerful but all that really did was let you jump around like a flea and do typical magey stuff.

When a single thing can do so many different thing, all of them widely different and for no real explained reason, that's a plot device.

It would be the same as having a element called unexsistium(unobtanium already taken), which can burn hoter then the sun if shaken, give you ice powers when mixed with green tea, and can't be handled by anyone except short people and guys with lobotomies, and is especially deadly to atheletes, except if mixed with kale in which it becomes a super steroid. Oh, and it's also somehow linked to travelling to the twilight zone, and has a crazy off color version that does completely different things all together.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:04 .

[Vulpe]

The Xand wrote...

Ofc you don't like magic. It's against your religion.

Let's not assume that every christian fan of DA is unable to separate the real world from the magic, Thedas world. Many  enjoy the concepts and ideeas that BW created regarding it. Just because magic is viewed as it is by christianity, that doesn't mean that we can't enjoy a fantasy setting with loots of magic - be it a video game, a book or a movie.

You guys should stop your tantrum, take a deep breath and try to have a civilized polemic before you seriously offend the religious or nonreligious part of the community and before you get this post locked.

[The Xand]

Br3ad wrote...

So what you are saying is that it should be revealed, because in life everything is made crystal clear and revealed to you? And then you just have to fight them when they are revealed? Of all things, I think that religion and religious figures are the exact opposite to both of those. You don't have to confirm a god and you most definitely do not have to fight them, for a story to make sense. If anything, going into that territory makes the game make less sense, not more.

Depends which religion and gods you mean. It would make perfect sense if we were talking of Celtic gods, because their religion wasn't hampered by trying to make their gods as distant as possible and infused them with much more human aspects.

Again, it doesn't fit the Dragon Age lore, where everything is brought down and dirty. They even took Jesus and turned him into Joan of Arc.

JulianWellpit wrote...

Let's not assume that every
christian fan of DA is unable to separate the real world from the magic,
Thedas world. Many  enjoy the concepts and ideeas that BW created
regarding it. Just because magic is viewed as it is by christianity,
that doesn't mean that we can't enjoy a fantasy setting with loots of
magic - be it a video game, a book or a movie.

You guys should
stop your tantrum, take a deep breath and try to have a
civilized polemic before you seriously offend the religious or
nonreligious part of the community and before you get this post locked.

You're quite right. That was a cheap shot poorly thought out and I apologise for it.

I'm just vexed that just because the Maker shares some similarities to the Christian god some people think that he should be treated with the same degree of sanctity, which effectively neuters any creative direction the Maker could be taken in the Dragon Age story.

Modifié par The Xand, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:11 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

I do find it funny that it's assumed because I take a stance someone doesn't agree with and uses hyperbole to make a funny observation, I as an agnostic aren't a real agnostic, but a crazy bible kisser praising Ji-Sauce and hating fantasy.

@mx_keep13, this thread will go on topic when all the starbucks freeze over. There is no such thing as on topic on the BSN.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[Afro_Explosion]

JulianWellpit wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Ofc you don't like magic. It's against your religion.

Let's not assume that every christian fan of DA is unable to separate the real world from the magic, Thedas world. Many  enjoy the concepts and ideeas that BW created regarding it. Just because magic is viewed as it is by christianity, that doesn't mean that we can't enjoy a fantasy setting with loots of magic - be it a video game, a book or a movie.

You guys should stop your tantrum, take a deep breath and try to have a civilized polemic before you seriously offend the religious or nonreligious part of the community and before you get this post locked.

Your right we need go stay calm and on topic

[zMataxa]

Br3ad wrote...

So what you are saying is that it should be revealed, because in life everything is made crystal clear and revealed to you? And then you just have to fight them when they are revealed? Of all things, I think that religion and religious figures are the exact opposite to both of those. You don't have to confirm a god and you most definitely do not have to fight them, for a story to make sense.

_____
True.  You don't have to confirm deities inorder for a story to make sense.

Br3ad wrote...
If anything, going into that territory makes the game make less sense, not more.

________

On this, I don't agree.
For some people, that's the ONLY path to the truth.
And, For others it is not.

Modifié par zMataxa, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[Br3admax]

The Xand wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

So what you are saying is that it should be revealed, because in life everything is made crystal clear and revealed to you? And then you just have to fight them when they are revealed? Of all things, I think that religion and religious figures are the exact opposite to both of those. You don't have to confirm a god and you most definitely do not have to fight them, for a story to make sense. If anything, going into that territory makes the game make less sense, not more.

Depends which religion and gods you mean. It would make perfect sense if we were talking of Celtic gods, because their religion wasn't hampered by trying to make their gods as distant and boring as possible.

No, it really doesn't.

Again, it doesn't fit the Dragon Age lore, where everything is brought down and dirty. They even took Jesus and turned him into Joan of Arc.

No, they really didn't. 

This is just you putting your own personal opinions and problems on to the DA lore trying to fill the hole in understanding in logic that you think religion is. Take a step back, and realise that the lore is not made for you to understand anything. Pretty much nothing has been explained. 

[The Xand]

Br3ad wrote...
No, they really didn't.

This is just you putting your own personal opinions and problems on to the DA lore trying to fill the hole in understanding in logic that you think religion is. Take a step back, and realise that the lore is not made for you to understand anything. Pretty much nothing has been explained. 

No, srsly. David Gaider said that Andraste was Jesus crossed with Joan of Arc.

Modifié par The Xand, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:13 .

[Br3admax]

zMataxa wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
If anything, going into that territory makes the game make less sense, not more.

________

On this, I don't agree.
For some people, that's the ONLY path to the truth.
And, For others it is not.

For some people, *cough*BioWare*cough,* such writing is currently beyond their understanding. So I'm pretty confident that this will only make less and less sense the deeper they go into it. Look what happened with Alistair, the Therin bloodline, and dragons. That was only three spin-off comic series. 

[Br3admax]

The Xand wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

This is just you putting your own personal opinions and problems on to the DA lore trying to fill the hole in understanding in logic that you think religion is. Take a step back, and realise that the lore is not made for you to understand anything. Pretty much nothing has been explained. 

No, srsly. David Gaider said that Andraste was Jesus crossed with Joan of Arc.

Jesus crossed with Joan of Arc, does not mean Jesus turned into Joan of Arc, not to mention that Andraste has almost nothing in common with Jesus in the slightest. This is really just something to make it simple for the fans. It's not anything definite. 

[The Xand]

Br3ad wrote...

For some people, *cough*BioWare*cough,* such writing is currently beyond their understanding. So I'm pretty confident that this will only make less and less sense the deeper they go into it. Look what happened with Alistair, the Therin bloodline, and dragons. That was only three spin-off comic series. 

What happened with Alistair? Him becoming king was a great thing and I'm glad they didn't fanny around trying to keep everyone happy because that would have neutered their ability to tell a good story. Quite enjoyed those comics personally.

Br3ad wrote...

Jesus crossed with Joan of Arc, does not mean Jesus turned into Joan of Arc, not to mention that Andraste has
almost nothing in common with Jesus in the slightest. This is really just something to make it simple for the fans. It's not anything definite. 

Stop being obtuse. Andraste is Jesus/Joan of Arc. Then they turned her ashes into the Holy Grail.

Modifié par The Xand, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:18 .

[Afro_Explosion]

This threads going to get locked soon they have assumed direct control of this topic

[The Flying Grey Warden]

mx_keep13 wrote...

This threads going to get locked soon they have assumed direct control of this topic

It was inenvitable, this topic was always doomed to devolve into an argument.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:21 .

[zMataxa]

Br3ad wrote...

zMataxa wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
If anything, going into that territory makes the game make less sense, not more.

________

On this, I don't agree.
For some people, that's the ONLY path to the truth.
And, For others it is not.

For some people, *cough*BioWare*cough,* such writing is currently beyond their understanding. So I'm pretty confident that this will only make less and less sense the deeper they go into it. Look what happened with Alistair, the Therin bloodline, and dragons. That was only three spin-off comic series. 

______________

Haha...PERHAPS...Bioware is just stringing out the story in a way - that over time pieces will fall in place and there will be "Holy ****" reactions.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

I don't think jesus ever led an army of hebrews and barbarians all the way to rome to stop their wizard aristocracy from oppressing them. I might have actually gone to church as a kid if that were the case, or cared, since it would be a lot more interesting to hear.

As it stands the maker has only the vaguest of comparisons to the abrahamic god. It's a he, it's supposedly the creater of the world, it suppoesdly talked to a person and told them to do stuff, it supposedly isn't part of our world anymore. The circumstances though are all wrong, along with even the way the maker acts.

Maker never seemed to smite anyone before talking to andraste, it only talked to her, took her as it's bride(which still sounds like kina bad fanfiction but whatever, it's mythology and not high art), and then left because it got bummed she died.

Really, really different from the actual god, at least I think anyway. I'm pretty sure god talked to at least 4 people and not just jesus, and I really don';t want to think about jesus being god's booty call.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:26 .

[The Xand]

zMataxa wrote...
______________

Haha...PERHAPS...Bioware is just stringing out the story in a way - that over time pieces will fall in place and there will be "Holy ****" reactions.

Reading between the lines, that's what I expect is going to happen. No matter what they do I'll love it. Finally get some closure on the mystery of the Maker. I personally think he's evil.

[Br3admax]

The Xand wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

For some people, *cough*BioWare*cough,* such writing is currently beyond their understanding. So I'm pretty confident that this will only make less and less sense the deeper they go into it. Look what happened with Alistair, the Therin bloodline, and dragons. That was only three spin-off comic series. 

What happened with Alistair? Him becoming king was a great thing and I'm glad they didn't fanny around trying to keep everyone happy because that would have neutered their ability to tell a good story. Quite enjoyed those comics personally.

Not what I mean at all. You only commented on one portion, Alistair's name. and ignored all of the rest of it. 

Br3ad wrote...

Jesus crossed with Joan of Arc, does not mean Jesus turned into Joan of Arc, not to mention that Andraste has
almost nothing in common with Jesus in the slightest. This is really just something to make it simple for the fans. It's not anything definite. 

Stop being obtuse. Andraste is Jesus/Joan of Arc. Then they turned her ashes into the Holy Grail.

Grasp at straws all you want. Jesus is not "God's Bride" or "Chosen One," Andraste is something else in her own right and just becasue she borrows things from people in history, it does not make her those people in history. Just as Calenhad is not just King Arthur, the Qunari are not just the Ottomans, and Tevinter is not just Byzantium. Thedas is not Europe copy and pasted onto a Blu-Ray. It's still it's own unique setting with unique characters. 

[Afro_Explosion]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I don't think jesus ever led an army of hebrews and barbarians all the way to rome to stop their wizard aristocracy from oppressing them. I might have actually gone to church as a kid if that were the case, since it would be a lot more interesting to hear.

I swear there was a book where jesus got off the cross, and he and the apostles kiled eveyone and made a dictatorship

Modifié par mx_keep13, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:26 .

[The Xand]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I don't think jesus ever led an army of hebrews and barbarians all the way to rome to stop their wizard aristocracy from oppressing them. I might have actually gone to church as a kid if that were the case, since it would be a lot more interesting to hear.

That's probably why he got crucified.

He should have been more like this.

[The Xand]

Br3ad wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

For some people, *cough*BioWare*cough,* such writing is currently beyond their understanding. So I'm pretty confident that this will only make less and less sense the deeper they go into it. Look what happened with Alistair, the Therin bloodline, and dragons. That was only three spin-off comic series. 

What happened with Alistair? Him becoming king was a great thing and I'm glad they didn't fanny around trying to keep everyone happy because that would have neutered their ability to tell a good story. Quite enjoyed those comics personally.

Not what I mean at all. You only commented on one portion, Alistair's name. and ignored all of the rest of it. 

Br3ad wrote...

Jesus crossed with Joan of Arc, does not mean Jesus turned into Joan of Arc, not to mention that Andraste has
almost nothing in common with Jesus in the slightest. This is really just something to make it simple for the fans. It's not anything definite. 

Stop being obtuse. Andraste is Jesus/Joan of Arc. Then they turned her ashes into the Holy Grail.

Grasp at straws all you want. Jesus is not "God's Bride" or "Chosen One," Andraste is something else in her own right and just becasue she borrows things from people in history, it does not make her those people in history. Just as Calenhad is not just King Arthur, the Qunari are not just the Ottomans, and Tevinter is not just Byzantium. Thedas is not Europe copy and pasted onto a Blu-Ray. It's still it's own unique setting with unique characters. 

So you don't deny that Andraste's primary influences are Jesus and Joan of Arc?

I only commented on Alistair because there wasn't much else to say about the rest. King Calenhad/Arthur drank the blood of dragons and made himself and his line stronger. You got to do that in DA: Origins.