538 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

I finally did it.

It took me two and a half years to bring myself to side with Meredith at the end of DA2. I've played many Hawkes and made many different decisions, including siding with the templars every single time before the end, and could rationalize almost all of them from the perspective of the Hawke I'd been playing. The one thing I never did, because it just felt evil to me, was to follow Meredith when she invoked the Annulment.

This time I did. I had never watched how this played out on YT, so I didn't know how things would go. Guess what? It was every bit as evil as I imagined it would be.

I mean, yes, I tend towards being pro-mage, but while I don't share the templar position, I understand it. Enough that I can roleplay a templar-friendly Hawke until the end of DA2 with no problem. But going along with this genocidal act, killing a whole Circle for the actions of a few, most of them happening outside a Circle, I feel tainted. I understand the desire to kill Orsino, even before he turns into the Harvester, but you only get that scene where he admits to having known Quentin after the decision about the Annulment has already been made. I find myself unable to let that playthrough exist and I'll reload it and change my decision again.

So here, my question: how can anyone who doesn't play an evil Hawke justify siding with Meredith at the end? I do wish to see the consequences of that in DAI, but I guess I'm glad we'll have the DA Keep and I don't have to play it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:49 .

[Potato Cat]

My mage Hawke sided with her to save the reputation of mages. The public are not going to blame Anders for the destruction, they are going to blame mages as a whole. To have a mage help her, there could still be some semblance of peace.

[thats1evildude]

Prepare for 14 pages of debate going around in circles.

Here's what it comes down to:

1) The templars are more likely to win.

2) Kirkwall's Circle is hopelessly corrupt and we cannot allow these blood mages to go free and wreak havoc.

3) Hawke recognizes s/he needs the support of the templars to become viscount.

[Karlone123]

Depends on my Hawkes beliefs.

[jtav]

Meredith is right for the wrong reason. Every other Circle mage is a blood mage consorting with demons. A great number are abominations. I am sick to death of dealing with them.

[Ieldra]

thats1evildude wrote...
Prepare for 14 pages of debate going around in circles.

Here's what it comes down to:

1) The templars are more likely to win.

2) Kirkwall's Circle is hopelessly corrupt and we cannot allow these blood mages to go free and wreak havoc.

3) Hawke recognizes s/he needs the support of the templars to become viscount.

I said "without playing an evil Hawke". 1 and 3 are clear-cut evil and 2 violates every principle of justice in such a way that it amounts to the same.

I wonder how many killed Bethany. If you don't, you're a hypocrite on top of being a genocidal mass-murderer. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:09 .

[Wulfram]

Shouldn't this be on the DA2 forum?

My Templar siding Hawke sided with the Templars on the grounds that it was the best way to limit casualties.  Since they were liable to win anyway.  And also they were worried as to the consequences if the Mages did win.  I can't say I agree with them, but I don't think they're evil.

(Bethany was a Warden)

Modifié par Wulfram, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:10 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Because Hawke could believe that the mages winning would cause more casualties in the long run. Meredith's choice to annul the Circle may not have been the right choice, but one could easily believe that helping her do it would avoid excess collateral damage that might come with the alternative.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:13 .

[jtav]

2 comes down to "has the threshold for the ROA been met?" I say there's an argument for it, given the sheer number of abominations I've dealt with by the time of The Last Straw, though I ultimately say the ROA was unjustified here.

[Vilegrim]

Ieldra2 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...
Prepare for 14 pages of debate going around in circles.

Here's what it comes down to:

1) The templars are more likely to win.

2) Kirkwall's Circle is hopelessly corrupt and we cannot allow these blood mages to go free and wreak havoc.

3) Hawke recognizes s/he needs the support of the templars to become viscount.

I said "without playing an evil Hawke". 1 and 3 are clear-cut evil and 2 violates every principle of justice in such a way that it amounts to the same.

I wonder how many killed Bethany. If you don't, you're a hypocrite on top of being a genocidal mass-murderer. 

1) is pragmatic not evil,

2) has a point every mage we meet is a blood mage in the city...

3) pragmatism, and realpolitik, not evil.

[dragonflight288]

jtav wrote...

2 comes down to "has the threshold for the ROA been met?" I say there's an argument for it, given the sheer number of abominations I've dealt with by the time of The Last Straw, though I ultimately say the ROA was unjustified here.

No it doesn't. Annulment calls for the complete destruction of every single man, woman and child. Bethany included. If she or any others still live, they have to be made tranquil or it's not an Annulmen.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well because if we have to pick between two psychos why just don't throw coin or just pick randomly and say "why not?"?

[Ieldra]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Well because if we have to pick between two psychos why just don't throw coin or just pick randomly and say "why not?"?

The difference is, one option supports killing a lot of innocents along with the abominations, and the other supports killing those who would kill those innocents, while getting rid of the abominations as well. I guess there are people who don't have a problem justifying the former, but if Bioware wanted a reasonably balanced decision they did a bad job.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:29 .

[BlueMagitek]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I said "without playing an evil Hawke". 1 and 3 are clear-cut evil and 2 violates every principle of justice in such a way that it amounts to the same.

I wonder how many killed Bethany. If you don't, you're a hypocrite on top of being a genocidal mass-murderer. 

1 really isn't evil though, just pragmatic.  The sooner the fighting stops, the better, and the Templar are not only more likely to win, but organized as a military unit and can restore order faster.  Remember, you're Champion of Kirkwall.

[Mr.House]

Because Orsino is clearly hiding something and my Hawke cares more about her friends and the city then mages, just because she's a mage does not mean she needs to feel sorry for the Kirkwall circle which is corrupt to hell. The quicker this mess clears, the quicker the city can return to safety and everyone can get to work to clean up the mess.

Mereidth while crazy never hides anything or lied unlike that coward Orsino.

Modifié par Mr.House, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:35 .

[Br3admax]

Mr.House wrote...

Because Orsino is clearly hiding something and my Hawke cares more about her friends and the city then mages, just because she's a mage does not mean she needs to feel sorry for the Kirkwall circle which is corrupt to hell. The quicker this mess clears, the quicker the city can trturn to safety and everyoen can get to work to clean up the mess.

Mereidth while crazy never hides anything or lied unlike that coward Orsino.

Pretty much this. Siding with the mages is idiotic at best. Also, siding with the Templars makes the ending make a lot more sense. 

[AresKeith]

Br3ad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Because Orsino is clearly hiding something and my Hawke cares more about her friends and the city then mages, just because she's a mage does not mean she needs to feel sorry for the Kirkwall circle which is corrupt to hell. The quicker this mess clears, the quicker the city can trturn to safety and everyoen can get to work to clean up the mess.

Mereidth while crazy never hides anything or lied unlike that coward Orsino.

Pretty much this. Siding with the mages is idiotic at best. Also, siding with the Templars makes the ending make a lot more sense. 

Well the neutral option that was taken out the game, makes the ending make a lot more sense

But the Templars came second 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Was there ever a neutral option?

[Br3admax]

AresKeith wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Because Orsino is clearly hiding something and my Hawke cares more about her friends and the city then mages, just because she's a mage does not mean she needs to feel sorry for the Kirkwall circle which is corrupt to hell. The quicker this mess clears, the quicker the city can trturn to safety and everyoen can get to work to clean up the mess.

Mereidth while crazy never hides anything or lied unlike that coward Orsino.

Pretty much this. Siding with the mages is idiotic at best. Also, siding with the Templars makes the ending make a lot more sense. 

Well the neutral option that was taken out the game, makes the ending make a lot more sense

But the Templars came second 

"No, you must choose, now!"

"Uh, no I don't. I'm going back to Fereldan now. Good luck guys." 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...
Well because if we have to pick between two psychos why just don't throw coin or just pick randomly and say "why not?"?

The difference is, one option supports killing a lot of innocents along with the abominations, and the other supports killing those who would kill those innocents, while getting rid of the abominations as well. I guess there are people who don't have a problem justifying the former, but if Bioware wanted a reasonably balanced decision they did a bad job.  

I didn't see this "innocent" between bodies of psycho blood mages and abomnations did i miss something and i got mage ending but hey at least my hawke wasn't viscount. like in templar ending:)

[Mr.House]

Br3ad wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Because Orsino is clearly hiding something and my Hawke cares more about her friends and the city then mages, just because she's a mage does not mean she needs to feel sorry for the Kirkwall circle which is corrupt to hell. The quicker this mess clears, the quicker the city can trturn to safety and everyoen can get to work to clean up the mess.

Mereidth while crazy never hides anything or lied unlike that coward Orsino.

Pretty much this. Siding with the mages is idiotic at best. Also, siding with the Templars makes the ending make a lot more sense. 

Well the neutral option that was taken out the game, makes the ending make a lot more sense

But the Templars came second 

"No, you must choose, now!"

"Uh, no I don't. I'm going back to Fereldan now. Good luck guys." 

Isabela could have easily stole a boat too

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...
Prepare for 14 pages of debate going around in circles.

Here's what it comes down to:

1) The templars are more likely to win.

2) Kirkwall's Circle is hopelessly corrupt and we cannot allow these blood mages to go free and wreak havoc.

3) Hawke recognizes s/he needs the support of the templars to become viscount.

I said "without playing an evil Hawke". 1 and 3 are clear-cut evil and 2 violates every principle of justice in such a way that it amounts to the same.

I wonder how many killed Bethany. If you don't, you're a hypocrite on top of being a genocidal mass-murderer. 

Shall I list the amount of generalizations you just made, and how that last part reads like a reddit post.

1. Evil is subjective and all about the perespective one takes, you can't put a label on it when both choices are ****ty.

2. Pragmatism isn't evil, it's the act of doing what makes sense and is most beneficial. Though to be honest, the most pragmatic choice would have been to not get involved at all, but siding with the templars is a good second on there.

3. You're assumng bethany didn't die in the deep roads/become a grey warden.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 03 novembre 2013 - 08:42 .

[Ieldra]

@Vilegrim:
(1) Taking part in a mass murder for the sole reason that those ordering it are likely to end up in power is still evil.
(2) Mass murder in order to gain a position of power is evil as well.

Also, I'm no stranger to pragmatism, but the benefit must be worth the sacrifice. I don't see that here. The story clearly tells us that it's possible to detect possession, so it would've been no problem dealing with the mages as individuals.

BTW, there should've been an option to walk away. I understand why the writers didn't want one, but I don't see any in-world justification for excluding it.

[Dr. Doctor]

Fighting on the side of the Templars is a way to reduce the number of casualties on the mage side and a way to prevent Meredith from going on a murderous rampage. Considering that even the Knight-Commander's second is having severe doubts about her competence there's a good chance that the situation can be defused without the entire Circle being annulled.

Most of the mages within the Circle are innocent, the real conflict is between Meredith and Orsino with the stunt Anders pulled blowing the lid off of the whole thing. Bringing them both to heel and keeping Meredith close at hand means the whole thing can end that much quicker.

[Bardox9]

I sided with the templars on my second play through just to see the difference in the ending. It does feel wrong to do so, but you have to take the DA:O blinders off and see Kirkwalls circle for what it is. The DA:O circle had a small fraction of corrupt mages. Kirkwalls circle is filled with them. And first enchanter Orsino does nothing to stop it. He makes excuse after excuse. Meredith is... misguided maybe, but look at what she is dealing with. She's trying to do her job while the the first enchanter is blocking her in every way he can. As far as the mages go anyway. Her take over of the city is going to far. You have to choose between a guy that aided the man that murdered your mother and a mad woman trying to stop the flow of evil...Soooo... yeah. Templars for me.

I prefer the Mage class, so I get Carver during act 1. Wish there was away to keep bethany instead without choosing warrior or rogue, but... oh well. Atleast making Carver a templar helps make the final choice easier. Warrior and rogue just never feel right to me. You're not as invested in the mage templar conflict when you are not a mage.

Full disclosure, I also prefer the blood mage route. I recognize the irony of a blood mage siding with a Templar against a circle full of blood mages, but there are blood mages and there are blood mages. There is a difference in using your own blood to increase you spell casting abilities instead of using the blood of others for it. Splitting hairs... I know. When you start sucking the life out of people, bowing to demons, and trying to rule the world... you need to die.