538 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Except it is the genocide of the Kirkwall mages. someone said that the devs said no mages survived in the Templar ending.

Just because no mages survive doesn't make it genocide. People play awfully fast and loose with that word.

Except it is not "fast and loose" it is indeed the complete annihilation of the Circle Mages in Kirkwall

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
Varric understood it. Annuling the Circle was about protecting the innocent people of Kirkwall and preserving their way of life. It had to be done.

A pragmatic rationale I could understand - if there was any evidence of blood magic in the Circle that was not circumstantial. As opposed to what happened in Ferelden's Circle, there is nothing at all that justifies an Annulment. Varric's statement is nonsensical given the situation. None of the Circle mages is about to run amok, except as a result of an attempted Annulment. Maybe it was the developers intention to present it that way, or at least to give Varric's statement more justification, but if so, they failed.

Genocide: last I heard, killing everyone within a territory based on a trait they were born with fits the definition, no matter that templar supporters phrase it as "cutting away a disease". There have been such justifications in historical genocides, btw...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 novembre 2013 - 02:28 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
A pragmatic rationale I could understand - if there was any evidence of blood magic in the Circle that was not circumstantial. As opposed to what happened in Ferelden's Circle, there is nothing at all that justifies an Annulment. Varric's statement is nonsensical given the situation. None of the Circle mages is about to run amok, except as a result of an attempted Annulment. Maybe it was the developers intention to present it that way, or at least to give Varric's statement more justification, but if so, they failed.

Whatever the reasons, the Circle mages had been running amok; in fact, Varric could have been referring to the constant magical attacks; there were demons, abominations and mages fighting Templars in the streets. Hawke's rationale for siding with the Templars was never that the mages were corrupted and had to be stopped ;at least, not with a Diplomatic personality; his/her rationale was always that "No one wants templars and mages fighting in the streets...all we can do is keep casualties to a minimum."
Given the nature of magic, it's unavoidable that some of Kirkwall's citizens were caught in the crossfire hence Varric's reasoning that stopping the mages means saving innocent lives. And, should the mages win, the lifestyle of Kirkwall will be changed by the fact mages will have defeated the; until then; most powerful fighting and political force in the city. Hence, stopping the mages means preserving the way of life of Kirkwall.
Varric's statement is sound.

[Tinu]

MisterJB wrote...

It is interesting how Varric considers helping the Circle to be "helping dangerous people run amok" while helping the Templars is "Protecting innocent people, preserving our way of life."
I knew I liked Varric for a reason. I hope he mantains this outlook in DAI.

Protecting innocent people by killing innocent people? Right, that totally works...

[MisterJB]

It does. One innocent may cause harm to another and thus; since they don't share the same organism; by killing the first innocent, you save the second. It is entirely possible.
If you killed the carrier of a deadly virus, you would save innocent people by killing innocent people.

Assuming that the mages are innocent, they are still causing great destruction in Kirkwall; both directly and indirectly; through the use of destructive spells in their battle with the templars as well as the thinning of the Veil. Therefore, the citizens of Kirkwall will be protected by the death of the mages.

[draken-heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Varric understood it. Annuling the Circle was about protecting the innocent people of Kirkwall and preserving their way of life. It had to be done.

A pragmatic rationale I could understand - if there was any evidence of blood magic in the Circle that was not circumstantial. As opposed to what happened in Ferelden's Circle, there is nothing at all that justifies an Annulment. Varric's statement is nonsensical given the situation. None of the Circle mages is about to run amok, except as a result of an attempted Annulment. Maybe it was the developers intention to present it that way, or at least to give Varric's statement more justification, but if so, they failed.

Genocide: last I heard, killing everyone within a territory based on a trait they were born with fits the definition, no matter that templar supporters phrase it as "cutting away a disease". There have been such justifications in historical genocides, btw...

everyone knows that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, so it comes down to risk-reward, unless you are a mage or have Bethany in the Circle. The risk is that standing with the mages is siding with the people who could become abominations and slaughter every citizen in Kirkwall or ravage the country side. The reward is a moral high ground, as far as I can tell. The risk of siding with the Templars is being seen as a monster by mages,  hte reward is that mages will not potentially slaighter every citizen in Kirkwall or roam the countryside as monsters, and you get to be viscount.

So without that emotional connection, you lose out on crucial context by siding with the Mages based only on the chantry explosion and evidence the Templars cannot recieve unless the mages are forced out of the way (meaning that Orsino had to be executed to get the circle to let the Templars search because Orsino blocked  Meredith at all possible chances, even when an investigation about a revolt against her was in her jurisdiction in the first place).

Modifié par draken-heart, 27 novembre 2013 - 06:11 .

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Bardox9 wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

The problem is that Meredith doesn't want Orsino's help and she also won't let the nobilty pick a new vicount and that is not her job.

By the end at the finale choice of templar of mage, both of them are completely unreasonable. Act 1 Meredith was willing (reluctant but willing) to have worked with Orsino, but he refused to aid her.

Having just played DAII I can tell that is 100% WRONG! In Act One Meredith is only shown once swinging her hips at a pickpocket and Orsino is never mentioned. Most of the mage/templar stuff  in act one is basically helping both sides to catch or escape from the other. In act one Hawke is nothing more than a glorified bounty hunter and/or mercenary. Hawke doesn't meet either of them until the end of Act 2 where the Qunari attack forces Hawke, Meredith, and Orsino to work together. Even then Meredith comes off as a control freak who says the line "You not even from this city!" to Hawke when s/he offers to help the Templars and mages defeat the Qunari.

I also believe that Meredith becomes jealous of Hawke because she wanted to kill the Aristok and be the Champion of Kirkwall, but this is just speculation on my part.
 

In act 2 Orsino was actively blocked her attempts to root out the blood mages, but she had not given up hope on all of them.

Other than Quinten, Orsino never does help any other blood mages, and his exact involvement and knowlegde of Quinten's activies are debatable at best. He actually speaks out against blood magic and he actually tells Hawke that he fears some Circle Mages are using blood magic but because of Meredith's stupidity he doesn't want to condem all the mages in Kirkwall for the problems of a few.
 

By Act 3 she is warped and twist and paranoid beyond all reason after seeing for years now blood mage after blood mage and demon after demon pour out from the circle.

That is the first thing that you got right. Also that that her Red Lyrim sword wasn't helping matters. 

Orsino did not help her before and, in her state of mind at the end, it was clear to her he never would.

Orsino is the one that points out the Templars' duty at the start of Act 3 which is: "too protect the Chanty and Circle" something Meredith does not do at all in Act 3.

Orsino's incompetence is the cause of the chaos that has lead to the reawakening of the Inquisition. Had he simply done his job, all of the mage VS templar maddness could have been avoided. One weak minded mage has lead the world to the edge of ruin.

It's actually Meredith's paranoia, jealously, bigoty, and her unreasonablity is what causes the problem. 

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 27 novembre 2013 - 06:15 .

[draken-heart]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Having just played DAII I can tell that is 100% WRONG! In Act One Meredith is only shown once swinging her hips at a pickpocket and Orsino is never mentioned. Most of the mage/templar stuff  in act one is basically helping both sides to catch or escape from the other. In act one Hawke is nothing more than a glorified bounty hunter and/or mercenary. Hawke doesn't meet either of them until the end of Act 2 where the Qunari attack forces Hawke, Meredith, and Orsino to work together. Even then Meredith comes off as a control freak who says the line "You not even from this city!" to Hawke when s/he offers to help the Templars and mages defeat the Qunari.

I also believe that Meredith becomes jealous of Hawke because she wanted to kill the Aristok and be the Champion of Kirkwall, but this is just speculation on my part.

One thing I noticed is while Meredith is insane, She does have a point, but not here.

Cyberstrike nTo wrote... Other than Quinten, Orsino never does help any other blood mages, and his exact involvement and knowlegde of Quinten's activies are debatable at best. He actually speaks out against blood magic and he actually tells Hawke that he fears some Circle Mages are using blood magic but because of Meredith's stupidity he doesn't want to condem all the mages in Kirkwall for the problems of a few. 

 
Then why does he send Hawke to do an investigation that is 100% in Meredith's jurisdiction if you play neutral or mage-lover  Hawke? He even says so himself that he "does not want Meredith to have more ammunition against us." This means that at least some of the things Meredith says has some truth to it. He refuses to Help Meredith search for blood mages in the Circle, which is his job, until the RoA os called, and he and every mage is treanted. Then he wants to throw quite a few of the rest of the mages under the bus, Seems like he wanted to save his own hide to me.

Cyberstrike nTo wrote... That is the first thing that you got right. Also that that her Red Lyrim sword wasn't helping matters. 

Orsino is the one that points out the Templars' duty at the start of Act 3 which is: "too protect the Chanty and Circle" something Meredith does not do at all in Act 3.

It's actually Meredith's paranoia, jealously, bigoty, and her unreasonablity is what causes the problem. 

Orsino did have some things to do with it, considering that it was his duty to help Meredith search the tower for blood mages and does nothing but hinder that.

[BHRamsay]

I'm sorry but Orsino spends the third act denying there's a blood mage problem before turning around and fleshcrafting a Harvester out of his fellow mages.

Meredith may be bat****e crazy but Orsino doesn''t exactly engender much faith or trust.

[draken-heart]

BHRamsay wrote...

I'm sorry but Orsino spends the third act denying there's a blood mage problem before turning around and fleshcrafting a Harvester out of his fellow mages.

Meredith may be bat****e crazy but Orsino doesn''t exactly engender much faith or trust.

you do know that Orsino was not supposed to be a boss on the mages side right? But I agree.

[dragonflight288]

BHRamsay wrote...

I'm sorry but Orsino spends the third act denying there's a blood mage problem before turning around and fleshcrafting a Harvester out of his fellow mages.

Meredith may be bat****e crazy but Orsino doesn''t exactly engender much faith or trust.

This one video proves this statement wrong.

[draken-heart]

dragonflight288 wrote...

BHRamsay wrote...

I'm sorry but Orsino spends the third act denying there's a blood mage problem before turning around and fleshcrafting a Harvester out of his fellow mages.

Meredith may be bat****e crazy but Orsino doesn''t exactly engender much faith or trust.

This one video proves this statement wrong.

I would like to point out Orsino's last line, regarding what Meredith needs and the reason he sent the Champion. Seems to me like he wants to hide the mages' use of blood magic to make Meredith look incompetent or crazy. He even admits she is not entirely wrong.

Sending someone else to do the knight commander's job is a cover up, not daving people.

[dragonflight288]

draken-heart wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

BHRamsay wrote...

I'm sorry but Orsino spends the third act denying there's a blood mage problem before turning around and fleshcrafting a Harvester out of his fellow mages.

Meredith may be bat****e crazy but Orsino doesn''t exactly engender much faith or trust.

This one video proves this statement wrong.

I would like to point out Orsino's last line, regarding what Meredith needs and the reason he sent the Champion. Seems to me like he wants to hide the mages' use of blood magic to make Meredith look incompetent or crazy. He even admits she is not entirely wrong.

Sending someone else to do the knight commander's job is a cover up, not daving people.

That doesn't take away the fact that all mages would be targeted to begin with if Meredith had her evidence. And if you play the templar side and hawke shows up and says Orsino isnt in charge, she'll dismiss you entirely and say you're being controlled by blood magic.

[draken-heart]

dragonflight288 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

BHRamsay wrote...

I'm sorry but Orsino spends the third act denying there's a blood mage problem before turning around and fleshcrafting a Harvester out of his fellow mages.

Meredith may be bat****e crazy but Orsino doesn''t exactly engender much faith or trust.

This one video proves this statement wrong.

I would like to point out Orsino's last line, regarding what Meredith needs and the reason he sent the Champion. Seems to me like he wants to hide the mages' use of blood magic to make Meredith look incompetent or crazy. He even admits she is not entirely wrong.

Sending someone else to do the knight commander's job is a cover up, not daving people.

That doesn't take away the fact that all mages would be targeted to begin with if Meredith had her evidence. And if you play the templar side and hawke shows up and says Orsino isnt in charge, she'll dismiss you entirely and say you're being controlled by blood magic.

except that Orsino is a blood mage as well. IT would have made sense to side with the mages if Orsino was the accomodating one who tried to help Meredith outside of when his own life was in danger, but that is not the case. Orsino blocked Meredith at every opportunity when Blood mages were to be investigated.

Your video is actually evidence against mages, not for them.

Modifié par draken-heart, 28 novembre 2013 - 06:55 .

[Bardox9]

The Circle in Kirkwall is corrupt. Orsino is too weak to properly serve as First Enchanter. The video is shows Orsino telling Hawke something he should have told Meredith. His constant resistance and refusal to admit to himself, much less the Templars, that his students are corrupted is what leads to the growing tensions between Mage and Templar through out DA2.

I've only sided with the mages of DA2 once. That was because I played as a warrior and Bethany went to the circle. Orsino is the problem in Kirkwall... that and Kirkwall seems to be a bloodmage magnet. According to the Enigma of Kirkwall codexs, that is by design. Combine those things with an idol that warps the minds of those around it, and... BOOM!

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...

BHRamsay wrote...

I'm sorry but Orsino spends the third act denying there's a blood mage problem before turning around and fleshcrafting a Harvester out of his fellow mages.

Meredith may be bat****e crazy but Orsino doesn''t exactly engender much faith or trust.

This one video proves this statement wrong.

It seems to me that video proves that statement right. Orsino suspects some mages might be using blood magic and what does he do? He send for outside help so that he can continue to deny publicaly that there is a blood mage problem.

[BHRamsay]

In Orsino's defense, calling him a weak First Enchanter might be harsh.
The only other First Enchanter we meet is Irving. who managed to miss a full-on Mage coup going on down the hall from his office.

I've also always found it odd that a forbidden text detailing how to prepare an apprentice for having their body stolen winds up in the hands of a cunning old man who's entirely too comfortable using his apprentices to score political points and gain advantage

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

BHRamsay wrote...

I'm sorry but Orsino spends the third act denying there's a blood mage problem before turning around and fleshcrafting a Harvester out of his fellow mages.

Meredith may be bat****e crazy but Orsino doesn''t exactly engender much faith or trust.

This one video proves this statement wrong.

It seems to me that video proves that statement right. Orsino suspects some mages might be using blood magic and what does he do? He send for outside help so that he can continue to deny publicaly that there is a blood mage problem.

And can you blame him, with Meredith looking for an excuse to invoke the RoA? He attempts to solve the problem while saving the Circle. Sounds like what a good First Enchanter should do.

[draken-heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

BHRamsay wrote...

I'm sorry but Orsino spends the third act denying there's a blood mage problem before turning around and fleshcrafting a Harvester out of his fellow mages.

Meredith may be bat****e crazy but Orsino doesn''t exactly engender much faith or trust.

This one video proves this statement wrong.

It seems to me that video proves that statement right. Orsino suspects some mages might be using blood magic and what does he do? He send for outside help so that he can continue to deny publicaly that there is a blood mage problem.

And can you blame him, with Meredith looking for an excuse to invoke the RoA? He attempts to solve the problem while saving the Circle. Sounds like what a good First Enchanter should do.

He said that if Meredith was right, and that if she knew about the blood mage problem in Kirkwall's circle, she would have what she needs to JUSTIFY the RoA. There is a difference here, and that difference is Orsino trying to hide the blood mages to  make Meredith look crazy so that she get kicked from being knight-commander (just one explanation, find something better? post it).

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
And can you blame him, with Meredith looking for an excuse to invoke the RoA? He attempts to solve the problem while saving the Circle. Sounds like what a good First Enchanter should do.

Orsino had been doing this even in Act 2(Quentin) where Meredith explicitly refused a plan to turn all mages in the Circle Tranquil.  I don't deny that Meredith was harsh on occasions, but what Orsino was doing was only aggravating the situation by denying that there was a problem with rogue mages threatening the city; freeing mages from all accountabilities and by  giving Meredith the impression there was no one within the Circle's leadership she could trust.
Plus, asking a third party that is not obligated to help you in any way is not a reliable method of obtaining results.

Of course, we have to wonder how was it that someone who had never even considered using blood magic was suddenly capable of becoming an Harvester. Or how was it that an innocent Circle is suddenly full of blood mages and demon summoners during the Annulment.

Modifié par MisterJB, 28 novembre 2013 - 07:04 .

[BHRamsay]

I find The pro Templar ending to be the better written of the two
Plus if you've been playing the first two acts as promage then it really feels like all your good deeds are coming back to bite you in the ass

Karan betrays you,
Thrask betrays you
Grace tries to kill you

By the time Last Straw rolls around Annulment seems down-right reasonable

[MisterJB]

I wish there was a third option. I really don't wish to kill ALL mages but I also can't, in good conscience, protect higly volatile biological weapons against law enforcement authorities.
At least I can spare some mages and Hawke will properly present my reasoning. "We're here to prevent a crysis, not raze everything in our path."

[draken-heart]

MisterJB wrote...

I wish there was a third option. I really don't wish to kill ALL mages but I also can't, in good conscience, protect higly volatile biological weapons against law enforcement authorities.
At least I can spare some mages and Hawke will properly present my reasoning. "We're here to prevent a crysis, not raze everything in our path."

As I have said, it is based on risk-reward, unless playing a mage or have Bethany in the Circle. Then emotion trumps reasoning.

[BHRamsay]

Plus if you favour Cullen's advice Meredith totally gives you the crazy eyes
It a good moment as it adds a legitimate weight to Cullen standing upto Meredith at the end

[Bardox9]

Being that Hawke comes from a family of mages, I usually act pro mage with only a few exceptions. The only pro templar things my hawke does are send Feynriel to the circle in Act 1, kill the mage elves in "Elves at Large" in Act 2, and side with the Templars in "Last Staw" in Act 3. I give the Mages of Kirkwall every chance in Thedas, but year after year the corruption spreads. Only so much can be blamed on Merediths harsh treatment, but the harsh treatment can all be blamed on Orsinos constant interference.

The reason Meredith sees evil in every shadow is not because of the idol. She sees evil in every shadow because it's there... and Orsino is protecting it as it corrupts mage after mage. While I don't believe the RoA is warranted, I cannot in good conscience side with the mages in Last Straw. Only with Bethany in the Circle can I bring myself to side with the Mages in the final battle.

No matter what, Anders/Justice must die! Never liked Justice. Even in DA:A he was just wrong.