Mages represent a sense of liberty.
Templers represent a sense of security.
Your own personal belief will naturally sway you. Neither choice is inherently good or evil.
Thanks to Elder Scrolls (specifically Skyrim) I saw through Meredith a long time ago thanks to the Daedric Prince Meridia (conveniently both roles are voice acted by Jean Gilpin). It's almost fitting to have her fill both roles for their righteous zealotry. It suits both origin stories.
I side with Meredith half the time and mages the other half.
Whenever I side with the mages I find that I end up slaughtering almost as many mages (who have turned abomination) as I am templars. So that fact, combined with the whole WTF scene with Orsino even when you side with him really gets me to see the Templar side as well.
I flipped a coin, and Meredith won the toss. I would have preferred to kill 'em all and let the Maker sort 'em out, but that option wasn't available.
Orsino was a crappy First Enchanter who couldn't keep his mages in check. Everytime they get caught in a corner they resort to blood magic giving the Templars and Meredith every reason to kill them. Orsino hides the piece of garbage that kills Hawkes mother. Of course when I learned that he was protecting Quentin, I never sided with the mages ever again even though I play a mage most of the time.
Rude! :0
Orsino hides the piece of garbage that kills Hawkes mother. Of course when I learned that he was protecting Quentin, I never sided with the mages ever again even though I play a mage most of the time.
Which was terrible, no doubt, but I can sort of understand why he did it. With Meredith running the Kirkwall Circle like a police-state, and Orsino fearing that she was a ticking time-bomb for invoking the Rite of Annulment, it made sense to be armed with powerful blood-magic spells should worse come to worse.
And since the Chantry foolishly forbids even researching it (thanks Avernus), you can only turn to rogue mages for such things.
Frankly, I was disappointed I couldn't take Quentin alive, and have him made Tranquil -- he'd tell us everything, possibly even rat Orsino in the process -- before finally killing him. Anders probably would have disapproved, to the tune of 50 rivalry points or something, but that would say more about him than about me.
What compelling reason is there for the Chantry and Templars to allow the mages to advance their knowledge in one of the most dangerous, morally abusive, and least counterable fields of magic?
And I agree about interrogating a tranquil to find the criminals behind them. I feel a lot of problems could have been resolved had we not been forced to accept Karl's death by Anders either- Karl was probably the best proof we had about various Templar abuses, and instead we murdered him.
Also in the beginning of the game Anders mentions he only came to Kirkwall for Karl's sake. Later he stayed because of refugees and to help Hawke. If Karl wasn't abused Anders would never have come to Kirkwall and met Hawke. This whole mess started when Templars unjustly (as we see the proof in game) made Karl tranquil. It was the drop that moved the whole pond.
Why limit it to that drop in time? Why not Anders becoming an abomination? Abandoning the Grey Wardens? Repeatedly fleeing the Circles?
The situation could have also been avoided had the Templars taken off a leg after Anders' fifth escape attempt to make it harder for him to run away again.
Why limit it to that drop in time? Why not Anders becoming an abomination? Abandoning the Grey Wardens? Repeatedly fleeing the Circles?
The situation could have also been avoided had the Templars taken off a leg after Anders' fifth escape attempt to make it harder for him to run away again.
Well because I thought about it too like you did. Making Karl tranquil seemed more solid. Anders might have still escaped anyway and in Ferelden circle they never kill/tranquil apostates who passed their harrowing unless they commit a serious crime or become a maleficar. Clearly since Ferelden circle was "better" escaping was never seen as a real crime and the punishment was always strict imprisonment.
Also Anders merging with Justice did not immediately corrupt Justice. The more angry Anders became the more dominant the corruption become. Actually I always wondered why Anders' transformation in Chantry was different than all the other times where he simply glows. In chantry he goes "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" passes out then Justice comes out eventhough he dismisses Justice at will when fight is over. He gets worse with time as he gets more angry and depressed and seeing Karl like that surely affected him a great deal. So if Anders never came to Kirkwall he might have start a practical and strong rebellion instead of forcing people's hand to start a war.
What compelling reason is there for the Chantry and Templars to allow the mages to advance their knowledge in one of the most dangerous, morally abusive, and least counterable fields of magic?
Why does anyone research dangerous, destructive things? In case the need arises to use them yourself, for this reason or that.
And it's not for the mages' general knowledge, this would be "classified" info known only to the Circle and Templar head honchos.
Of course, the fear with that would be rogue First Enchanters, but when an apprentice like Jowan can learn blood-magic from a book, you're never truly going to be safe from the forbidden school at any level. And that's not even why it's banned -- when it comes down to it, the Chant's rejection of blood-magic is due to religious principles. Until and unless their doctrine changes, any point on this matter is moot. Ya can't argue with "Because the Maker says so."
Why does anyone research dangerous, destructive things? In case the need arises to use them yourself, for this reason or that.
And it's not for the mages' general knowledge, this would be "classified" info known only to the Circle and Templar head honchos.
Fair enough- I wasn't sure if you meant that, but it is a distinction I can get behind.
Personally, I would support the creation of a very special, specific 'Black Circle' where extremely sensitive, restricted, and long-term research would be underdone. We're talking so restricted that it would be little more than urban legend at best, and might as well be called the NSC ('No Such Circle'). Demonology, blood magic, abomination experiments, and other restricted schools to study and understand how they work, and how they can be foiled. This would be the sort of laboratory that the Tranquility Cure would be researched in.
It would be an extremely tightly held part of the security state, with entrance being a one-way street. When a Mage enters, they're in for life- no ifs, ands, or buts. and that would only be after extreme screening and history checks.
Of course, the fear with that would be rogue First Enchanters, but when an apprentice like Jowan can learn blood-magic from a book, you're never truly going to be safe from the forbidden school at any level. And that's not even why it's banned -- when it comes down to it, the Chant's rejection of blood-magic is due to religious principles. Until and unless their doctrine changes, any point on this matter is moot. Ya can't argue with "Because the Maker says so."
Funny story. When most people speak of the professionalization and secularization of the Templars, they think getting rid of 'because the Maker says so' will mean the conclusions will be overturned. When I speak of the professionalization and secularization of the Templars, I speak of getting to the point where justifications other than 'because the Maker says so' are sufficient for conclusions.
Frankly, I was disappointed I couldn't take Quentin alive, and have him made Tranquil -- he'd tell us everything, possibly even rat Orsino in the process -- before finally killing him. Anders probably would have disapproved, to the tune of 50 rivalry points or something, but that would say more about him than about me.
That's actually a pretty interesting idea. Never thought of that. If the option presented itself, I would probably have done it, gleaned as much as one could out of him, then dispose of his body.
As for Anders' disapproval, I don't really worry much about that, because the murder knife kind of cancels it out.
An option to hop onto Isabel's ship and sail away while they slaughtered one another would have been perfect. Zealots killing zealots. Cutscene to Meredith and Orsino-abomination killing one another, and the Champion and her/his companions sailing away.
I finally sided with Meredith about a week ago and I think her and Orsino are both nuts and I'd rather just get some popcorn and watch both sides wipe each other out.
I finally did it.
It took me two and a half years to bring myself to side with Meredith at the end of DA2. I've played many Hawkes and made many different decisions, including siding with the templars every single time before the end, and could rationalize almost all of them from the perspective of the Hawke I'd been playing. The one thing I never did, because it just felt evil to me, was to follow Meredith when she invoked the Annulment.
This time I did. I had never watched how this played out on YT, so I didn't know how things would go. Guess what? It was every bit as evil as I imagined it would be.
I mean, yes, I tend towards being pro-mage, but while I don't share the templar position, I understand it. Enough that I can roleplay a templar-friendly Hawke until the end of DA2 with no problem. But going along with this genocidal act, killing a whole Circle for the actions of a few, most of them happening outside a Circle, I feel tainted. I understand the desire to kill Orsino, even before he turns into the Harvester, but you only get that scene where he admits to having known Quentin after the decision about the Annulment has already been made. I find myself unable to let that playthrough exist and I'll reload it and change my decision again.
So here, my question: how can anyone who doesn't play an evil Hawke justify siding with Meredith at the end? I do wish to see the consequences of that in DAI, but I guess I'm glad we'll have the DA Keep and I don't have to play it.
I guess it all comes down to one simple truth: if the mages overthrow the templars, they'll fund a magocracy. If anyone opposes them, they'll just resort to magic, since they have more power than anyone else.
And once they have no authority controlling them, it may take years, decades, even centuries, but in time they'll eventually submit ordinary peoples to their rule and become tyrannical.
Leliana comes back in DA2 as Sister Nightingale and tells you the whole world is watching Kirkwall. Blood mages have infiltrated it and are leading the turmoils and clashes between mages and templars. You yourself discover a group of blood mages plotting another revolt right before you meet Leliana and are forced to kill them.
Leliana then tells you that Divine Justinia is especially concerned with the situation in the city. And she states very clearly that, if Kirkwall falls, the whole of Thedas will be in danger.
It's no wonder the several number of mages running from Kirkwall's Circle and Meredith's escalating paranoia are closely linked, although the lyrium in Act 3 was a really bad plot device to justify her inflexibility. I mean, WTF. This literally rendered all of her actions by the end of the game unjustifiable.
I finally sided with Meredith about a week ago and I think her and Orsino are both nuts and I'd rather just get some popcorn and watch both sides wipe each other out.
Same.
If I could choose a "Nope *gets popcorn*" choice I would. Crazy and crazier can have fun without me.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
I choose Meredith because after DAO and now all the damn blood mages I encounter before the choice, my Hawke having heard all fenris has to say on the matter sees that right now it has to be shut down. I sided with the mages in DAO all the time, but that was because I already cleaned house and the few that were left - well it was a very small number and manageable if they were possessed. But this is so much bigger. How could they even begin to feret out all the blood mages? My Hawke trusted some and they turned against her. So yes, I go with meredith but then spare the few that I can when they make the right choice.
If you side with Meredith, you see just how many are blood mages. There are abominations everywhere. Tell me that was a last ditch act of desperation and I'll say BS. Blood mages are all over this game. How people don't choose the right is beyond me. But maybe I will choose the mages and see how that goes next time. Give them the benefit of the doubt despite that all the ones I end up dealing with for the most part are blood mages. I will see how that goes. It's going to be strange though.
I choose Meredith because after DAO and now all the damn blood mages I encounter before the choice, my Hawke having heard all fenris has to say on the matter sees that right now it has to be shut down. I sided with the mages in DAO all the time, but that was because I already cleaned house and the few that were left - well it was a very small number and manageable if they were possessed. But this is so much bigger. How could they even begin to feret out all the blood mages? My Hawke trusted some and they turned against her. So yes, I go with meredith but then spare the few that I can when they make the right choice.
If you side with Meredith, you see just how many are blood mages. There are abominations everywhere. Tell me that was a last ditch act of desperation and I'll say BS. Blood mages are all over this game. How people don't choose the right is beyond me. But maybe I will choose the mages and see how that goes next time. Give them the benefit of the doubt despite that all the ones I end up dealing with for the most part are blood mages. I will see how that goes. It's going to be strange though.
Ohnoez, desperate measures of self-defense!
I sided with the templars on my second play through just to see the difference in the ending. It does feel wrong to do so, but you have to take the DA:O blinders off and see Kirkwalls circle for what it is. The DA:O circle had a small fraction of corrupt mages. Kirkwalls circle is filled with them. And first enchanter Orsino does nothing to stop it. He makes excuse after excuse. Meredith is... misguided maybe, but look at what she is dealing with. She's trying to do her job while the the first enchanter is blocking her in every way he can. As far as the mages go anyway. Her take over of the city is going to far. You have to choose between a guy that aided the man that murdered your mother and a mad woman trying to stop the flow of evil...Soooo... yeah. Templars for me.
I prefer the Mage class, so I get Carver during act 1. Wish there was away to keep bethany instead without choosing warrior or rogue, but... oh well. Atleast making Carver a templar helps make the final choice easier. Warrior and rogue just never feel right to me. You're not as invested in the mage templar conflict when you are not a mage.
Full disclosure, I also prefer the blood mage route. I recognize the irony of a blood mage siding with a Templar against a circle full of blood mages, but there are blood mages and there are blood mages. There is a difference in using your own blood to increase you spell casting abilities instead of using the blood of others for it. Splitting hairs... I know. When you start sucking the life out of people, bowing to demons, and trying to rule the world... you need to die.
You should think about that Orsion was trying to protect the mages in the Circle as best as he could. Do you think if he told Meredith he knew Quentin and had helped him even though he didn't realized at first what he was doing, but once he did he stop contact and put the research away she would have been
"it's okay you didn't know thanks for telling me. Will find this mage right away,"
No she would have called for the ROA and gotten it because the First Enchanter was a "Blood Mage". So I understand why Orsino did what he did. He held the Annulment off for six years.
Also she didn't do a damn thing about the real blood mages and abominations who weren't part of the Circle. If she did do her job Hawke's mother wouldn't have died. So her "holding off the flow of evil" is as far from the truth as it gets.
It was clear Orisno was hiding osmething, he had no reason to stop Meredith from investagting the mages after the fiasco with Grace. He didn't want her because he knew what she would find. Look at Irving. Irving while sometimes got in an argument with Gregor, he still ehlped Gregor. Orsino didn't want to help Meredith, that is fishy. It's then revealed why. So yes you can play a Hawke is thinks Orisno is hiding something.
Are you talking about Best Served Cold. He didn't go to Meredith because it she would have used it call for the Annulment. He didn't know what what happening and if it was blood mages he wanted Hawke to stop them and not give Meredith any more ammo. How people can't grasp that I will never know. I mean he has to worry about every man woman and child in the circle escpecailly when Meredith stopped working with him. I mean KC and FE are supposed to work together and both decide which mages get made Tranquil or not. She stopped doing that and used it as a punishment when it's not supposed to be that. But she did and she allowed her templars to do whatever they wanted to.
I finally did it.
It took me two and a half years to bring myself to side with Meredith at the end of DA2. I've played many Hawkes and made many different decisions, including siding with the templars every single time before the end, and could rationalize almost all of them from the perspective of the Hawke I'd been playing. The one thing I never did, because it just felt evil to me, was to follow Meredith when she invoked the Annulment.
This time I did. I had never watched how this played out on YT, so I didn't know how things would go. Guess what? It was every bit as evil as I imagined it would be.
I mean, yes, I tend towards being pro-mage, but while I don't share the templar position, I understand it. Enough that I can roleplay a templar-friendly Hawke until the end of DA2 with no problem. But going along with this genocidal act, killing a whole Circle for the actions of a few, most of them happening outside a Circle, I feel tainted. I understand the desire to kill Orsino, even before he turns into the Harvester, but you only get that scene where he admits to having known Quentin after the decision about the Annulment has already been made. I find myself unable to let that playthrough exist and I'll reload it and change my decision again.
So here, my question: how can anyone who doesn't play an evil Hawke justify siding with Meredith at the end? I do wish to see the consequences of that in DAI, but I guess I'm glad we'll have the DA Keep and I don't have to play it.
Let's see. Normally I side with mages but I've played this plenty now and I've decided this time around. My hawke is angry. Fed up and disgusted.
1; The templars did NOT cut my mother's head off
2; The templars did NOT imbue a slaves skin with lyrium to see if it can be done to create a weaponized slave.
3; A templar did NOT use blood magic to poison an arl for a tyrant to gain a throne
A templar (OK well maybe a templar was there but I digress) did NOT kidnap my sibling and hold them with blood magic to intimidate me
They were not mages (and templars), but madmen, criminals.
Honestly, I wasn't happy to be obliged to pick a side because I was already disgusted by both of them... I mean, templars who stupidly harass mages, mages who take the worse possible decisions.... in the end, I chose the templars, because what happened to Hawke's mother was the straw that breaks the camel's back to me, but without any real convictions or motivation....
And when you see the end of the game and that your decision finally doesn't matter....
Frustrating 
Honestly, I wasn't happy to be obliged to pick a side because I was already disgusted by both of them... I mean, templars who stupidly harass mages, mages who take the worse possible decisions.... in the end, I chose the templars, because what happened to Hawke's mother was the straw that breaks the camel's back to me, but without any real convictions or motivation....
And when you see the end of the game and that your decision finally doesn't matter....
Frustrating
Not the mages murdered Hawke's mother, it was only Quentin.Just for the sake of accuracy:The whole game is about this frustration. I do like it.
Well I remember that letter signed by "O." that Quentin received, so Orsino knew about everything and did nothing. Also I don't like the mages' mentality, using blood magic for solving all their problems.
Anyways, as I already told, I disliked both side. I just picked the templars because they were the least worst choice to me, that's all.
I hate to play a game and feel frustrated about everything all the time. I personally like to play protagonists who do choices that count, so I can feel invested in the game, not just watch a series of disasters I can't stop.
Personal taste, really 
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