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How can anyone side with Meredith at the end of DA2?


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#326
Catilina

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Well I remember that letter signed by "O." that Quentin received, so Orsino knew about everything and did nothing. Also I don't like the mages' mentality, using blood magic for solving all their problems.

Anyways, as I already told, I disliked both side. I just picked the templars because they were the least worst choice to me, that's all.

 

I hate to play a game and feel frustrated about everything all the time. I personally like to play protagonists who do choices that count, so I can feel invested in the game, not just watch a series of disasters I can't stop.

 

Personal taste, really ;)

This is why I wrote my personal opinion ;)

 

Orsino knew about Quentin research, not the murder.

 

(Sometimes the Blood magic was a pretty stylish solution to kill Danarius...)

 

I choose the Templars only once, for Carver. Meredith was completely crazy, it's no wonder that the mages saw the solution in the blood magic. They even are crazy. Desperate crazy, which is very dangerous  Paranoid crazy vs desperate crazy . There is no good solution.



#327
Scarlett

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This is why I wrote my personal opinion ;)

 

Orsino knew about Quentin research, not the murder.

 

(Sometimes the Blood magic was a pretty stylish solution to kill Danarius...)

 

I choose the Templars only once, for Carver. Meredith was completely crazy, it's no wonder that the mages saw the solution in the blood magic. They even are crazy. Desperate crazy, which is very dangerous  Paranoid crazy vs desperate crazy . There is no good solution.

No problem.

 

About Orsino, I think he totally lacked of serious for a first enchanter (too bad, I just love his design)~ Him and Meredith were just too obsessed about each other for having a clear vision of the situation.

 

Yes, no good solution. I wish we had one :/ DAI was a bit better on that specific subject. For example, I like that I was able to make everybody work for me on the "wicked eyes, wicked heart" mission instead of having a blood bath again (hard to do, but damn, I so was proud of myself :P ). Well that's another story ~


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#328
Catilina

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No problem.

 

About Orsino, I think he totally lacked of serious for a first enchanter (too bad, I just love his design)~ Him and Meredith were just too obsessed about each other for having a clear vision of the situation.

 

Yes, no good solution. I wish we had one :/ DAI was a bit better on that specific subject. For example, I like that I was able to make everybody work for me on the "wicked eyes, wicked heart" mission instead of having a blood bath again (hard to do, but damn, I so was proud of myself :P ). Well that's another story ~

The answer is: why we expect a solution? And from who?

For example from "an apostate refuge" self-propelled cynical (possible) blood mage (who want to only to survive, and who is the most "normal" in the whole city...) with a vulnerable but dangerous lover + an possessed-tainted apostate friend + an expelled blood mage elf + a morally shaky pirate + vindicative chantryboy, etc? A real problem-solving team... (True, the DA:O's team and the Warden are nor better ...)
Although the city is undoubtedly deserve they ... ;)

 

Ofc, I polarized a bit...

 

Seriously:
The whole story foreshadows itself.

Even if you bring along the most humane decisions. From the beginning of the game, the missions's outcome are bitter, never clearly good. Meredith's (and Orsino's) madness just icing on the cake...



#329
ModernAcademic

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One possible reason is if your Hawke has met Sister Nightingale and learns of the blood mages that belonged to one of the Circle's Fraternities. Leliana even goes as far as to warn you how there's a coup being staged right under Elthina and Meredith's nose.

So no matter how unfounded Meredith's accusations are due to her paranoia being fed by red lyrium, Kirkwall's Circle is compromised by the influence of a hidden group of blood mages. If you think about it, you'll understand why so many escaped mages the templars battle on the streets turn out to be blood mages and abominations.

No matter whose fault was it that so many mages turned to blood magic, Meredith's due to her tyranny or Orsino due to his complacency with blood magic. Siding with the mages may set free dozens of blood mages in disguise. And Hawke would eventually be blamed for it.

#330
GoldenGail3

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I sided with Merdith out of curiousity... 



#331
Macha'Anu

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They were not mages (and templars), but madmen, criminals.

Who were Mages in the circle of Magi. Honestly we cannot always find a reason for evil to be nessasary. I could never EVER justify draining someone of blood for the greater good........ But then my morals lean towards white and good. So, Yeah 

Oppression is bad but sacraficing the virgin is bad too. Sorry. I think both sides are beyond help.



#332
Asdrubael Vect

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I finally did it.

It took me two and a half years to bring myself to side with Meredith at the end of DA2. I've played many Hawkes and made many different decisions, including siding with the templars every single time before the end, and could rationalize almost all of them from the perspective of the Hawke I'd been playing. The one thing I never did, because it just felt evil to me, was to follow Meredith when she invoked the Annulment.

This time I did. I had never watched how this played out on YT, so I didn't know how things would go. Guess what? It was every bit as evil as I imagined it would be.

I mean, yes, I tend towards being pro-mage, but while I don't share the templar position, I understand it. Enough that I can roleplay a templar-friendly Hawke until the end of DA2 with no problem. But going along with this genocidal act, killing a whole Circle for the actions of a few, most of them happening outside a Circle, I feel tainted. I understand the desire to kill Orsino, even before he turns into the Harvester, but you only get that scene where he admits to having known Quentin after the decision about the Annulment has already been made. I find myself unable to let that playthrough exist and I'll reload it and change my decision again.

So here, my question: how can anyone who doesn't play an evil Hawke justify siding with Meredith at the end? I do wish to see the consequences of that in DAI, but I guess I'm glad we'll have the DA Keep and I don't have to play it.

Not a single one

 

let be honest and see simple facts about our hero Hawke what are not changes no matter what, still hawke was whotes as apostage bloodmage by default, but even if we can pick nonmage and other things those things and facts does not changes at all

 

1)Hawke was raised and was from a family of apostage mages, his father(who run from a circle and templars for a whole life), his sister(who can ends in a circle if Hawke was not a mage and by the lore he protects her for years from templars as angry about her to be with templars) and he was know about that his uncle/aunt(even if they was not become a hero of ferelden they was exist) was mage....and with this we have left with fact that hakwe can understand that his childrens could be mages with a very very high chance

 

2)Hawke father was a blood mage and Hawke himself use blood magic(always with Coryfeus prison) even if he was not a mage(and yeah rituals of blood magic can be used by nonmages too as summoning deamons)...he did things with Flemeth too as other deals with magic and nonandrastians stuff to much times

 

3)Hawke and his family was become rich cos of help of apostage mage and apostage mage save his brother/sister from death in the deep roads, as apostage mage flemeth save Hawke family from death

 

3)Hawke has apostages mages(and can have "magic abomination" fenris) in his friends/companions(even if we as Hawke was not consider them as his friends he was work with them for years) FOR YEARS

 

4)Hawke is not a andrastian and cannot be fainfull cos of everything what he does in game what is a very huge heresy and nonandrastian things, and we have not a single explanation about hawke templar ability cos he was never a member of templar order and never have a single one templar ally exept templar Thrask who goes against Templars

 

5)Hawke have not a single relationships with Meredith exept Meredith try to blackmail Hawke to do her job cos of his mage sister(what Hawke was protect for years) or if he was a mage himself, and the whole Kirkwall and his nobles what are made Hawke as their Champion are HATE and try to go agains Meredith and Templars who try to shut them as Hawke too, and Templars have no legal rights to do such

 

6)Every Hawke relations with Chantry and Templars was a insult, orders, blackmail, backtabbing of Hawke and Kirkwall city, they kill Dumar son(and Elthina does not care a bit), diplomates and they let Qunari start a war for what Kirkwall was not ready, they use Hawke everytime as they kill nobles of Kirkwall who try to oppose them, have their rightfull place to rule Kirkwall and with Meredith Kirkwall becma a slaves of a Orlais Chantry, it was from a beginning when Kirkwall ruler was sick of Oralis and their templars and try to exile them(as Ferelden did with Alisari/Anora after blight) so he was dead by Elthina and her Meredith and they have a puppet like Dumar, and after Dumar they does not care to replace him...Kirkwall peoples never care about mages and pity them as hate templars who opress not  only mages but everyone, every single crazy mages thing was related to templars opression of them what are made them mad and wanted to kill themself rather than go back to circle

 

And we know that Elthina and Templars of Kirkwall does not even listen a Divine and was rid as shut those templars officers who try to oppose Meredith like Trusk did and Meredith supporter Cullen was shut him

 

7)"Mad mage in the night kills Hawke stupid mother who by herself go gor a walk in to criminal streats what was infested with army of bandits" thing cant be used agains Circle mages cos this mage was a apostage from a Nevarra(and yeah we does not know that it was Orsino and Orsino never know about that mage and just send him books as was pity him and his lost of a wife) as Anders was a grey warden and Hawke are in a huge dept to anders and much of a city(as we see that Kirkwall still have a huge love to him in DAI what was angry templars)

 

 this is at least few of facts about Hawke what are not made sense for hawke to support crazy Templars with Meredith

 

 

i am not even talk about that Meredith have no right for rite of annulment and possessed apostage mage Anders was showed himself for all as claim that he was do such(And Hawke was related to anders for years as can help him as said that he was a partner in crime who does not know what anders do but he was help him) as show his demonc possession, and Meredith does know about Anders grey wardens thing as he was not related to Circle

 

Hawke was do a genocite for innocent  peoples who was protect themself as they could from templars and some try to do a blood mage and summon deamon cos they have no choice and say that they should die without try to using blood magic to save their lives thats kinda ridiculous

 

As we can never blame all mages cos mages are never a unite and part of a some order and Templars are not just some peoples but a members of organisation-order who do what they do with heretics and mages



#333
Gileadan

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I sided with Meredith and still think it was the right decision.

 

By the time I got to the end of DA2, I was more than ready for it to end. The story never caught my interest, half of my party (Anders, Fenris, Merril) annoyed me and now I was made to choose between two unlikeable factions, with no options to tell everyone to go screw themselves.

 

As champion of Kirkwall, I felt that my first priority was the welfare of the common folk of Kirkwall. In the light of this priority, I considered the following:

 

- templars are a danger to mages

- mages are a danger to everyone (except maybe veteran templars)

 

Removing the templars would remove the controlling force that kept mages from turning Kirkwall into a slaughterhouse full of howling abominations.

Removing the mages would have no immediate disadvantage to the common people of Kirkwall.

 

Conclusion: mages gotta go. Check-out time.

 

All this was decided on a very unemotional basis, since as I said above, I was never invested into the story at all. Character wise, my sarcastic mage Hawke had just about enough of the Kirkwall circle acting like they were the three Stooges with chainsaws and messing up every mage's reputation - including his - with their nonsense.


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#334
Catilina

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[...]

Broadly I agree.

 

A little clarification: 

 

(2) We dont know, that Hawke's father was blood mage, before he was forces  to performe the rite by the Grey Wardens. (If he had not used before / after blood magic, we can not say that there was blood mage, I think. – Or we can say that the templars are blood mages, because they uses blood magic ritual.)

 

(3) We can not call Fenris magic abomination, Fenris "just" enchanted...or rather, he have a magical implantation. Not to mention it, Fenris use his planted magic, not the planted magic use Fenris. (Although, anger and strong emotions may call this effect... but still: not the magical force use Fenris, only his angst.) The abominations used by theirs inner demon (not figuratively).

(We may can call abomination Anders.)

(Last, but not least: Fenris, by his nature, support the Templars.)

 

(4) We dont know, that Hawke andrastian or not. For example I imagine my Hawkes are moderate andrastians (most of them are regularly using blood magic, so I can not say absolutely faithful), as they family (we know: Bethany was andrastian, often she visited the church in Lothering (Leliana said, if i remember correctly).

 

(6) ("Every Hawke relations with Chantry and Templars was a insult") My Hawkes was happy to help to templars and the chantry in something, if that was not agains the mages. Well ... true, such question was just a few ... (from Thrask, from Cullen, from Elthina)

 

No offense, just for the accuracy (and i not sure, i have the TRUTH :) )

 

I was only once on the templar side, at the finish, for Carver, and never more (I like better templar Carver, than grey warden Carver [or dead Carver], and i have only once  [grey warden] Bethany. I think, Bethany are not funny – i can say: she is a little boring, and I like playing with mage.)



#335
Catilina

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[...]

An interesting angle of view, there is something to it.

 

Nevertheless:

The city have city guards for the safety, the do not needed the templars' supervision...

When choosing, you could not have known that the templars will turn against the paranoid Meredith. If you choose to Meredith, you choose the madness, which may extend to the entire city. (Do not forget that Meredith did not want to choose Baron, she want to dominate the city. For the order? I do not think that. Rather for her paranoia.) Meredith's paranoia are dangerous, and with her power even more.

However, if you stand to the Mage side, you see an opportunity to after defeating Meredith, you can bring back the peace of the city, as baron, with Orsino and the remaining Templars.

 

Yes, we now know that did not happen. But, I say again, when we choosed, Hawke could not have known that.



#336
Gileadan

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An interesting angle of view, there is something to it.

 

Nevertheless:

The city have city guards for the safety, the do not needed the templars' supervision...

When choosing, you could not have known that the templars will turn against the paranoid Meredith. If you choose to Meredith, you choose the madness, which may extend to the entire city. (Do not forget that Meredith did not want to choose Baron, she want to dominate the city. For the order? I do not think that. Rather for her paranoia.) Meredith's paranoia are dangerous, and with her power even more.

However, if you stand to the Mage side, you see an opportunity to after defeating Meredith, you can bring back the peace of the city, as baron, with Orsino and the remaining Templars.

 

Yes, we now know that did not happen. But, I say again, when we choosed, Hawke could not have known that.

But is it necessary to know that? The mages were a clear and present danger to the common folk of Kirkwall, whose protection I had made my top priority, much more than the templars ever were, so the decision was logical. That siding with the mages would lead to peace (despite the corruption that was undoubtedly present in the Circle) is as much speculation as the templars rising against Meredith. Truth be told, I hadn't expected anything like that to happen, I just chose to remove the bigger threat to the general populace of Kirkwall.



#337
Catilina

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But is it necessary to know that? [...]

A paranoid ruler, as Meredith, with an army behind her back is a pretty big threat for the city.



#338
Asdrubael Vect

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But is it necessary to know that? The mages were a clear and present danger to the common folk of Kirkwall, whose protection I had made my top priority, much more than the templars ever were, so the decision was logical. That siding with the mages would lead to peace (despite the corruption that was undoubtedly present in the Circle) is as much speculation as the templars rising against Meredith. Truth be told, I hadn't expected anything like that to happen, I just chose to remove the bigger threat to the general populace of Kirkwall.

Templars with Meredith and Elthina was a Kirkwall threat sinse the beginning

 

they kill Kirkwall ruler and put Dumar puppet on throne after kirkwall was sick of Oralis Templars and try to exile them as Ferelden did

 

They start conflict with qunari(and it was a mages who play a huge role in taking city back, Orsino by himself kills a lot of qunari) and after they rule city and not even care to find new one like Dunar as they kill his son

 

they was opress and kill nobles and those peoples who was not like them as their rule, even templars who was try to go against them and side with nobles and mages who run from circles to fight for kirkwall freadom

 

Elthina dissobey a new Divine order who send lelianna and she was kill many nonmages and mages who try to kill elthina

 

And Anders was a hero of kirkwall common peoples and some worship him as we know in DA3 as Sebastian try to start a holy war but was stopped

 

And yeah Kirkwall Templars does not serve Kirkwall and later was not serve Chantry itself



#339
Catilina

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[...]

And Anders was a hero of kirkwall common peoples and some worship him as we know in DA3 as Sebastian try to start a holy war but was stopped

[...]

Again I broadly agree…

 

I'm not sure that Anders would be a hero in the eyes of the people of Kirkwall. The explosion utterly impossible by all sorts of compromise (not to mention the innocent victims). I agree with his goals, not his method.



#340
Asdrubael Vect

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Again I broadly agree…

 

I'm not sure that Anders would be a hero in the eyes of the people of Kirkwall. The explosion utterly impossible by all sorts of compromise (not to mention the innocent victims). I agree with his goals, not his method.

and he was what we know from DAI, common peoples consider him as one(and some of them was ready to die for him in DA2)...he have some problems with others(ex circle mages) cos of his deamon possesion and he leave them but in Kirkwal he have many supporters as Sebastian try to conquer city and deal with them as(if he was alive) hunt anders



#341
straykat

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I would easily like this choice as a mage, if they didn't become Viscount.

 

Even Gaider admitted that was a mistake. Too bad it can't be undone.


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#342
Catilina

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and he was what we know from DAI, common peoples consider him as one(and some of them was ready to die for him in DA2)...he have some problems with others(ex circle mages) cos of his deamon possesion and he leave them but in Kirkwal he have many supporters as Sebastian try to conquer city and deal with them as(if he was alive) hunt anders

 

The revolutionaries are always divisive. I also have mixed feelings regarding any revolution. Sometimes I agree with the goals, but it never ends, as people imagine. They mostly definitely disgusting ending...  Okay, that's a bit beyond the scope of the topic... ;)

 

The point is that Anders has served its purpose, indeed, the Magi freed in Kirkwall, and in some another Circle the mages get courage to fight for freedom, therefore truly be called a hero in the eyes of many. The amuck of the red Templars is not his fault.



#343
straykat

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I definitely blame the Red Temps for their own stupidity.... and maybe the culmination of even older problems. Crackheads are never a good thing, in the longterm. Or jailers. But especially not Crackhead Jailers. :P


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#344
Catilina

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I definitely blame the Red Temps for their own stupidity.... and maybe the culmination of even older problems. Crackheads are never a good thing, in the longterm. Or jailers. But especially not Crackhead Jailers. :P

Mads with weapons, drug and super power ... charming! ;)



#345
straykat

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Even when I onced sided with Templars in DAI, I felt bad for them... at that moment when they break the barrier to get to Envy and hold up their little crackhead cannisters. Like it's some kind of Holy Act. It's pathetic.

 

Same with Evangeline in Asunder, when she keeps going back to her leader to get her dose of lyrium. It's sad.



#346
Catilina

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Even when I onced sided with Templars in DAI, I felt bad for them... at that moment when they break the barrier to get to Envy and hold up their little crackhead cannisters. Like it's some kind of Holy Act. It's pathetic.

I've never stood on the side of the Templars in DA series (except once at the end of the game in  the DA2, for Carver). Maybe i will try once in the DA:I... but, I dont know. I will see, i have unfinished games, and i have not too much times.



#347
straykat

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I find it easy to do it in DAO. Just not as much the others. DA2 the least.

 

But DAI makes me pity them the most. Although I like one possible ending (never had it yet) where a Divine Leliana has the Templars just become wandering do-gooders. Without all of the other problems. I like this... Just normal people trying to make the world a better place. It's what Templars (or Seekers) should have been. Not jailing and controlling people, getting addicted to crap. That attracts ALL the wrong type of recruits. The opposite of do-gooders.


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#348
Gileadan

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Heh. I get the impression that while I clearly feel that I made a "lesser evil" choice, some people seem to think that going along with their murderous abomination buddy Anders and bloodmage supreme Orsino was actually a *good* thing.

In the end, I couldn't make my preferred choice anyway: stand back, let both sides tear each other to shreds, put down whatever was left of the winning side, and be hailed as a hero and next Viscount for good.

Death to all extremists.

#349
straykat

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Heh. I get the impression that while I clearly feel that I made a "lesser evil" choice, some people seem to think that going along with their murderous abomination buddy Anders and bloodmage supreme Orsino was actually a *good* thing.

In the end, I couldn't make my preferred choice anyway: stand back, let both sides tear each other to shreds, put down whatever was left of the winning side, and be hailed as a hero and next Viscount for good.

Death to all extremists.

 

Well, I killed even a romanced Anders, but sided with the mages. Figure that :P

 

He forced Hawke's hand in my mind...and they weren't going to kill the Circle mages because of Meredith's shoddy reasoning. They're totally irrelevant.


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#350
Gileadan

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Well, I killed even a romanced Anders, but sided with the mages. Figure that :P
 
He forced Hawke's hand in my mind...and they weren't going to kill the Circle mages because of Meredith's shoddy reasoning. They're totally irrelevant.

Yeah, I felt that my hand was forced too, except in the other direction. Only one way to prove now that not all mages are terrorist nutters...

To me as the player, this entire forced choice was just the final insult in a railroaded storyline that crapped all over my character motivation at every turn. I didn't want to work for Petrice in Shepherding Wolves, I had all the sovereigns for Bartrand already. But the expedition wouldn't start before I had "taken care of all my business in Kirkwall".

I didn't give a hoot about the Qunari or what they wanted, and would have just walked up to their boss cow to make them choose submission, eviction or termination.

I wanted to tell Anders that our business was concluded after getting the maps, but he stuck around like old chewing gum on a bumper. Mages and templars, see above. :P