538 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

Yeah, I felt that my hand was forced too, except in the other direction. Only one way to prove now that not all mages are terrorist nutters...

To me as the player, this entire forced choice was just the final insult in a railroaded storyline that crapped all over my character motivation at every turn. I didn't want to work for Petrice in Shepherding Wolves, I had all the sovereigns for Bartrand already. But the expedition wouldn't start before I had "taken care of all my business in Kirkwall".

I didn't give a hoot about the Qunari or what they wanted, and would have just walked up to their boss cow to make them choose submission, eviction or termination.

I wanted to tell Anders that our business was concluded after getting the maps, but he stuck around like old chewing gum on a bumper. Mages and templars, see above.

 

I actually liked the Qunari story quite a bit. I know the Petrice part railroads, but I let it slide. I like that Arishok and Hawke both kind of/sorta act as people who defend "justice" when they think there is none. And then butt heads themselves over who does it better. This is why I liked Loghain too. Except replace justice with "defending Ferelden" or something. As far as their villains go, they're some of the better ones.

[Patricia08]

Prepare for 14 pages of debate going around in circles.

Here's what it comes down to:

1) The templars are more likely to win.

2) Kirkwall's Circle is hopelessly corrupt and we cannot allow these blood mages to go free and wreak havoc.

3) Hawke recognizes s/he needs the support of the templars to become viscount.

 

Well your prediction of 14 pages came true it went even past that   . 

[Catilina]

Heh. I get the impression that while I clearly feel that I made a "lesser evil" choice, some people seem to think that going along with their murderous abomination buddy Anders and bloodmage supreme Orsino was actually a *good* thing.

In the end, I couldn't make my preferred choice anyway: stand back, let both sides tear each other to shreds, put down whatever was left of the winning side, and be hailed as a hero and next Viscount for good.

Death to all extremists.

 

My Hawkes spoke with Cullen always at the Gallows. Cullen said: He do not know already, he working for the templars order, or Meredith. His small uncertainty confirmed my Hawkes' belief Meredith are paranoid and dangerous. (Cullen is a very devoted templar in that time, as we know.)

 

No right or wrong choice, the only choice was to turn against Meredith.

 

(Anders' fate was variable in my stories, it happened that Hawke killed him, and it also happened to let him live. The latter was more satisfactory, beause I hated Sebastian's blackmail, better than Anders' lie.)

[sjsharp2011]

My mage Hawke sided with her to save the reputation of mages. The public are not going to blame Anders for the destruction, they are going to blame mages as a whole. To have a mage help her, there could still be some semblance of peace.

yeah my mage Hawkes usually back the Templars mostly to help protect Carver and also to try to convince the Templars to let the innocent mages go as they feel you can't condemn all of them for the crimes of a select few. This way they hope they can at least save some of them. My warrior/rogue Hawkes tend to side with the mages though again mostly in order to protect my little sis Bethany.

[Catilina]

yeah my mage Hawkes usually back the Templars mostly to help protect Carver and also to try to convince the Templars to let the innocent mages go as they feel you can't condemn all of them for the crimes of a select few. This way they hope they can at least save some of them. My warrior/rogue Hawkes tend to side with the mages though again mostly in order to protect my little sis Bethany.

This is why one of my Hawkes stood back the Templars at the end of story. (The others were all on the side of the Mages, regardless of whether Carver was a Templar, Grey Warden or dead.)

[Beerfish]

I sided with Meredith the majority of the time, until of course when she went totally bonkers.  And in the end she was 100% correct about the mages and good old Orsino. 

[Catilina]

I sided with Meredith the majority of the time, until of course when she went totally bonkers.  And in the end she was 100% correct about the mages and good old Orsino. 

The projections are like hers, a sort of self-fulfilling prophecies.

For example: If someone tied me, because he fears that I'm going to hurt him, if I can get rid of, most likely I give him a huge punch in the face.  Although I'm basically a peaceful people ... That is why he can be happy about that, behold he predicted: I will hurt him.

[Gileadan]

The projections are like hers, a sort of self-fulfilling prophecies.

For example: If someone tied me, because he fears that I'm going to hurt him, if I can get rid of, most likely I give him a huge punch in the face.  Although I'm basically a peaceful people ... That is why he can be happy about that, behold he predicted: I will hurt him.

That analogy would work if mages only hurt templars, who are after all the ones who'd do the tying up here. But that's not the case, is it?

A more fitting analogy would be that because your parents grounded you, you later beat up every kid in your street. And blamed your parents for your streak of violence.

[Catilina]

That analogy would work if mages only hurt templars, who are after all the ones who'd do the tying up here. But that's not the case, is it?

A more fitting analogy would be that because your parents grounded you, you later beat up every kid in your street. And blamed your parents for your streak of violence.

I think: no.

[MisterJB]

The city have city guards for the safety, the do not needed the templars' supervision...

 

Regarding matters related to common criminals sure, there should be no Templar supervision. However, we are talking about a crysis where mages are on the streets, causing Havoc, becoming Abominations, killing Kirkwallers. Naturally, to stop this, one should side with the Templars.

 

When choosing, you could not have known that the templars will turn against the paranoid Meredith. If you choose to Meredith, you choose the madness, which may extend to the entire city. (Do not forget that Meredith did not want to choose Baron, she want to dominate the city. For the order? I do not think that. Rather for her paranoia.) Meredith's paranoia are dangerous, and with her power even more.

Sure but that is a problem to be dealt with when mages are not in the streets of Kirkwall killing untold number of innocent people.

 

 

However, if you stand to the Mage side, you see an opportunity to after defeating Meredith, you can bring back the peace of the city, as baron, with Orsino and the remaining Templars.

 

Yes, we now know that did not happen. But, I say again, when we choosed, Hawke could not have known that.

 

And somehow, Hawke, who was fighting against impossible odds with mages against Templars, could know that, when the dust settled, he would not only be victorious, but also in a position to become Viscount with Templars allies?

 

There is a huge leap in logic there.

 

[Catilina]

Regarding matters related to common criminals sure, there should be no Templar supervision. However, we are talking about a crysis where mages are on the streets, causing Havoc, becoming Abominations, killing Kirkwallers. Naturally, to stop this, one should side with the Templars.

 

Sure but that is a problem to be dealt with when mages are not in the streets of Kirkwall killing untold number of innocent people.

 

[...]

 

There is a huge leap in logic there.

 

With huge templar help! Do not forget: this abominations / blood mages usually protected by a squad of templars... against the mage-friend Hawke, and Orsino, who sent Hawke for investigated this mess... Not Meredith, ORSINO. (Perhaps Meredith is already busy with caress of her beautiful red sword. Hers own Templar did not trust her: slowly they shift towards to the mage side!) Meredith here has been absolutely mad and inappropriate. (But this is metaknowledge, Hawke just know: Meredith recently did not quite come out of his room.)

_______

 

Yes, the story have some logical leap, no doubt.

[Seraphim24]

Orsino was pretty totally cray cray in many ways, that's at least a factor.

[GoldenGail3]

Rude! :0

(I can't help myself)

It was rude of you to become a monster AT the last moment! Gosh, and I even sided with you when you decided to go all gunhoo in me for no reason. Yah, I don't like you. Or Merdith. I pefer Ivring and Gregior over you two.

[Dai Grepher]

My archer Marian (default appearance) sided with Meredith for a few reasons.

She felt Meredith's pain, in that Meredith lost her sister. She could imagine how painful that would be to lose Bethany.

Next, Bethany was in the Circle. So siding with Meredith, who was essentially the law, seemed like the best way to save Bethany and ensure that she had a place in the newly reformed Circle, which Marian thought would be established afterward. Opposed to say, siding with the mages, which would make them all criminals on the run. So her main reason was to save Bethany. Doesn't mean she didn't feel bad about all the other good mages who would likely die, and when she could, she allowed surrendering mages to live.

There was also the fact that templars are typically stronger against mages, and as an archer, Marian herself would have been more effective against those who don't wear armor or carry shields.

Marian also saw that some mages in the Circle were indeed corrupt. She did fear that mages would be unreliable allies. Some could be bloodmages. Some might turn into abominations once the fighting began. They were just too much of a risk.

It was also better to hear Orsino's confession and have Bethany hear it too. It's also great when Marian defends Bethany from Meredith.

And I personally believe that siding with templars provides the more logical storyline. It explains Orsino's transformation in that he was desperate. He shouldn't feel desperate if Hawke sides with him. In fact, BioWare even stated that they were going to have him not turn into a harvester if you sided with mages, but they thought it would take too much away from the final level. So instead he freaks out for no real reason. Also, sparing the mages who surrender and then preventing her from killing Bethany explains Meredith's paranoia against Marian better. There might even be some envy at work. Meredith sees that Marian gets to keep her mage sister, while she lost her own sister. Better storyline this way. Makes more sense. It also gives the templars a reason to disobey Meredith. Hawke just helped them, and now Meredith wants to kill her too? They can't stand by that.

As for how this plays out in Inquisition. It plays out quite well. Cassandra confirms to the Inquisitor that Meredith's actions were considered to be justified by the Chantry. My male Trevelyan mage Inquisitor also sided with the templars, and agreed with Marian's choice. Marian also holds her own against Stroud's criticisms in the Fade. She vocally opposes bloodmagic, which she did in DA2, so that matches up.

[Catilina]

1. In the circle of annulment included ALL mages, then also Bethany. If you sided with Meredith, you agree to her execution. (I prefer Carver, but I do not  hate poor Bethany so much! ...)

 

2. When they asked about who to join, you do not know Orsino also go crazy.

[Qun00]

The most important characters that defend mage freedom never concern themselves with how things will work without the Circle.

They only care about dismantling the system, not building a better one in its place.

[ThomasBlaine]

The most important characters that defend mage freedom never concern themselves with how things will work without the Circle.

They only care about dismantling the system, not building a better one in its place.

 

Dismantling the system, yes, and not getting rounded up by large, angry and heavily armed men, lobotomized and put to slave labor while just trying to live their lives. It's hard to build a new system around that. And the whole point of the different mage fraternities is that they do have lots of ideas for how mages could fit into society, which are all rendered moot and pointless by the absolutism of the existing structure.

[Mike3207]

Anders blew up the Chantry.

Orsino turned to blood magic and became a monster.

95% of the Kirkwall mages became blood mages. 

 

I like Bethany as well as anyone, but right now it's hard coming up with other reasons to not support Meredith. After all, Meredith isn't any more crazy than anyone else in Kirkwall.

[Catilina]

Anders blew up the Chantry.

Orsino turned to blood magic and became a monster.

95% of the Kirkwall mages became blood mages. 

 

I like Bethany as well as anyone, but right now it's hard coming up with other reasons to not support Meredith. After all, Meredith isn't any more crazy than anyone else in Kirkwall.

She even crazier than them.

[Lord of War]

The idea that anything Meredith or her cronies does throughout the game is at all justifiable is almost as absurd as believing that massacring a fairly large group of innocents for "the greater good" is ever the right course of action. In fact, everything wrong with Kirkwall during DA2 has one source: Meredith and her Templars, backed by cowardly/incompetent/totally-cool-with-oppression-&-butchery Chantry do-nothings like Elthina. 

 

Meredith proved over and over again that her idiotic, brutal methods only produce discontent and malificarum, and never actually manages to stop them. Look at, say, Huon and Evelina. One was a normal married man in the alienage until the Templars locked him up in the Circle for 10 years (never to see his wife again), and one actively helped refugees escape the Blight, and then turned herself over the Templars (and also asked them to help the refugees, which they refused to do). Ten years in Meredith's Circle destroyed them: it turns out constant isolation and intimidation might just cause make mages desperate and hopeless enough to be possessed!

 

Everyone sane in Kirwall recognizes this. The nobility, Thrask's templars, most of the public, they want Meredith out. Helping her at the end only means she'll go further with the next group of mages, and start the whole thing over again. As for being viscount, here's the thing, you aren't: you are the templar junta's pretty new face, with no more power than Dumar.

[Beerfish]

The projections are like hers, a sort of self-fulfilling prophecies.

For example: If someone tied me, because he fears that I'm going to hurt him, if I can get rid of, most likely I give him a huge punch in the face.  Although I'm basically a peaceful people ... That is why he can be happy about that, behold he predicted: I will hurt him.

There are buckets of examples of mages behaving very badly totally aside from being threatened.  Orsino himself was behaving very badly before things came to a head.  There seems to be a theme that because some templars were pretty bad and that mages were worried about Merediths instability that all of the things they did are excusable.  I simply do not accept it at all. 

 

The mages and their leaders managed to do something which is very hard to do, make Meredith look like she was justified and reasonable in her actions.

[Catilina]

There are buckets of examples of mages behaving very badly totally aside from being threatened.  Orsino himself was behaving very badly before things came to a head.  There seems to be a theme that because some templars were pretty bad and that mages were worried about Merediths instability that all of the things they did are excusable.  I simply do not accept it at all. 

 

The mages and their leaders managed to do something which is very hard to do, make Meredith look like she was justified and reasonable in her actions.

Orsino was always respectable patient, except at the end, which I do not really wonder. His nerves break down. 

[Lord of War]

There are buckets of examples of mages behaving very badly totally aside from being threatened.  Orsino himself was behaving very badly before things came to a head.  There seems to be a theme that because some templars were pretty bad and that mages were worried about Merediths instability that all of the things they did are excusable.  I simply do not accept it at all. 

 

The mages and their leaders managed to do something which is very hard to do, make Meredith look like she was justified and reasonable in her actions.

 

Yeah? In the Circle that was going to be purged? Other than Orsino (who hadn't done anything objectionable yet, bar Quentin). Name a few.

 

It's true that there are isolated incidents, people like Quentin, DuPuis, and Tarohne, but I'd argue that the Circle system, embodied at its most oppressive by Meredith, at least partially to blame for their crimes. Everyone knows the Circle is a a terrible place to "live" (I use the term loosely), so when someone realizes they have magic, they don't go to be trained, they hide. They find other renegades, they rage against the system, they take inspiration from the only place where mages are free, and they're warped by it all.

 

By the way, these people, the ones who the Templars should actually be going after? They can't catch them. They can't stop them. They prove again and again that all they're really capable of is beating beating and lobotomizing people who are already in cages, or butchering people who have been conditioned to submit for their whole life. If the Templars could do more than bully the mages and the city guard, Leandra might have even lived!

 

Still, I'm not trying to excuse those mages, but I am saying that there would be far less of them with fewer Merediths in the world. If she's allowed to have her way in Kirkwall, it's only going to lead to more fear of the system, and more mages falling by the wayside.

[Beerfish]

Yeah? In the Circle that was going to be purged? Other than Orsino (who hadn't done anything objectionable yet, bar Quentin). Name a few.

 

Bar Qunetin?  That is a pretty big bar.  Also you do not up and turn into a harvester on a whim.  As for the circle being purged, why was it going to be purged?  Because Orsino totally refused to allow the templars to search the tower.  ONLY after his lame bluff was called did he say oh hey go and search i will help you!  but it was too late.

 

 

Still, I'm not trying to excuse those mages, but I am saying that there would be far less of them with fewer Merediths in the world. If she's allowed to have her way in Kirkwall, it's only going to lead to more fear of the system, and more mages falling by the wayside.

Meredith was badly affected by the past history of her sister almost to the point of mental illness, the lyrium added to that end.  I'll stick to my previous comment.  Orsino by his deviant dealings with quetnin and by 100% obviously being knee deep in blood magic (see my comment about the Harvester) actually gave Meredith sufficient ammo for her suspicions and actions.

 

And non of this is even addressing the other litany of dubious actions my mages,  (see the Starkhaven circle story arc.)

 

As bat crazy as Meredith was she was proven to be correct, Orsinos actions at the end validated her actions.  I would wager that if you put the whole story to the general populace they would see it that way.

[Catilina]

Meredith was badly affected by the past history of her sister almost to the point of mental illness, the lyrium added to that end.  I'll stick to my previous comment.  Orsino by his deviant dealings with quetnin and by 100% obviously being knee deep in blood magic (see my comment about the Harvester) actually gave Meredith sufficient ammo for her suspicions and actions.

 

And non of this is even addressing the other litany of dubious actions my mages,  (see the Starkhaven circle story arc.)

 

As bat crazy as Meredith was she was proven to be correct, Orsinos actions at the end validated her actions.  I would wager that if you put the whole story to the general populace they would see it that way.

 

Punish innocent people, because they may become dangerous, unacceptable. And: yes: DANGEROUS. I said: it is a self-fulfilling prophecy...