538 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord of War]

Meredith was badly affected by the past history of her sister almost to the point of mental illness, the lyrium added to that end.  I'll stick to my previous comment.  Orsino by his deviant dealings with quetnin and by 100% obviously being knee deep in blood magic (see my comment about the Harvester) actually gave Meredith sufficient ammo for her suspicions and actions.

 

And non of this is even addressing the other litany of dubious actions my mages,  (see the Starkhaven circle story arc.)

 

As bat crazy as Meredith was she was proven to be correct, Orsinos actions at the end validated her actions.  I would wager that if you put the whole story to the general populace they would see it that way.

 

Even with Orsino's "corruption" (I think how much he knew about Quentin's research is arguable, and so is the knowing the theory of blood magic as opposed to actively practicing it), why did the entire Circle need to be killed/tranquilized? Grace was already dead.

 

One person's possible crimes don't validate the deaths of hundreds, no matter what bigoted, Chantry indoctrinated peasants think.

[Beregond5]

Personally, I can't side with Meredith. It's true that there are many instances of blood mages and corruption, but she never really tries to deal with what looks like to be the real problem and act accordingly. Iirc, Hawke discovers codexes that say the veil is too thin and the corrupting influences are all that much stronger because of that. And the place is filled to the brim with powerful demons, like Audacity and the Pride demon in the third act, the demons in the mines, the desire demon controlling the Followers of She, as well one of the Forgotten Ones - all of them in a single city rather than spread out in all of Ferelden like in Dragon Age Origins. Templars aren't meant to be keeping mages in control only, but to fight demonic corruption wherever they can find it - Sir Otto does just that in the first game.

Meredith, however, seems to just sit there and wait for Hawke to do *her* job. Even if Hawke hadn't fought the Arishok, he was slowly and steadily showing everybody her shortcomings, and she was aware of that, hence her refusal to allow the election of a Viscount- she already suspected that not only the nobles, but even a lot of her Templars would want Hawke. She might have been right about some things (then again, even a broken clock can tell the right time correctly twice a day) but, ultimately, she wasn't thinking about the good of Kirkwall by the time of the 3rd Act. That's more evident when, even though she *had* the real culprit for the bombing, she decided to put the Right of Annulment in effect without the Divine's permission- an illegal act. She wasn't interested in justice, she wanted revenge (revenge that she possibly have wanted ever since what happened to her sister, making her look at everything under a black and white prism - that, however, seems speculation, more like, so I won't go further on that train of thought ).

And before people start about Orsino, yes, he did communicate with Quentin. But I am not sure if at any point in his letters did he verbally condone with him stealing bodies to resurrect his wife. It's too vague to ascertain how much he knew about this. What is implied is that he was told about how to connect human limbs to create a whole (living?) creature, but nowhere do we discover that he knew how Quentin had acquired that kind of information. 'Studies' is too vague a term to reach the 'Omg, he's killing women" conclusion. Even if that's not the case and he knew all along, however, again, that was Meredith's responsibility to discover and she failed that. Again. In my book, personally, she has the lion's share of screwing things up, and, consequently, (my) Hawke can't work with her under any circumstances. And I didn't even touch the red lyrium issue since we're meant to find out at the very end of the game and go 'Ok, no wonder she acted so crazy' but, as I mentioned before, it looks like there were plenty of problems even before the red lyrium came into the picture.

tl;dr I can't side with her, and I don't think I'll ever be able to.

[mrs_anomaly]

I just don't and never will and never have- but I can see why people do it- I just don't agree at all (unless for roleplay reasons and fun making different decision reasons). But to each their own. I play my game the way I want to- I'm not going to criticize anyone for going with Merideth for the lulz. But- if someone were my RL friend I would question their sanity and have many discussions. 

[Lazarillo]

And before people start about Orsino, yes, he did communicate with Quentin. But I am not sure if at any point in his letters did he verbally condone with him stealing bodies to resurrect his wife. It's too vague to ascertain how much he knew about this. What is implied is that he was told about how to connect human limbs to create a whole (living?) creature, but nowhere do we discover that he knew how Quentin had acquired that kind of information. 'Studies' is too vague a term to reach the 'Omg, he's killing women" conclusion. Even if that's not the case and he knew all along, however, again, that was Meredith's responsibility to discover and she failed that. Again. In my book, personally, she has the lion's share of screwing things up, and, consequently, (my) Hawke can't work with her under any circumstances. And I didn't even touch the red lyrium issue since we're meant to find out at the very end of the game and go 'Ok, no wonder she acted so crazy' but, as I mentioned before, it looks like there were plenty of problems even before the red lyrium came into the picture.

In the case of my canon Hawke, I think there's an important distinction to make between "taking Meredith's side" and "agreeing with Meredith". For one thing, it's possible to spare quite a few of the Mages if you take her side (including Bethany, and several others who explicitly surrender, plus, presumably, any survivors from after Orsino went down). For another, and related the passage quoted above, it's very possible to believe the Meredith is part of the problem, but also decide that Mages have gone "too far", and you can only handle one issue at a time.

I'm replaying through the game at the moment, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but does Hawke encounter any non-party Apostate mages that aren't evil? It's possible to know Orsino was supporting Quentin back in Act II (although, as noted, the exact extent of which is not clear, but at best, it's implied Orsino didn't care anyway), and the only "good" Mages I can recall offhand are Grace's group, who turn out to be lying anyway. And in the party we have Bethany (okay, yeah, she's pretty innocent), Merill (who's not deliberately evil, but is dangerously foolish), and Anders (who just got finished blowing a sizeable chunk of Kirkwall the **** up). And that's not even getting into Leliana and her Tevinter conspiracy. I feel like Hawke has a lot of justification for assuming the Circle as a whole is not salvageable by the time the end of the game rolls around. And while s/he might feel that the Templars are similarly problematic, just nuking both sides at once isn't an option.

[Catilina]

In the case of my canon Hawke, I think there's an important distinction to make between "taking Meredith's side" and "agreeing with Meredith". For one thing, it's possible to spare quite a few of the Mages if you take her side (including Bethany, and several others who explicitly surrender, plus, presumably, any survivors from after Orsino went down). For another, and related the passage quoted above, it's very possible to believe the Meredith is part of the problem, but also decide that Mages have gone "too far", and you can only handle one issue at a time.

I'm replaying through the game at the moment, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but does Hawke encounter any non-party Apostate mages that aren't evil? It's possible to know Orsino was supporting Quentin back in Act II (although, as noted, the exact extent of which is not clear, but at best, it's implied Orsino didn't care anyway), and the only "good" Mages I can recall offhand are Grace's group, who turn out to be lying anyway. And in the party we have Bethany (okay, yeah, she's pretty innocent), Merill (who's not deliberately evil, but is dangerously foolish), and Anders (who just got finished blowing a sizeable chunk of Kirkwall the **** up). And that's not even getting into Leliana and her Tevinter conspiracy. I feel like Hawke has a lot of justification for assuming the Circle as a whole is not salvageable by the time the end of the game rolls around. And while s/he might feel that the Templars are similarly problematic, just nuking both sides at once isn't an option.

Most of this apostates are not evil; rather desperate.

[Beregond5]

In the case of my canon Hawke, I think there's an important distinction to make between "taking Meredith's side" and "agreeing with Meredith". For one thing, it's possible to spare quite a few of the Mages if you take her side (including Bethany, and several others who explicitly surrender, plus, presumably, any survivors from after Orsino went down). For another, and related the passage quoted above, it's very possible to believe the Meredith is part of the problem, but also decide that Mages have gone "too far", and you can only handle one issue at a time.I'm replaying through the game at the moment, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but does Hawke encounter any non-party Apostate mages that aren't evil? It's possible to know Orsino was supporting Quentin back in Act II (although, as noted, the exact extent of which is not clear, but at best, it's implied Orsino didn't care anyway), and the only "good" Mages I can recall offhand are Grace's group, who turn out to be lying anyway. And in the party we have Bethany (okay, yeah, she's pretty innocent), Merill (who's not deliberately evil, but is dangerously foolish), and Anders (who just got finished blowing a sizeable chunk of Kirkwall the **** up). And that's not even getting into Leliana and her Tevinter conspiracy. I feel like Hawke has a lot of justification for assuming the Circle as a whole is not salvageable by the time the end of the game rolls around. And while s/he might feel that the Templars are similarly problematic, just nuking both sides at once isn't an option.

I definitely see what you mean, and I can understand a player (and their Hawke, by extension), deciding that they had just enough of Kirkwall mages and them constantly holding the idiot ball. Even Hawke himself declares that with the right dialogue. And there's also the (very logical) counter-argument that, even if Orsino isn't as responsible for Quentin as he's made out to be, he was certainly responsible for the mages that were in his Circle, And he failed in his duties just as badly.

I guess, one other thing that rather tips the scale just a bit more against Meredith for me was comparing her with Gregoir in the first game. Gregoir, at the sight of the first abominations, sealed the door and awaited for instructions. It's true that he wasn't that hesitant to agree with a warden to clean up the tower when the chance was offered, but he probably figured that he didn't really have any authority over them. And yet, he's shown as reasonable about it, and if you help the mages, he doesn't give a What the Hell speech nor does he try to kill you over it. Unlike Meredith.

But as I said, I can see why people side with her, and I don't consider the option 'evil'. I just can't choose that option for myself and my Hawke.

(ETA: A rather logical, albeit flimsy, reason that we don't get the chance to see a 'good guy' mage, for lack of a better way of putting it, is that Varric probably didn't consider those kind of encounters relevant to the story he's telling Cassandra. He's trying to explain how Kirkwall reached its breaking point along with Hawke's involvement, thus he keeps the things that he believes are crucial. Except that well, a narrator isn't necessarily reliable, not out of malintention, but because that's how he interpreted the situation.)

[SmilesJA]

My main concern with siding Merideth, is that you get the option to kill Bethany. Why?

[Lazarillo]

(ETA: A rather logical, albeit flimsy, reason that we don't get the chance to see a 'good guy' mage, for lack of a better way of putting it, is that Varric probably didn't consider those kind of encounters relevant to the story he's telling Cassandra. He's trying to explain how Kirkwall reached its breaking point along with Hawke's involvement, thus he keeps the things that he believes are crucial. Except that well, a narrator isn't necessarily reliable, not out of malintention, but because that's how he interpreted the situation.)

This is an interesting point. There are a few things that I sort of excuse by tracing back to the narrative frame. I'm a little more hesitant to accept this one, though. It's a shame we never got more connected to Anders' "mage underground", because then maybe we'd see a bit more of the other side. As it is, I'm nearing the end of the aforementioned replay, and I count a grand total of two Mages I've met who have been perfectly innocent: Ella (the girl Alrik want to Tranquil-rape, because even a Templar sympathizer like me would just as soon fry the bastard), and Solivitus, the guy who gives you the "Herbalist's Tasks" mission. There's also Bethany, of course, but I'm playing a Mage run.

And thinking on it, this is actually an interesting pattern: all three of the "good" Mages are the ones who are, for the most part, pretty happy at the Circle (even Ella will return and be content with the decision despite what Alrik tried to do). It starts a sort of chicken-egg argument based on what Catilina mentioned above. Are so many Mages turning evil because they're desperate to escape, or are so many mages desperate to escape because they are evil?

[Catilina]

What Hawke knows, when s/he must to choose side:

Meredith paranoid (a lot of information shows this). A paranoid person in the high position very dangerous, ergo she totally inadequate for her position.

Meredith maybe powerhungry: she prevents the Baron choice, and want to control the whole Kirkwall. (This latter may result from paranoia also)

Orsino loyal to the Circle, but does not trust in Meredith.

 

If Hawke do not hate mages, or afraid of them extremelly, s/he can't choose Meredith. I think.

 

And if this doesn't enough to convince you ...

Spoiler

 

(If Carver had become templar, Hawke can choose templar side for his/her brother.)

[Beregond5]

This is an interesting point. There are a few things that I sort of excuse by tracing back to the narrative frame. I'm a little more hesitant to accept this one, though. It's a shame we never got more connected to Anders' "mage underground", because then maybe we'd see a bit more of the other side. As it is, I'm nearing the end of the aforementioned replay, and I count a grand total of two Mages I've met who have been perfectly innocent: Ella (the girl Alrik want to Tranquil-rape, because even a Templar sympathizer like me would just as soon fry the bastard), and Solivitus, the guy who gives you the "Herbalist's Tasks" mission. There's also Bethany, of course, but I'm playing a Mage run.And thinking on it, this is actually an interesting pattern: all three of the "good" Mages are the ones who are, for the most part, pretty happy at the Circle (even Ella will return and be content with the decision despite what Alrik tried to do). It starts a sort of chicken-egg argument based on what Catilina mentioned above. Are so many Mages turning evil because they're desperate to escape, or are so many mages desperate to escape because they are evil?

I think we also have Emil De Launcet as one of the harmless mages. And, if I remember right, he and Ella didn't want to escape the Circle out of fear. Iirc, she wanted to see her family, and he basically wanted to have sex.

I agree, though. An option from a narrative standpoint would have been to help Anders escort some apostates and have Hawke talk to them and see their view of the Kirkwall Circle, in place of / or like having to escort Ketojan in the First Act. Unfortunately, we can only work with what we have, just like Catilina pointed out, and draw our conclusions from there.

[Catilina]

And thinking on it, this is actually an interesting pattern: all three of the "good" Mages are the ones who are, for the most part, pretty happy at the Circle (even Ella will return and be content with the decision despite what Alrik tried to do). It starts a sort of chicken-egg argument based on what Catilina mentioned above. Are so many Mages turning evil because they're desperate to escape, or are so many mages desperate to escape because they are evil?

I can't imagine, what can make happy a mage in the Kirkwall Circle ...

That was a prison.

 

Rather, they are hopeless, desperate.

[fhs33721]

My main concern with siding Merideth, is that you get the option to kill Bethany. Why?

For people who want to roleplay as the most despicable being in all of Kirkwall I guess?

[Asha'bellanar]

Mage freedom is more important than everyone else's freedom.

Anders? Is that you, honey?

 

[Catilina]

Anders? Is that you, honey?

 

Who called me?

[Spirit Vanguard]

Who called me?

"This is why I can't take you anywhere nice."

[GoldenGail3]

"This is why I can't take you anywhere nice."

"I'm also fond of the who's, what's, why's and how's."

[Fylimar]

I think we also have Emil De Launcet as one of the harmless mages. And, if I remember right, he and Ella didn't want to escape the Circle out of fear. Iirc, she wanted to see her family, and he basically wanted to have sex.

I agree, though. An option from a narrative standpoint would have been to help Anders escort some apostates and have Hawke talk to them and see their view of the Kirkwall Circle, in place of / or like having to escort Ketojan in the First Act. Unfortunately, we can only work with what we have, just like Catilina pointed out, and draw our conclusions from there.

 

I would throw in  Alain from the Starkhaven Circle too. I always got the impression, that he wanted the same as Thrask - getting rid of Meredith and the worst bullies among her templars and then getting back to normal Circle life. It was imo Grace, who lost it.

 

And the group of apostate mages, you can do errants for in act 2 (or 3?) was pretty down to earth too, I guess. Yes, they ask you to get rid of some of the more violent templars, but I think, sooner or later Hawke would have had to deal with them anyway.

 

So apart from Sol. Emil and Ella, there are some more mages (and templars), that are not totally crazy.

 

Since I always interpreted Orsinos statement in the final battle, that he theorized with Quentin about certain types of magic (like Dorian with Alexius about time magic), I'm of the opinion, that he didn't know, what Quentin was doing, until it was too late (again like Dorian and Alexius). So for me, Orsino is a pretty decent guy too. At least, he tried until the very least moment to find a peacful solution by asking the chantry to help in the negotiations between mages and templars - and that was the best way to go about it imo. Too bad, Elthina wouldn't help - at the beginning of act 3, she sends Meredith and Orsino on their way like little children, who fight over a toy, that wasn't helping at all.

 

BTW: there is finally a mod out, that erase the whole Harvester desaster from the game - it didn't make sense for Orsinos character anyway. Not even, if Hawke sided with the templars - Orsino was powerful enough to engae a group of skilled Qunari warriors into combat and survive in act 2, he could have fought the templars without resorting to blood magic (which is imo the way of the lesser skilled and lazy mages)

[Spirit Vanguard]

Didn't read all 16 pages, so I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but beyond my personal opinions on mage politics, I would never side with Meredith because she's failing as a templar. Templars are supposedly meant to protect mages, from inside and out, so when she submits to the "anger" of Kirkwall by punishing the Circle because of Anders she's rejecting her role. Obviously, she's mad with red lyrium so there's little sense in her head, which is part of the problem.

As for whether or not "blood mages" have tainted the Circle as a whole is up for debate in that moment. The Right of Annulment based on the "possibility" of corruption is an abuse of power. In Origins, Greagoir wasn't completely against trying to save the Circle and they were literally overrun with demons, abominations and blood mages. He believed it was a dangerous and hopeless endeavor, but would still trust in Irving's word in the end.

Just some thoughts on the subject.

...
And the group of apostate mages, you can do errants for in act 2 (or 3?) was pretty down to earth too, I guess. Yes, they ask you to get rid of some of the more violent templars, but I think, sooner or later Hawke would have had to deal with them anyway.
...

What do you mean by that?

[Beregond5]

As for whether or not "blood mages" have tainted the Circle as a whole is up for debate in that moment. The Right of Annulment based on the "possibility" of corruption is an abuse of power. In Origins, Greagoir wasn't completely against trying to save the Circle and they were literally overrun with demons, abominations and blood mages. He believed it was a dangerous and hopeless endeavor, but would still trust in Irving's word in the end.

 

Indeed. If you think about it, Irving and Gregoir didn't like each other; in fact, it's stated that they were always 'at each other's throats'. However, they respected each other and they would cooperate on occasion when the safety of the Circle seemed to be at stake. This becomes quite clear in the Mage Origin, when Irving actually works with Gregoir to secure Jowan after the allegations of blood magic cropped up. And, as you pointed out, Gregoir trusted Irving's judgment when the latter said that yes, the Circle is safe once more.

 

On the other hand, you don't see that level of professionalism between Meredith and Orsino and that's also part of the problem. Both parties expect the worst from each other. Orsino doesn't trust Meredith to intervene against individuals like Sir Alrik, especially when she kept him after kicking out Templars for less offenses. And Meredith doesn't trust Orsino that he won't teach them blood magic and have them rebel against her Templars, especially after what happened with Keran and Wilmod. In fact, I think the only reason they actually cooperated at the end of Act II, it was because Hawke basically told them to shut up and suck it up due to the bigger problems at hand. After that... things actually got even worse, turning into a vicious circle.

[Fylimar]

Didn't read all 16 pages, so I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but beyond my personal opinions on mage politics, I would never side with Meredith because she's failing as a templar. Templars are supposedly meant to protect mages, from inside and out, so when she submits to the "anger" of Kirkwall by punishing the Circle because of Anders she's rejecting her role. Obviously, she's mad with red lyrium so there's little sense in her head, which is part of the problem.

As for whether or not "blood mages" have tainted the Circle as a whole is up for debate in that moment. The Right of Annulment based on the "possibility" of corruption is an abuse of power. In Origins, Greagoir wasn't completely against trying to save the Circle and they were literally overrun with demons, abominations and blood mages. He believed it was a dangerous and hopeless endeavor, but would still trust in Irving's word in the end.

Just some thoughts on the subject.


What do you mean by that?

 

By what? The quest? There is a mage underground, something like the mage collective in DAO, in Kirkwall, led by an elder woman. She is standing at the docks in act 2 and you can get some tasks from her. In some tasks you can sabotage Meredith and her more brutal templars.

[Spirit Vanguard]

Indeed. If you think about it, Irving and Gregoir didn't like each other; in fact, it's stated that they were always 'at each other's throats'. However, they respected each other and they would cooperate on occasion when the safety of the Circle seemed to be at stake. This becomes quite clear in the Mage Origin, when Irving actually works with Gregoir to secure Jowan after the allegations of blood magic cropped up. And, as you pointed out, Gregoir trusted Irving's judgment when the latter said that yes, the Circle is safe once more.

 

On the other hand, you don't see that level of professionalism between Meredith and Orsino and that's also part of the problem. Both parties expect the worst from each other. Orsino doesn't trust Meredith to intervene against individuals like Sir Alrik, especially when she kept him after kicking out Templars for less offenses. And Meredith doesn't trust Orsino that he won't teach them blood magic and have them rebel against her Templars, especially after what happened with Keran and Wilmod. In fact, I think the only reason they actually cooperated at the end of Act II, it was because Hawke basically told them to shut up and suck it up due to the bigger problems at hand. After that... things actually got even worse, turning into a vicious circle.

 

I thought the same. Irving and Greagoir weren't friends but they did respect each other enough to work together, if at odds, and were able to maintain the relationship. Wasn't perfect, but it was clearly more successful than Kirkwall. Greagoir is even relieved to see that Irving survived only to receive that playful quip of "I'm sure we'll be at each other's throats again in no time."  It should perhaps be noted that with the Jowan thing Irving also wanted Lily to be punished for her infractions too. He regrets the situation and won't let only his apprentice take the fall, but does still cooperate. Fair enough.

 

I remember being surprised at how little Orsino and Meredith regard each other after playing Origins. Mortal enemies instead of rival colleagues. Hawke really was the only reason they could tackle the qunari together -- and Meredith seems resentful that she wasn't the one to save the city. The relationship between them was beyond repair. If there hadn't been any red lyrium, perhaps things could've been different -- although I doubt by much in the long run. Like Anders said: "A quick death now or a slow death later." Kirkwall made Fereldan's Circle seem like a carefree daycare of rainbows and fuzzy kittens in comparison. "I couldn't stop them now even if I wanted to." ...WHA? Meredith, you should want to prevent genocide, not encourage it. Especially when it's your job.

 

I think there was something else to say, but I'm too tired to think...

 

...

...So for me, Orsino is a pretty decent guy too. At least, he tried until the very least moment to find a peacful solution by asking the chantry to help in the negotiations between mages and templars - and that was the best way to go about it imo. Too bad, Elthina wouldn't help - at the beginning of act 3, she sends Meredith and Orsino on their way like little children, who fight over a toy, that wasn't helping at all.

...

 

The strange thing to me is when Elthina says "Orsino is not an unreasonable man" as if he's the one who should be conceding? I suspect in the past that has been traditionally true but Meredith has broken Chantry law by abusing Tranquility. And yet... nothing? This was never brought to her attention? Does she see Meredith as more difficult to deal with than Orsino?

 

Was that strange to anyone else?

 

By what? The quest? There is a mage underground, something like the mage collective in DAO, in Kirkwall, led by an elder woman. She is standing at the docks in act 2 and you can get some tasks from her. In some tasks you can sabotage Meredith and her more brutal templars.

 

I meant when you said "but I think, sooner or later Hawke would have had to deal with them anyway."

[Fylimar]

pickpocket pearl:

Hawke dealt with a lot of mad templars and cruel blood mages, so that was a suggestion by me - sorry to not have made it clearer.

 

About Orsino and Elthina: you are right, I never understood, why Elthina said that about Orsino, when she should have questioned Meredith (too). Elthina could have done a lot to deescalate the situation, sadly she did not see the gravity of the situation (or she deliberately choose to ignore it).

 

I think, Meredith would have lost it with or without the red lyrium. She was full of fear and predjudice against mages and imo not fit to lead the templars in Kirkwall. I do understand where she comes from with her backgroundstory about her sister, but for her, a responsible action would have been to step down, because she wasn't fit to neutrally judge a mage (like Greagoir did for example).

[ModernAcademic]

I remember being surprised at how little Orsino and Meredith regard each other after playing Origins. Mortal enemies instead of rival colleagues. Hawke really was the only reason they could tackle the qunari together -- and Meredith seems resentful that she wasn't the one to save the city. The relationship between them was beyond repair. If there hadn't been any red lyrium, perhaps things could've been different -- although I doubt by much in the long run. Like Anders said: "A quick death now or a slow death later." Kirkwall made Fereldan's Circle seem like a carefree daycare of rainbows and fuzzy kittens in comparison. "I couldn't stop them now even if I wanted to." ...WHA? Meredith, you should want to prevent genocide, not encourage it. Especially when it's your job.

 

I think there was something else to say, but I'm too tired to think...

 

The strange thing to me is when Elthina says "Orsino is not an unreasonable man" as if he's the one who should be conceding? I suspect in the past that has been traditionally true but Meredith has broken Chantry law by abusing Tranquility. And yet... nothing? This was never brought to her attention? Does she see Meredith as more difficult to deal with than Orsino?

 

Was that strange to anyone else?

 

I guess the devs just wanted to force an inevitable conflict between mages and templars, but failed to shape the game's events to pass that exact impression.

 

Instead, the player feels the whole conflict is exaggerated, rather than that Kirkwall is doomed. As a result, Meredith's and Orsino's actions seem nothing but irrational as the end draws near and their final actions feel somewhat unjustified.

 

 

As for Elthina, my impression is that she was just there to maintain the status quo rather than to solve any conflicts between the Circle and the Templar Order.

The Chantry is an institution intrinsically connected to the Templar Order, for both of them are devoted to keeping mages under control. While templars are the sword, the sisters are the heart and the mind. They're the ones responsible for controlling mages not by force, but through manipulation of guilt (for magic is associated with sin. So in the eyes of the Maker, all mages are born sinners and, therefore, must be watched closely).

 

 

All in all, Elthina wasn't there to solve anything, only to maintain order when tempers flared. She could never turn against the templars, not when the Knight-Commander had expanded her power and influence so greatly ove the city. So she overlooks certain misdeeds the templars have commited, and she does that by choice.

But indeed Elthina was wrong. She should have done more to prevent the crimes perpetrated by the Templar Order, fought corruption within the Order and listened to the Circle mages, so as to know about the cases of abuse and bring an end to them. And it's her role as a peace keeper, not a watcher over injustices commited against mages that leads Anders to choose her as the victim for the terrorist act - or rebellious one, depending on your view of the conflict - that would seal her fate and start the revolution.

[MisterJB]

Didn't read all 16 pages, so I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but beyond my personal opinions on mage politics, I would never side with Meredith because she's failing as a templar. Templars are supposedly meant to protect mages, from inside and out, so when she submits to the "anger" of Kirkwall by punishing the Circle because of Anders she's rejecting her role. Obviously, she's mad with red lyrium so there's little sense in her head, which is part of the problem.

As for whether or not "blood mages" have tainted the Circle as a whole is up for debate in that moment. The Right of Annulment based on the "possibility" of corruption is an abuse of power. In Origins, Greagoir wasn't completely against trying to save the Circle and they were literally overrun with demons, abominations and blood mages. He believed it was a dangerous and hopeless endeavor, but would still trust in Irving's word in the end.

Just some thoughts on the subject.

Here is the thing, I agree with the above but I still side with Meredith.

The reason is that regardless of how wrong she might be, Meredith will pursue the Right of Annulment and there is no reason to believe the Templars will disobey her if the Champion disagrees with her. Ergo, it doesn't matter what Hawke chooses, the Right of Annulment will happen and innocent citizens of Kirkwall will be caught in the crossfire.

 

Therefore, from my point of view, the choice becomes:

 

1-Side with the Mages and prolong the fight so that they can escape, therefore causing greater harm to the city or

 

2-Side with the Templars and lend Hawke's considerable prowess to the elimination of the mages thus minimizing the amount of fighting and, naturally, the number of people caught in the middle.

 

Thus, I must choose the option that places the citizens of Kirkwall first which is to side with the Templars. After all, is Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall or the Champion of Kirkwall's Circle?

[Catilina]

[...]

Who is Hawke? Just a(n apostate) refugee...