538 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

First, you're backtracking since in the last post you claimed he wasn't studying necromancy after his wife died.

No, you misunderstood. He wasn't studying necromancy, he was first depressed for a while, then obsessed with the project of recreating his wife.

 

 

Second, now your defence is that Orsino was "just" smuggling dangerous books to the necromancer he thought he was sane (oxymoron). Never mind, of course, that Orsino himself admits that he recognised that Quentin was insane at some point and still neglected to tell the Templars because he didn't want Meredith to crack down harder.

Which indicates that he was willing to allow Quentin to claim more victims in order to protect the mages showing once again how he prioritises his people and resents the citizens of Kirkwall as he is willing to let them die.

Smuggling them before he went crazy. And yes, Orsino was trying to protect the Circle, which is basically his job. It had nothing to do with resentment.

 

 

It's called "friendly fire", it happens a lot.

It certainly makes more sense than "a random group of mages noticed that the Circle was being annulled and somehow broke in because they didn't want to be left out of the fun."

Actually, upon reflection, the mages and templars alike in that room might have been enslaved by a desire demon.

 

 

Did you honestly just type that out with a straight face? You couldn't have.

Yeah, because when people feel they are being wronged by another group of people, God knows there are never generalisations and guilt by association. Oh no, hatred is always and solely focused on the people who "deserve it". Just ask the mages who were born in the South and were never Magisters...oh wait.

 

Besides, the people who are sleeping easily in their beds because mages are in a Circle, are non-magical people in general.

This doesn't change the fact that you're forcing his statement into an awkward position (when would he have been haranguing non-templar mundanes anyway?) so that you can give it the worst possible spin.

[ModernAcademic]

Nothing justifies the slaughter of the few innocent mages left in the Circle. As Cullen put it, the situation in the Ferelden Circle was worse and still, the Knight-Commander didn't go through with the Right of Annulment. However...

 

The very fact Orsino knew how to perform a full blood ritual which was far more elaborate than what Hawke witnessed blood mages perform over his seven years living in Kirkwall is a testament of how we were wrong about Orsino all this time.

 

He was neither innocent, nor a responsible First Enchanter, like Irving was.  As Meredith put it, one does not conjure such ritual out of thin air. Orsino had to have studied about that specific ritual, obviously a branch of blood magic, which is strictly forbidden by the Chantry.

 

The truth is, he was afraid the Knight-Commander would find out about his crimes and execute him. Crimes such as how he helped Quentin's research and Maker knows what else he must've done. Maybe aided blood mages escape the Circle, I don't know.

 

And this revelation changes everything. Such as the real intention behind his speech at the public plaza. He wasn't looking after the interests of the Circle. He was terrified Meredith would eventually find him guilty and execute him. It was a selfish act moved by self-preservation, not a plight to move the population regarding the mages' suffering.

 

 

 

(Note: I always liked Orsino until the revelation he helped Quentin with all those books about advanced blood magic. How he knew they'd help Quentin? Simple. Because HE HAD READ THEM. He knew their content pretty well.

 

That's when I realized he had a bigger responsibility over Kirkwall being attacked by blood mages than my Hawke could see at first. He was probably even aware of the Fraternity of Blood Mages in the Circle and did NOTHING to stop them

 

(Remember the mages we fight before meeting Leliana? That's them, the ones responsible for the underground revolution brewing in the city. Also, remember how Anders mentions the Mage Underground all the time? We can infer from that he's in constant contact with those blood mages, following their instructions without Hawke knowing.).

 

Orsino's right decision should've been to inform Meredith of an insane blood mage loose in the city. Instead, I speculate he actively helped that Fraternity, as well as other blood mages, in the hope they'd eventually stop Meredith. The result of his omission was Hawke's mother being abducted and killed, as well as countless other women.

 

If all that's true, then Orsino's responsible for Meredith tightening security in Kirkwall, for the conversion of so many innocent Circle mages to blood magic and for their death after Meredith purged the Circle. Of course, none of that redeems Meredith's character, nor means she's innocent and righteous. She did overlook countless cases of abuse commited by templars. However, she wasn't wrong in her suspicions. And she rejected the radical solution people like Ser Alrik came up with. In the end, her investigation was not only justified, but crucial to avoid Kirkwall succumbing to a secret Fraternity of blood mages.)

[fhs33721]

(Remember the mages we fight before meeting Leliana? That's them, the ones responsible for the underground revolution brewing in the city. Also, remember how Anders mentions the Mage Underground all the time? We can infer from that he's in constant contact with those blood mages, following their instructions without Hawke knowing.).

What? No. The mages we fight in order to meet Leliana are the Resolutionists. They have no ties to either Anders or the Mage Underground. In fact Anders absolutely loathes blood mages (He gives Merrill sh*t constantly and makes multiple comments about how he thinks bloodmagic is bad). It's highly unlikely that he works together with any bloodmages other than Merrill (if you have them both in your party) and Hawke (if you are one yourself). And the mage unerground he talks about all the time has basically been destroyed by Meredith at the beginning of Act 3, which is one of the reasons Anders starts loosing his last marbles.

[Lord of War]

The Resolutionists? When did they become blood mages, and, really, why should it matter? I admire them, their willingness to fight for their freedom and to fight the all-encompassing oppression of the Chantry. Having to help the Divine's secret police fight them honestly made me pretty mad.

[MisterJB]

You admire the terrorists?

[Catilina]

You admire the terrorists?

Revolutionary? Terrorist? Hero? Monster? Celebrated? Despised? It all depends on how you look at and who won, who lost. People around the world celebrated red-handed revolutionaries. And murderous revolutions.

 

French Revolution for example. There was bloody. Cruel. There are many innocent victims. And around the world celebrate.

 

(And no more: you like Anders, you like terrorist, your Hawke supported Anders/mages, you support the terrorism... please! This is still a game!)

[Illegitimus]

I don't know if anybody mentioned it, but if Hawke is intending to become Viscount he/she could side with Meredith for winning extra political power and finally achieve the goal or (with especially diabolic Hawkes) for having a chance to eliminate the rival (Meredith) during the chaos.

 

That said, siding with Meredith depends purely on what kind of Hawke it is. Some could be plain and simple magic haters and believe Meredith has it completely right. Some could be sick of all abominations and crazy mages running around (after all, one crazy mage killed Hawke's mother and the other crazy mage kidnapped Hawke's sibling/lover/friend even after Hawke helped her), some don't care at all, but will go with what their best friends suggest (Fenris and Aveline, for example, if that Hawke had good relationship with them).

 

ps edit, sorry, I meant Fenris.

 

I find a magic-hating Hawke to be a bit a of a stretch given their upbringing.  But I have considered having Hawke fold out of weakness and a lack of willingness to fight his only living family member.  

[Lord of War]

You admire the terrorists?

 

It really is funny that you call them terrorists, when the Chantry and Templars have engaged in terror tactics every day for centuries, indeed, Meredith is more of a terrorist than Anders or the Resolutionists ever could be. 

[MisterJB]

No, just stop right there.

You may think you are going to be really clever and try to find a way for the definition to support you but, you're not going to be able to anymore than you could claim that North Korea's problems are caused by terrorism rather than the police state.

The resolutionists kill people in order to prove that the Circle can't stop them from killing people, expecting it to be scrapped as a result.

They're terrorists, deal with it.

[Catilina]

No, just stop right there.

You may think you are going to be really clever and try to find a way for the definition to support you but, you're not going to be able to anymore than you could claim that North Korea's problems are caused by terrorism rather than the police state.

The resolutionists kill people in order to prove that the Circle can't stop them from killing people, expecting it to be scrapped as a result.

They're terrorists, deal with it.

The repression is certainly not a problem anywhere. Peaceful. And it only punish people who resist. (And who know the resistance fighters, and they parents, children, friends. And about whom the repression think, they possibly resist.). They are all wrong and certainly  guilty. To cooperate in the repression wonderful and productive. And will be quiet and peace. The resistance are chaos, if we behave well, and we report who is suspicious the repression will be grateful.

[R0vena]

I find a magic-hating Hawke to be a bit a of a stretch given their upbringing.  But I have considered having Hawke fold out of weakness and a lack of willingness to fight his only living family member.  

I don't think it is so much of a stretch.

Hawke could hate magic because it deprived him/her of normal life - they had constantly to be on lookout for templars, move a lot, hide a lot... etc. Bethany herself doesn't much like the fact she is a mage - Hawke could, too, even to the bigger degree since s/he is the oldest and responsible for the twins. That could apply both for mage and no mage Hawkes.

[Catilina]

I don't think it is so much of a stretch.

Hawke could hate magic because it deprived him/her of normal life - they had constantly to be on lookout for templars, move a lot, hide a lot... etc. Bethany herself doesn't much like the fact she is a mage - Hawke could, too, even to the bigger degree since s/he is the oldest and responsible for the twins. That could apply both for mage and no mage Hawkes.

To hate something, what you are? What are your parents, siblings? It does not make much sense. Okay, yes, you can hate, what you are, but fight against those who are the same as you/your sibling? That does not go away ...  You can hate mages, who cant control theirs skills, because want more power. And you can support the templars, because you think, the mages can be dangerous, because of Templar Carver, but not because you hate the magic as mage or with a mage sister...

Modifié par Catilina, 15 juillet 2016 - 12:36 .

[R0vena]

To hate something, what you are? What are your parents, siblings? It does not make much sense. Okay, yes, you can hate, what you are, but fight against those who are the same as you/your sibling? That does not go away ... 

 

You can support the templars, because you think, the mages can be dangerous, but not because you hate the magic as mage or with a mage sister...

Why not? We see several examples of mages who hate magic. Magic can make life very difficult for a family. You really think nobody ever is going to feel bitter over it? 

Depending on the type of Hawke it could be either  "I am a mage! Just like my father! I am sooo happy!" or "I am a mage! Just like my father! That... sucks."

[Catilina]

Why not? We see several examples of mages who hate magic. Magic can make life very difficult for a family. You really think nobody ever is going to feel bitter over it? 

Depending on the type of Hawke it could be either  "I am a mage! Just like my father! I am sooo happy!" or "I am a mage! Just like my father! That... sucks."

You can be bitter. Of course!

But why? Because of magic?

No. Rather because with magic your life are hard.

Why?

Because they hate you, and persecute you for it. If they not persecute you (or/and your family) anymore, you could don't hate the magic anymore.

 

Ergo: the reason is not the magic, but the persecution and continual hiding.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Why not? We see several examples of mages who hate magic. Magic can make life very difficult for a family. You really think nobody ever is going to feel bitter over it? 

Depending on the type of Hawke it could be either  "I am a mage! Just like my father! I am sooo happy!" or "I am a mage! Just like my father! That... sucks."

Yet Bethany's codex for a mage Hawke outright says that a mage Hawke embraced being a mage. 

[Illegitimus]

Why not? We see several examples of mages who hate magic. Magic can make life very difficult for a family. You really think nobody ever is going to feel bitter over it? 

Depending on the type of Hawke it could be either  "I am a mage! Just like my father! I am sooo happy!" or "I am a mage! Just like my father! That... sucks."

 

Going from that to "So I'm going to kill all the mages I can" is insane.  Besides if you thought that way, you'd kill Anders years earlier and the game won't let you do that, much as I'd like to.  

[R0vena]

You can be bitter. Of course!

But why? Because of magic?

No.

Because with magic your life are hard.

Why?

Because they hate you, and persecute you for it. If they not persecute you (or/and your family) anymore, you could don't hate the magic anymore.

 

Ergo: the reason is not the magic, but the persecution and continual hiding.

I don't say it is the only way to react. I said it is one of the many possible ways to react. Heck, one of the first quests we run into in Inqusition is fight to the death between templar and mage who are brothers. Mage in Mage Origin in DAO (forgot her name) loaths magic and thinks she is cursed with it. Connor says "we are monsters" flat out. Convince them of your point, not me. I personally agree with you, but I am not Hawke.

 

If you say that because my parent, sibling or I myself are X I am biologically incapable of hating X, I don't agree, people quite often hate what they are. And everybody has their reasons for it. Character, temperament, personal experience, etc.

[R0vena]

Yet Bethany's codex for a mage Hawke outright says that a mage Hawke embraced being a mage. 

Did it?

I don't remember, to be honest. Was it stated as a fact or was it just Bethany's point of view?

[R0vena]

Going from that to "So I'm going to kill all the mages I can" is insane.  Besides if you thought that way, you'd kill Anders years earlier and the game won't let you do that, much as I'd like to.

Honestly, I don't think any Hawkes think that. Well, maybe some especially psychotic ones. In this thread, where people specifically lists their reasons to support Meredith, I don't think i ever saw reasons "cause I just want to kill mages'.

[Catilina]

I don't say it is the only way to react. I said it is one of the many possible ways to react. Heck, one of the first quests we run into in Inqusition is fight to the death between templar and mage who are brothers. Mage in Mage Origin in DAO (forgot her name) loaths magic and thinks she is cursed with it. Connor says "we are monsters" flat out. Convince them of your point, not me. I personally agree with you, but I am not Hawke.

 

If you say that because my parent, sibling or I myself are X I am biologically incapable of hating X, I don't agree, people quite often hate what they are. And everybody has their reasons for it. Character, temperament, personal experience, etc.

I told, you can be bitter, you can hate yourself, however turn against those similar that you are not a logical decision. (Although it can be happens) 

(Connor's case is special. He has not received any education because Isolde was afraid to him let go to the Circle.)

Modifié par Catilina, 15 juillet 2016 - 01:23 .

[R0vena]

I told, you can be bitter, you can hate yourself, however turn against those similar that you are not a logical decision.

 

(Connor's case is special. He has not received any education because Isolde was afraid to him let go to the Circle.)

 

I think you tell your own point of view here.

But all people are different. And honestly, in situations like that it is usually a very emotional decision. Logic has very little to do with it. 

[ModernAcademic]

What? No. The mages we fight in order to meet Leliana are the Resolutionists. They have no ties to either Anders or the Mage Underground. In fact Anders absolutely loathes blood mages (He gives Merrill sh*t constantly and makes multiple comments about how he thinks bloodmagic is bad). It's highly unlikely that he works together with any bloodmages other than Merrill (if you have them both in your party) and Hawke (if you are one yourself). And the mage unerground he talks about all the time has basically been destroyed by Meredith at the beginning of Act 3, which is one of the reasons Anders starts loosing his last marbles.

 

Have you played the Faith quest? When you fight the Resolutionists, they are revealed to be blood mages.

 

If you haven't, then here's the description from the DA wiki of what Hawke has to do once they encounter the Resolutionists: http://dragonage.wik...i/Faith_(quest)

 

Quote from the article, just to be clear:

 

Defeat the Blood Mages and the demons.

 

 

Leliana also states the Resolutionists are behind the unrest in Kirkwall. And we know the terrorist attack commited by Anders was a big statement made by a group of dissatisfied mages, to whom Anders refers as the Mage Underground.

 

Since the Resolutionists are considered the most active Fraternity behind the constant attacks - and most of them were made by blood mages Hawke has to fight over the course of seven years -, then it's safe to assume the Mage Underground is heavily influenced by a Fraternity that has blood mages in its ranks, namely the Resolutionists. 

 

So yes, Anders was following the instructions of blood mages without knowing. His act could've been the idea of a blood mage for all we know. It you look at it, Elthina's demise mirrors another act of sacrifice: the death of Divine Justinia later on in Inquisition.

 

Justinia was the only force capable of maintaining the peace between two warring factions: mages and templars. Once removed, war broke out. But wasn't that Elthina's job as well? Keep the peace between those two in Kirkwall? 

 

So Elthina wasn't murdered. She was SACRIFICED. It was a blood ritual, for all we know. Ironically, performed by a mage immune to blood magic. 

 

In case there's still doubt about the Resolutionists being blood mages, here's the full dialog with Leliana in Faith: https://www.youtube....h?v=-ioeUchzV3Y

[Catilina]

[...]

Elthina was sacrified, yes, for the rebellion. But was not blood ritual.

What you have written, proves that blood mages also included in the action. Yes, its true. This fact does not change, that the Circle is unacceptable, and Meredith is a dangerous lunatic.

 

(Elthina was not neutral. She should have Meredith removed her post, she would have been neutral. She let Meredith would do what she wants. It was not right.)

[thesuperdarkone2]

Did it?

I don't remember, to be honest. Was it stated as a fact or was it just Bethany's point of view?

Yes, it says that Hawke embraced magic:

http://dragonage.wik...:_Bethany_Hawke

 

 Bethany was close to her eldest sibling and idolized and envied the way Hawke embraced magic, but she could never give up her resentment of being different and fear for what their future would hold.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Have you played the Faith quest? When you fight the Resolutionists, they are revealed to be blood mages.

 

If you haven't, then here's the description from the DA wiki of what Hawke has to do once they encounter the Resolutionists: http://dragonage.wik...i/Faith_(quest)

 

Quote from the article, just to be clear:

 

 

Leliana also states the Resolutionists are behind the unrest in Kirkwall. And we know the terrorist attack commited by Anders was a big statement made by a group of dissatisfied mages, to whom Anders refers as the Mage Underground.

 

Since the Resolutionists are considered the most active Fraternity behind the constant attacks - and most of them were made by blood mages Hawke has to fight over the course of seven years -, then it's safe to assume the Mage Underground is heavily influenced by a Fraternity that has blood mages in its ranks, namely the Resolutionists. 

 

So yes, Anders was following the instructions of blood mages without knowing. His act could've been the idea of a blood mage for all we know. It you look at it, Elthina's demise mirrors another act of sacrifice: the death of Divine Justinia later on in Inquisition.

 

Justinia was the only force capable of maintaining the peace between two warring factions: mages and templars. Once removed, war broke out. But wasn't that Elthina's job as well? Keep the peace between those two in Kirkwall? 

 

So Elthina wasn't murdered. She was SACRIFICED. It was a blood ritual, for all we know. Ironically, performed by a mage immune to blood magic. 

 

In case there's still doubt about the Resolutionists being blood mages, here's the full dialog with Leliana in Faith: https://www.youtube....h?v=-ioeUchzV3Y

Did we forget the part where Meredith destroyed the mage underground by Act 3?

 

Also, assuming you're right, that means Meredith is punishing the Kirkwall mages for the actions of foreign mages which makes her even worse.