Carver doesn't become a Templar because he hates magic. Just the opposite. He becomes a Templar because he learned of his namesake who let their apostate father go.
Plus he's butthurt that Hawke didn't take him on the expedition, so he joins the templars out of spite.
3. How does annulling the Circle weaken Meredith?
This one has an answer, from Gaider-though Meredith legally has the authority to call for Annullment when the Grand Cleric is dead (as opposed to it being illegal for not being authorized by the Grand Cleric), her actions would have come under extreme scrutiny afterwards and she likely would have lost her job and worse.
Obviously a Hawke who is on the right side of the law, and not a fugitive, has a bit better chance of taking advantage of that and easing Meredith out of power and providing a political alternative than a Hawke on the lamb.
This one has an answer, from Gaider-though Meredith legally has the authority to call for Annullment when the Grand Cleric is dead (as opposed to it being illegal for not being authorized by the Grand Cleric), her actions would have come under extreme scrutiny afterwards and she likely would have lost her job and worse.
Obviously a Hawke who is on the right side of the law, and not a fugitive, has a bit better chance of taking advantage of that and easing Meredith out of power and providing a political alternative than a Hawke on the lamb.
Presumably if the basis for calling for an Annulment is dubious, Hawke is not on such great ground either. While it appears that the decision to Annul a Circle is discretionary, presumably that discretion is fettered. It's not entirely clear Meredith would have had the authority to declare an Annulment anyway, despite being authorized in principle to order it following the death of the Grand Cleric.
So participating in a massacre that could later be declared illegal would not necessarily assist Hawke either.
This one has an answer, from Gaider-though Meredith legally has the authority to call for Annullment when the Grand Cleric is dead (as opposed to it being illegal for not being authorized by the Grand Cleric), her actions would have come under extreme scrutiny afterwards and she likely would have lost her job and worse.
Obviously a Hawke who is on the right side of the law, and not a fugitive, has a bit better chance of taking advantage of that and easing Meredith out of power and providing a political alternative than a Hawke on the lamb.
Hawke did not expect gratitude from Meredith, nor gratitude/support from the Chantry. If Hawke is a mage, because this fact, if Hawke is non-mage, then Bethany may will die. Annulment, remember? And Meredith is lunatic.
Presumably if the basis for calling for an Annulment is dubious, Hawke is not on such great ground either. While it appears that the decision to Annul a Circle is discretionary, presumably that discretion is fettered. It's not entirely clear Meredith would have had the authority to declare an Annulment anyway, despite being authorized in principle to order it following the death of the Grand Cleric.
So participating in a massacre that could later be declared illegal would not necessarily assist Hawke either.
Except it does. We know this from canon, because Hawke's who side with the Annullment get to become Viscounts. Hawke's who oppose it don't. The Annullment doesn't become more legal just because Meredith dies in the course of it.
It's not even a matter of 'helping' Hawke, as if it provides a boon to them directly- Hawke just needs to be the last (wo)man standing once Meredith is weakened. In a zero-sum arrangement, Meredith's loss (Chantry response) is Hawke's gain so long as Meredith loses more.
Hawke's power base doesn't derive from the Chantry in the first place though, nor does Hawke require the Chantry's sanction or even forgiveness. Hawke is Champion of Kirkwall, and has been a 'stay out of jail free' member of the nobility even longer. The Chantry doesn't really have a leg to stand on if it tries to go after Hawke as well as Meredith, nor is there much reason it would want to- no more than it did when it didn't even stop Hawke from becoming Viscount, and not when Hawke is going to be politically key for removing Meredith from power.
Hawke did not expect gratitude from Meredith, nor gratitude/support from the Chantry. If Hawke is a mage, because this fact, if Hawke is non-mage, then Bethany may will die. Annulment, remember? And Meredith is lunatic.
...and this has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, since what I said in no way required or even suggested a need for gratitude or support.
Meredith is going to be in hot water after the Annullment one way or the other. That's how the Annulment weakens Meredith. That's the answer to SD1's point.
[...]
...and this has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, since what I said in no way required or even suggested a need for gratitude or support.
Meredith is going to be in hot water after the Annullment one way or the other. That's how the Annulment weakens Meredith. That's the answer to SD1's point.
A wonderful idea, really, just a few (not human!) mage's life, and Meredith kicked out of position! Brillant.
But not, because Meredith's position not weakened after the Annulment. Nobody cares destruction of some possible blood mage. The Chantry would risk to lose prestige if they say, that Meredith is not suitable. It would mean the Chantry admit: at any time, any lunatic Templar commander able to destroy a whole Circle, if s/he feel like it.
Modificata da Catilina, 16 luglio 2016 - 12:14 .
A wonderful idea, really, just a few (not human!) mage's life, and Meredith kicked out of position! Brillant.
I don't know what you think you're arguing against, but it certainly isn't me.
Meredith's position is going to be weakened regardless of what Hawke does. It's not Hawke's idea, or Hawke's influence, or anything else Hawke affects- it's simply the reality of Meredith calling for the annullment in the context she does. Mage lives are going to be lost regardless of what Hawke does. Hawke does not have the power to stop, or reverse, or prevent the annullment. Hawke's ability to even mitigate the annullment, even if they stand in open resistance to it, is also in doubt- and, in canon, largely fails for all but a bare few escapees.
Hawke is not an instigator or cause of the annullment- Meredith is something Hawke reacts to, not causes. Hawke's choices reflecting that are entirely unrelated to the point I was making-
Meredith. Is weakened. By annulling the Circle.
That's it.
Except it does. We know this from canon, because Hawke's who side with the Annullment get to become Viscounts. Hawke's who oppose it don't. The Annullment doesn't become more legal just because Meredith dies in the course of it.
It's not even a matter of 'helping' Hawke, as if it provides a boon to them directly- Hawke just needs to be the last (wo)man standing once Meredith is weakened. In a zero-sum arrangement, Meredith's loss (Chantry response) is Hawke's gain so long as Meredith loses more.
Hawke's power base doesn't derive from the Chantry in the first place though, nor does Hawke require the Chantry's sanction or even forgiveness. Hawke is Champion of Kirkwall, and has been a 'stay out of jail free' member of the nobility even longer. The Chantry doesn't really have a leg to stand on if it tries to go after Hawke as well as Meredith, nor is there much reason it would want to- no more than it did when it didn't even stop Hawke from becoming Viscount, and not when Hawke is going to be politically key for removing Meredith from power.
You're missing the point. Your argument is that from Hawke's perspective, there's an advantage to siding with Meredith in that her actions are lawful. My point is that there's no real way for Hawke to reach this conclusion, particularly not based solely on the fact that Meredith is seemingly authorized to declare an Annulment in the right circumstances.
You say that a Hawke who's on the right side of the law has a better chance of taking advantage - I agree, but my point is that it's not clear what the "right side" is during the crisis moment, and I think it's equally arguable that the Annulment is an illegal action (having just been refused by the person authorized to consider it, i.e., Elthina). Hawke could easily think that Elthina is more representative of the Chantry orthodoxy on this point.
You're missing the point. Your argument is that from Hawke's perspective,
It's not.
I'm shamelessly speaking from the meta/outside perspective here. You can argue whether Hawke should come to the conclusion or not, but I'm not making an argument based on Hawke's perspective any which way.
You say that a Hawke who's on the right side of the law has a better chance of taking advantage - I agree, but my point is that it's not clear what the "right side" is during the crisis moment, and I think it's equally arguable that the Annulment is an illegal action (having just been refused by the person authorized to consider it, i.e., Elthina). Hawke could easily think that Elthina is more representative of the Chantry orthodoxy on this point.
Sure. And it'd be a valid role playing perspective. What does that have to do with Meredith being weakened by carrying out the annullment?
Meredith ran a military dictatorship of Kirkwall for three years and had literal death squads willing to murder people in broad daylight, is willing to leave the literal hanging corpses of her enemies as warning, already tried to have the Gallows annulled before, and who knows what else yet nobody did anything to remove her. I doubt she would have been removed if not for Hawke. Even if you sided with the templars, Cullen was totally willing to betray and arrest you. That kind of implies that there was still support amongst the templars until she decided to kill Hawke.
This one has an answer, from Gaider-though Meredith legally has the authority to call for Annullment when the Grand Cleric is dead (as opposed to it being illegal for not being authorized by the Grand Cleric), her actions would have come under extreme scrutiny afterwards and she likely would have lost her job and worse.
You mean under real extreme scruitiny or the same kind of extreme scruitity where the Seekers checked out the horrid conditions in the Kirkwall circle and then decided "Nah, this is fine." ?
Plus he's butthurt that Hawke didn't take him on the expedition, so he joins the templars out of spite.
My Carver is a GW, so yeah...
Meredith ran a military dictatorship of Kirkwall for three years and had literal death squads willing to murder people in broad daylight, is willing to leave the literal hanging corpses of her enemies as warning, already tried to have the Gallows annulled before, and who knows what else yet nobody did anything to remove her. I doubt she would have been removed if not for Hawke. Even if you sided with the templars, Cullen was totally willing to betray and arrest you. That kind of implies that there was still support amongst the templars until she decided to kill Hawke.
Hawke had murdered tons of people over the course of seven years in Kirkwall. Some of them might've been templars, as in the case of Ser Karras. Don't forget they also start as either a mercenary or a smuggler in their first year.
They would be close to number 1 in Meredith's black list.
The only reason why Hawke would be pardoned for some crimes would be for Aveline's testimony regarding most of their missions, where they chase down blood mages and criminals. But in no way is Hawke innocent or a righteous warrior. They cross the red line several times.
It's not.
I'm shamelessly speaking from the meta/outside perspective here. You can argue whether Hawke should come to the conclusion or not, but I'm not making an argument based on Hawke's perspective any which way.
Sure. And it'd be a valid role playing perspective. What does that have to do with Meredith being weakened by carrying out the annullment?
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