538 replies to this topic

[Mr.House]

Barquiel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Even if every single mage (including apprentices ranging from young children to teenagers) in the gallows was a blood mage, I cannot possibly see ANY justification for the Right of Annulment in Kirkwall. The circle mages didn't commit the crime, it's as simple as that. But Meredith didn't care. She even leaves Anders fate up to Hawke. To quote Sebastian..."Why are we discussing the right of Annulment when the bastard who did this is right here?"

Apart from that, Meredith also makes it clear that she wants to invoke the Right of Annulment because she's giving in to the mob. This alone makes it impossible to side with Meredith for me. Because if she is going to give into mob rule in such an extreme way, she has failed as a leader and templar

Hope you enjoyed siding with the man who helped the very guy who killed your mother and alot of other innocent women.

Yes, I enjoyed defending the mages from an unjust execution, thank you.

I hope you enjoyed to help Meredith executing hundreds of innocent men, women and children to appease a hypothetical mob...because of the actions of a single apostate mage.

I remember killing demons, blood mages and a liar. I don't remember killing innocents. Any mages who did not want to be fight where spared, with me and Cullen making sure.

Can I have your DA2?

Yes, in my DA2 Varric mentions how many mages survived in the mage ending. He doesn't mention any survivors in the templar ending. That means no mage survived and any prisoners would have either had to have been executed later or made tranquil.

Biggest fallacy I have seen so far.

[The Hierophant]

To answer the op. Outside of playing a pro Temp pc (only a few) i mostly side with Orsino for the drama as i tend to ignore meta knowledge. Hawke would have no way of knowing that Orsino, and the majority of the CoM were bloodmages, while Anders' was unaffiliated with the CoM.

[bleetman]

Barquiel wrote...

Yes, in my DA2 Varric mentions how many mages survived in the mage ending. He doesn't mention any survivors in the templar ending. That means no mage survived and any prisoners would have either had to have been executed later or made tranquil.

Ignoring the enourmous leap of logic this conclusion requires and that you can literally decide whether to execute or spare several mages who surrender during the Templar segment, on whose order do you suppose this is going to take place? Because Meredith's second in command by that point seems to be Cullen, and unless I've misunderstood his entire character development during DA2 he's not going to order either of those things.

Edited by bleetman, 03 November 2013 - 09:29 PM.

[CroGamer002]

I don't think anyone is pro-Meredith and people side with her only because of the Templars and mage problem.

Heck, haven't seen any pro-Templar that said anything positive about her.

[clst]

this is the most difficult choice of dragon age 2 :

1er kill or not anders because it's go terrorist
2e side with the mage ( who have blood magic user and First Enchanter Orsino who know that ( if you got the later sign by O ) and protect them
side with the templar who hunts apostates and maleficar and watches over the mages from the Circle of Magi ( but with some bad people like Ser Alrik's who misuse the Rite of Tranquility and Knight-Commander Meredith Stannard who go more and more insane because of the red lyium )

for m y playtrought :
>finish all the quest of the game ,
>all compagnion max love ( between 90 and 100 )
>kill ander ( for that im not sure )
> and side with mage ( for that i m not sure too )

for the last 2 choice i have my save if i want to change
>

[MisterJB]

Let’s go step by step: Anders murders Elthina in an extremely noticeable and magical fashion. This was done on purpose. He wished to force a confrontation between mages and non-mages by making the people of Kirkwall see their beloved Grand Cleric murdered by a mage.
Meredith made a mistake in biting the bait but this is not something that Hawke can influence. She has called for the Right of Annulment and there is no way Hawke can dissuade her from this path. All Hawke can do is choose between helping or opposing her.

If you choose to help her, Hawke must kill the entire population of the Circle; barring the few that surrender; who, one can safely say, were innocent of this particular crime. Obviously, that sounds horrific and unjust.

However, on the other hand, what will occur if Hawke helps the Circle? Either of these things:

1-Hawke will lose which is actually what happens in the game. Hawke fails to defeat the templars and all s/he accomplished was enabling some mages to escape. One might say that it was worth it but was it really?

By fighting the Templars, Hawke helped extend the conflict which means more Templars and mages fighting in the streets of Kirkwall, releasing fireballs, demons and abominations. How many innocent people who had nothing to do with this situation died in the crossfire? How many could have been saved had Hawke; with all of his/her skill; assisted the Templars in killing the mages before they could summon truly destructive powers?

Is it really worth it setting the city ablaze to save the Circle? I do not believe so. Is Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall or the Champion of Kirkwall’s Circle?


2-Hawke might win. In order to do so, Hawke must defeat the templars which means either killing them all or reducing them to a number where they will no longer present a threat.
Ok, you might say, they were the attackers. They deserved it. Maybe so, but once the mages have won the battle, what will happen?

Will the mages remain in the Gallows and quietly wait for the Divine to send reinforcements? That is extremely unlikely given the harsh conditions of Kirkwall’s Circle and the fact these mages just killed an army of templars.
They have no reason to believe they will be given flowers and cake once reinforcements arrive. And even if they did, it is only a matter of time until the people of Kirkwall commandeer boats and demand a justification as to why
both the Grand Cleric and the Knight Commander have been slain by magic in which case we can expect more bloodshed.

Will the mages run from the city? Possibly, a few might but I doubt the majority will do so. We must remember that these mages likely have families in the city that they probably miss and that even those who don't will feel empowered by this victory which might rule over their common sense.

However, we can’t really expect Kirkwall to be very welcoming to the mages after, as I said before, the Grand Cleric and Knight Commander have been slain by it in one night. Rather, the common people will likely see it as a plot by the mages to establish a new Tevinter and they will react with violence. Violence that the City Guard will find itself unable to curb given the fact they are not used to fighting mages.

More fighting ensues, more lives are lost, the rotten Veil will lead to more demons passing through and either the non-mages will kill every mage they can find or the mages will reach the conclusion the only way for them to be safe in the city is to rule it. Meanwhile, the Divine calls for an Exalted March and raises Kirkwall to the ground.



So, what is the right thing to do in DA2’s endgame? Stick to your ideals and protect the wrongfully accused or simply accept that sometimes a rotten limb must be amputated? That it’s preferable to Annul Kirkwall’s Circle to watching Kirkwall itself burn?

Personally, I believe it is the latter. A tragic, bloody affair but the innocents living in the city must be protected. Even if a less number of innocents must perish in the process.

[Shadow Fox]

You know I could easily say that protecting blood mages and adding to the chaos by putting the needs of the few over the many to satisfy your own sense of morality is evil too right?

Also if anyone who condemns the ROA for being murder/genocide spared Anders *and arguably Isabella* they are a hypocrite too you know.

[Barquiel]

bleetman wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Yes, in my DA2 Varric mentions how many mages survived in the mage ending. He doesn't mention any survivors in the templar ending. That means no mage survived and any prisoners would have either had to have been executed later or made tranquil.

Ignoring the enourmous leap of logic this conclusion requires and that you can literally decide whether to execute or spare several mages who surrender during the Templar segment, on whose order do you suppose this is going to take place? Because Meredith's second in command by that point seems to be Cullen, and unless I've misunderstood his entire character development during DA2 he's not going to order either of those things.

We are told by multiple people including Cullen that the Rite of Annulment requires the execution of all circle mages (DG said that in the case where a mages actually survived the RoA for some reason, they could theoretically be made tranquil instead of executed).   

Now we know that the Right of Annulment that was invoked at Kirkwall caused such an outcry from the Circles of Magi that they rose up and emancipated themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. Varric makes this clear...and it was never mentioned that Cullen or anyone else revoked the Right of Annulment.  

Mage ending - mage survivors are mentioned
Templar ending - at no time is it mentioned that there are mage survivors (but the circle is described as destroyed)

It all seems rather clear to me...

Edited by Barquiel, 03 November 2013 - 10:03 PM.

[Bardox9]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

The problem is that Meredith doesn't want Orsino's help and she also won't let the nobilty pick a new vicount and that is not her job.

By the end at the finale choice of templar of mage, both of them are completely unreasonable. Act 1 Meredith was willing (reluctant but willing) to have worked with Orsino, but he refused to aid her. In act 2 Orsino was actively blocked her attempts to root out the blood mages, but she had not given up hope on all of them. By Act 3 she is warped and twist and paranoid beyond all reason after seeing for years now blood mage after blood mage and demon after demon pour out from the circle. Orsino did not help her before and, in her state of mind at the end, it was clear to her he never would.

Orsino's incompetence is the cause of the chaos that has lead to the reawakening of the Inquisition. Had he simply done his job, all of the mage VS templar maddness could have been avoided. One weak minded mage has lead the world to the edge of ruin.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I will take chaos and destruction side in inquisition i hope for that option i don't like lawful characters and this time it is time to take evil side.

[MWImexico]

Since my first playtrough I knew Meredith was the one who had the idol. Trough time, she became more and more paranoid so, despite her good intentions, it's probable that whatever she might have discoverd into the cercle by the end of the game, she would have amplified it by 100.

Perhaps Orsino knew that and, by refusing the entrance to Meredith, he was actually trying to protect the circle and the mages inside of it?

I'm not saying Orsino is the good guy here, there isn't. But I think what he did shouldn't be used as an excuse for accepting de ROA.

[Ryzaki]

First: Wrong Forum

Second: Because you don't want bloodmages running amok.

Third: We have seen an anullment called off, in the case of Gregoir he sends for the annullment but if you clear out the tower he very clearly calls it off. Not to mention even if you don't clear Irving if you spare him and say he MIGHT be a bloodmage Gregoir doesn't go "LOL TIME TO DIE." he sends them to the mages prison (which might be a fate worse than death...) Cullen spares the mages that ask to be saved (now are they going to Aoenar or being tranqualized is another question).

So clearly Annullments are subject to some bendy rules. One would think they could be cancelled (which the Fereldan Circle one was in a sense) in which case the tranquil/must die rule no longer needs apply.

Edited by Ryzaki, 03 November 2013 - 10:01 PM.

[ShadowLordXII]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You know I could easily say that protecting blood mages and adding to the chaos by putting the needs of the few over the many to satisfy your own sense of morality is evil too right?

Also if anyone who condemns the ROA for being murder/genocide spared Anders *and arguably Isabella* they are a hypocrite too you know.

Isabela came back and returned what she stole. So by pragmatic and ethical accounts, she's attoned for her crime and giving her up to the qunari is just needless especially when they offer the chance for an honor duel between Hawke and the Arishok.

Killing Anders would have made him a martyr and added further vindication to his actions.

Declaring the ROA on the mage circle when the actual culprit is looking you in the face is unjustified. I'm not saying that the mage circle is any better because clearly they're not, but this is a situation where a neutral option would have been great. Essentially, we're being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils and it's very unclear as to who the lesser evil is.

[MWImexico]

Meredith demanded the RAO only after Anders destroyed the chantry. That's her main reason.

[Zjarcal]

Yeah I'm never doing this, not even for science. Saw the relevant parts on youtube anyway.

F*** the Templars and Meredith. F*** Orsino too. Hell, f*** Kirkwall...

The one positive thing of this ending is that the way things develop make a lot more sense at least than in the mage ending. Orsino going Harvestino if you sided with the Templars doesn't feel so WTF, while Meredith going batsh!t against you even if you helped her can be justified on the idol. Cullen apparently having agreed with her to arrest you though, that doesn't make one iota of sense in that scenario.

Mr.House wrote...

Mereidth while crazy never hides anything or lied...  

The Idol says hello.

Edited by Zjarcal, 03 November 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...
So, what is the right thing to do in DA2’s endgame? Stick to your ideals and protect the wrongfully accused or simply accept that sometimes a rotten limb must be amputated? That it’s preferable to Annul Kirkwall’s Circle to watching Kirkwall itself burn?Personally, I believe it is the latter. A tragic, bloody affair but the innocents living in the city must be protected. Even if a less number of innocents must perish in the process.

That is the dilemma and Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall and not the Champion of the Circle of Magi, so Kirkwall it is. And we have reason to believe there are a blood mages in just flaout unacceptable numbers operating within in the Kirkwall Circle, likely with intent to act soon against the templars. And an Exalted March is being contemplated on the city because of the blood mage and Resolutionist problem. I choose Kirkwall in the end.

[Ryzaki]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Killing Anders would have made him a martyr and added further vindication to his actions.

And sparing him you do what exactly? Other than allow him to get off scot free for destroying the chantry and allowing him to continue aggravating the situation. He flat out admits to being willing to kill anyone and pretty much do anything to see the mages free. 

It's not like you have him arrested. Arguably the only time sparing Anders is a punishment is in his rivalry templar ending.

Edited by Ryzaki, 03 November 2013 - 10:04 PM.

[Karlone123]

Either way of siding with meredith or not, the mages there will still use blood magic and turn into abominations and Hawke will still have to kill them. Maybe siding with meredith and the templars can be the best way of saving Templars and Mages from dying. Keep in mind that Hawke can rule against meredith's order to kill a group of Mages instead Hawke orders the Templars to place the Mages under arrest instead of killing them.

You can still be pro-templar and still go against Meredith's right of Annulment, I'm pretty sure the Ser Thrask would have done that if he were still alive.

Edited by Karlone123, 03 November 2013 - 10:08 PM.

[Hazegurl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I finally did it.

It took me two and a half years to bring myself to side with Meredith at the end of DA2. I've played many Hawkes and made many different decisions, including siding with the templars every single time before the end, and could rationalize almost all of them from the perspective of the Hawke I'd been playing. The one thing I never did, because it just felt evil to me, was to follow Meredith when she invoked the Annulment.

This time I did. I had never watched how this played out on YT, so I didn't know how things would go. Guess what? It was every bit as evil as I imagined it would be.

I mean, yes, I tend towards being pro-mage, but while I don't share the templar position, I understand it. Enough that I can roleplay a templar-friendly Hawke until the end of DA2 with no problem. But going along with this genocidal act, killing a whole Circle for the actions of a few, most of them happening outside a Circle, I feel tainted. I understand the desire to kill Orsino, even before he turns into the Harvester, but you only get that scene where he admits to having known Quentin after the decision about the Annulment has already been made. I find myself unable to let that playthrough exist and I'll reload it and change my decision again.

So here, my question: how can anyone who doesn't play an evil Hawke justify siding with Meredith at the end? I do wish to see the consequences of that in DAI, but I guess I'm glad we'll have the DA Keep and I don't have to play it.

I have all my Hawkes side with Meredieth including my mage Hawkes. Being evil has nothing to do with it as I have played jerk and sarcastic Hawkes and sometimes a combo of both.  I sided with Meredith because the RoA couldn't be stopped and there have been too many problems with the Circle anyway.  He figured that most mages would use it as an excuse to rebel and with Kirkwall already being investigated for a possible Exalted March he didn't want to give any one any more ammo than what Anders already did.  The choice was simple. Risk a march on Kirkwall and have thousands killed or perform the RoA and kill a hundred. It's a gamble but one he was willing to make.  Sadly, the death of the innocent Circle mages were more of a statement and a gamble than anything.

The least Hawke could do was limit the damage as much as possible.  Possibilby save some lives (which he got the chance to do) and protect the city as much as he could. Having an icon within the city running around in open rebellion was not what Kirkwall needed. So yeah, My Hawke sided with Meredith.

I'm sure an argument will or has already started from this...

Edited by Hazegurl, 03 November 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[Dabrikishaw]

Anyone can side with Meredith if they are Pro-Templar.

[Ryzaki]

Eh you don't have to be pro-templar to side with Meredith. One of my snarky mage Hawkes was pro himself.

Of course the option he really would've took was "Get the hell out of here" but alas BW made him take stupid pills. A side with Aveline and the Guard option and saving civilians would've also been nice and STILL would've fit with the whole Champion who saved us all thing. Maybe he/she gets in fights with templars and that's why Cassandra thinks he/she sided with the mages. *shrug* 

Alas we side with dumb or dumber.

Edited by Ryzaki, 03 November 2013 - 10:07 PM.

[Shadow Fox]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

You know I could easily say that protecting blood mages and adding to the chaos by putting the needs of the few over the many to satisfy your own sense of morality is evil too right?

Also if anyone who condemns the ROA for being murder/genocide spared Anders *and arguably Isabella* they are a hypocrite too you know.

Isabela came back and returned what she stole. So by pragmatic and ethical accounts, she's attoned for her crime and giving her up to the qunari is just needless especially when they offer the chance for an honor duel between Hawke and the Arishok.

Killing Anders would have made him a martyr and added further vindication to his actions.

Declaring the ROA on the mage circle when the actual culprit is looking you in the face is unjustified. I'm not saying that the mage circle is any better because clearly they're not, but this is a situation where a neutral option would have been great. Essentially, we're being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils and it's very unclear as to who the lesser evil is. 

After she left a city to burn  and her friends to die out of selfishness,tell that to everyone who died or lost loved ones because of her actions and she's never punished for it,it isn't if you want her to face justice.

And that justifes sparing a murderer and a man who is willing to sacrifice those he claims to fight for?

Agreed.

[Hazegurl]

Bardox9 wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

The problem is that Meredith doesn't want Orsino's help and she also won't let the nobilty pick a new vicount and that is not her job.

By the end at the finale choice of templar of mage, both of them are completely unreasonable. Act 1 Meredith was willing (reluctant but willing) to have worked with Orsino, but he refused to aid her. In act 2 Orsino was actively blocked her attempts to root out the blood mages, but she had not given up hope on all of them. By Act 3 she is warped and twist and paranoid beyond all reason after seeing for years now blood mage after blood mage and demon after demon pour out from the circle. Orsino did not help her before and, in her state of mind at the end, it was clear to her he never would.

Orsino's incompetence is the cause of the chaos that has lead to the reawakening of the Inquisition. Had he simply done his job, all of the mage VS templar maddness could have been avoided. One weak minded mage has lead the world to the edge of ruin.

I agree, However If she was just as ruthless in rooting out corrupt Templars as she was about mages then things also wouldn't have gone so far. Both are responsible for the corruption within the Circle but Orsino chose to burn his Olive branches when extended and we find out after the RoA for his reasons why. He too was a blood mage. He really had some nerve to pretend as though Meredith was just a basketcase throwing around false accusations.   

[Bardox9]

Dabrikishaw wrote...

Anyone can side with Meredith if they are Pro-Templar.

I am pro-Mage, but I still support the templars at the end. Until that point I help the mages. By the end it truely is too late. The ROA is overkill in Kirkwall's case. It's not THAT bad. The insanity brought on by the idol pushed things to that point. Once the line was crossed, there was no going back. Anders saw to that. You have to pick a side. Orsino and his blood mages that want to rule the world...OR... Meredith and her bigoted templars that will kill every mage that takes up arms against them to keep the evil contained to the tower?

The kirkwall circle is not how it is suppose to be. The Ferelden circle is how the mage/templar relationship is suppose to work. Mages training their apprentices to resist demonic influence and turning over those that succumb to the templars and not hiding them and hoping the demon goes away. Templars standing vigilant over their charges protecting the innocent from corruption instead of treating them like prisoners and slaves.

Templar and mage must work together to protect thedas from evil. Should they fail, for the greater good, a great evil must be done... ROA...

As I said earlier, the ROA is not warranted in this case which Cullen knows all too well. I do not side with the Templars to put Hawk in the Vicounts office or even out of revenge on Orsino for aiding the man that killed Hawks mother and who knows how many others. It is because corrupt mages are a danger to everyone and everything around them. Might seem like splitting hairs, but that is why the Templars were formed. "Are you a good witch or a bad witch?"

[Bardox9]

Hazegurl wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

The problem is that Meredith doesn't want Orsino's help and she also won't let the nobilty pick a new vicount and that is not her job.

By the end at the finale choice of templar of mage, both of them are completely unreasonable. Act 1 Meredith was willing (reluctant but willing) to have worked with Orsino, but he refused to aid her. In act 2 Orsino was actively blocked her attempts to root out the blood mages, but she had not given up hope on all of them. By Act 3 she is warped and twist and paranoid beyond all reason after seeing for years now blood mage after blood mage and demon after demon pour out from the circle. Orsino did not help her before and, in her state of mind at the end, it was clear to her he never would.

Orsino's incompetence is the cause of the chaos that has lead to the reawakening of the Inquisition. Had he simply done his job, all of the mage VS templar maddness could have been avoided. One weak minded mage has lead the world to the edge of ruin.

I agree, However If she was just as ruthless in rooting out corrupt Templars as she was about mages then things also wouldn't have gone so far. Both are responsible for the corruption within the Circle but Orsino chose to burn his Olive branches when extended and we find out after the RoA for his reasons why. He too was a blood mage. He really had some nerve to pretend as though Meredith was just a basketcase throwing around false accusations.   

True that some of the Templars under Mereidths command did not deserve to be in the order and should have been booted out, but there aren't exactly long lines outside to refill the ranks. You don't have to be a blood mage, or just a mage in general, to be corrupt. And any mage can learn blood magic, doesn't make them evil. Just as with warriors and rogues, just because you learn the sword doesn't mean you will go out and start murding people in the streets.