538 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

Xilizhra wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Mages, even if they win, they lose. They lost their first enchanter, and even a huge chunk of mages in the fighting. I only remember seeing one, maybe two mages outside of Circle!Bethany who survive. Hardly enough to justify a win. Maybe a "hollow victory" But the Mages still lose everything, and a good portion of the Templars still live so...

Varric specifically says that "many survived to tell the tale."

Varric is a known liar, so I do not believe the guy. The parts where he knowingly exxagerates the story makes it clear that the mages might not have survived, except in his words.

I still say the story did not actually happen the way Varric tells it, even the whole story.

Then we have literally nothing to say about the story that can't be countered with "he might have lied."

Including the mages ending. Therefore you lost by virtue of varric telling the story, andf logic beats "morality" the imaginary non-Dragon Age construct.

IF any mages survived, it was because the Templars CAPTURED them and took them somewhere else, so the Templars still decimated the mages.

Modifié par draken-heart, 10 novembre 2013 - 02:26 .

[Xilizhra]

I admit, your anti-logic is an impenetrable force field. I'm impressed. Of course, if everything might be a lie, there might not have been any Annulment at all, with Meredith being quietly assassinated by Leliana before it went that far. Or any number of other scenarios that didn't happen.

[draken-heart]

Xilizhra wrote...

I admit, your anti-logic is an impenetrable force field. I'm impressed. Of course, if everything might be a lie, there might not have been any Annulment at all, with Meredith being quietly assassinated by Leliana before it went that far. Or any number of other scenarios that didn't happen.

Logic dictates that I have no reason to side with the mages, nor the Templars. Logic dictates I do whatever is necessary to complete the game. Choosing a side based on whatever is anti-logic.

Modifié par draken-heart, 12 novembre 2013 - 05:20 .

[Bardox9]

The DA2 choice is not really a choice between mage or templar. It's a choice between Meredith and Orsino. Meredith is inacting the most oppressive restriction on mages she can get away with. Orsino is protecting corrupt mages, abominations, demons, and maker knows what else. Meredith may be insane, but she's a better bet than a demon.

[Xilizhra]

Bardox9 wrote...

The DA2 choice is not really a choice between mage or templar. It's a choice between Meredith and Orsino. Meredith is inacting the most oppressive restriction on mages she can get away with. Orsino is protecting corrupt mages, abominations, demons, and maker knows what else. Meredith may be insane, but she's a better bet than a demon.

It's genocide vs. stopping genocide, plain and simple.

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

Bardox9 wrote...

The DA2 choice is not really a choice between mage or templar. It's a choice between Meredith and Orsino. Meredith is inacting the most oppressive restriction on mages she can get away with. Orsino is protecting corrupt mages, abominations, demons, and maker knows what else. Meredith may be insane, but she's a better bet than a demon.

You don't really learn that Orsino was a blood mage and working with that serial killer until after the battle starts.  Overall, siding with the mages seems to be a lot more just.

[draken-heart]

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

Bardox9 wrote...

The DA2 choice is not really a choice between mage or templar. It's a choice between Meredith and Orsino. Meredith is inacting the most oppressive restriction on mages she can get away with. Orsino is protecting corrupt mages, abominations, demons, and maker knows what else. Meredith may be insane, but she's a better bet than a demon.

You don't really learn that Orsino was a blood mage and working with that serial killer until after the battle starts.  Overall, siding with the mages seems to be a lot more just.

As I have said before, there is no such thing as right or wrong. Saying otherwise is anti-logic, knowing that Orsino should have been working with Meredith from the start, but has been antagonizing her at every turn. And after finding out he knew, and helped, the man that killed your mother, makes me wonder why I would side with him in the mage ending.

Xilizhra wrote...
It's genocide vs. stopping genocide, plain and simple.

Maybe to you, but to me, it is just a different kind of "genocide." you either kill mages or kill Templars. There are no "innocents" in dragon age other than the folks that do nothing but sit on their lazy butts or do an honest days work. You fight, you are guilty of manslaughter.

Modifié par draken-heart, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:42 .

[Icy Magebane]

Ieldra2 wrote...

So here, my question: how can anyone who doesn't play an evil Hawke justify siding with Meredith at the end? I do wish to see the consequences of that in DAI, but I guess I'm glad we'll have the DA Keep and I don't have to play it.

I always do it, but I don't consider this version of Hawke to be evil.  It's just that the situation in Kirkwall is too chaotic for his liking, and fighting on behalf of the mages would allow any number of blood mages to escape the city unpunished.  Also, this character is always a Templar (headcanon, I know, but I like to rp rather than just pick a supposedly rare specialization from a list), believes in their core principles, and enforces the laws as they are written (no deals with criminals throughout the game).  This includes the Right of Annulment when the Knight-Commander feels the Circle is beyond redemption.  This isn't to say that he's just following orders.  He agrees with this assessment, and whether or not the practice is humane is beside the point.  The fact that a mage was responsible for his mother's death undoubtedly contributes to his negative views on unrestricted magic...  His father and Bethany would have been dead for years, so there's no emotional attachment to mages at this point...  (I never played any DLC, so I don't know if Malcolm is actually dead or not...)

That's the basic idea of what goes through the mind of my favorite version of Hawke... with a thread this long, most of this has probably been covered, but I figured I'd add my voice to those who support the decison.

I am also thankful for the Keep, because I lost all my saves and I don't want to play DA2 again...

[draken-heart]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

So here, my question: how can anyone who doesn't play an evil Hawke justify siding with Meredith at the end? I do wish to see the consequences of that in DAI, but I guess I'm glad we'll have the DA Keep and I don't have to play it.

I always do it, but I don't consider this version of Hawke to be evil.  It's just that the situation in Kirkwall is too chaotic for his liking, and fighting on behalf of the mages would allow any number of blood mages to escape the city unpunished.  Also, this character is always a Templar (headcanon, I know, but I like to rp rather than just pick a supposedly rare specialization from a list), believes in their core principles, and enforces the laws as they are written (no deals with criminals throughout the game).  This includes the Right of Annulment when the Knight-Commander feels the Circle is beyond redemption.  This isn't to say that he's just following orders.  He agrees with this assessment, and whether or not the practice is humane is beside the point.  The fact that a mage was responsible for his mother's death undoubtedly contributes to his negative views on unrestricted magic...  His father and Bethany would have been dead for years, so there's no emotional attachment to mages at this point...  (I never played any DLC, so I don't know if Malcolm is actually dead or not...)

That's the basic idea of what goes through the mind of my favorite version of Hawke... with a thread this long, most of this has probably been covered, but I figured I'd add my voice to those who support the decison.

I am also thankful for the Keep, because I lost all my saves and I don't want to play DA2 again...

minus all the templar stuff, this is how my rogue and warrior Hawkes feel. The city is too chaotic to care about what's right and wrong, and just want the city bloody quiet for once.

[Ieldra]

@Icy Magebane:
I could get behind that rationale if we dropped a giant bomb on the Circle, accepting that some innocents must die together with the blood mages. But it's different if you go in and kill everyone personally. There you have a choice for each individual, and "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" is not something any Hawke I would want to play can get behind.

I could also get behind that rationale if Meredith didn't call the RoA for an event unrelated to the Circle's mages. "One non-circle mage did this, so let's kill all mages in the Circle" is as insane a rationale as any.

I've played another Hawke who was pro-Templar for the whole game before the final decision, but I couldn't go along with Meredith.

[draken-heart]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Icy Magebane:
I could get behind that rationale if we dropped a giant bomb on the Circle, accepting that some innocents must die together with the blood mages. But it's different if you go in and kill everyone personally. There you have a choice for each individual, and "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" is not something any Hawke I would want to play can get behind.

I could also get behind that rationale if Meredith didn't call the RoA for an event unrelated to the Circle's mages. "One non-circle mage did this, so let's kill all mages in the Circle" is as insane a rationale as any.

I've played another Hawke who was pro-Templar for the whole game before the final decision, but I couldn't go along with Meredith.

How can you tell a blood mage from an "innocent" mage? They have to use Blood magic to prove it. If they do not, they could all be blood mages.

[Icy Magebane]

draken-heart wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Icy Magebane:
I could get behind that rationale if we dropped a giant bomb on the Circle, accepting that some innocents must die together with the blood mages. But it's different if you go in and kill everyone personally. There you have a choice for each individual, and "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" is not something any Hawke I would want to play can get behind.

I could also get behind that rationale if Meredith didn't call the RoA for an event unrelated to the Circle's mages. "One non-circle mage did this, so let's kill all mages in the Circle" is as insane a rationale as any.

I've played another Hawke who was pro-Templar for the whole game before the final decision, but I couldn't go along with Meredith.

How can you tell a blood mage from an "innocent" mage? They have to use Blood magic to prove it. If they do not, they could all be blood mages.

Pretty much this...  The situation is far from ideal, but this is how the DA universe works.  You know that there are a lot of blood mages in Kirkwall and the Circle itself.  You know that mages have been escaping from the Circle based on prior quests.  These two facts on their own support the idea that the Circle is probably compromised.  The First and Senior Enchanters were well aware of the Rite when they either dabbled or looked past the dabbling of others... blood magic is forbidden, no exceptions.  Keep in mind that there are two options to complete this game, one of which demands that you release random mages into the countryside.  Since there's no way of knowing who taught what to whom, I find this decision to be entirely too risky.

If you agree to help Meredith, you are guaranteed to kill at least some innocents.  On the other hand, opposing her presents a similar moral dilemma. You are guaranteed to release at least some blood mages and maleficar into the world, which will likely lead to the deaths of innocents. 

I try not to base this decison on whether you would be personally executing these people... while it might not be as fun as killing bandits, if you take this path, it's just something that has to be done.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 16 novembre 2013 - 09:26 .

[draken-heart]

Icy Magebane wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Icy Magebane:
I could get behind that rationale if we dropped a giant bomb on the Circle, accepting that some innocents must die together with the blood mages. But it's different if you go in and kill everyone personally. There you have a choice for each individual, and "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" is not something any Hawke I would want to play can get behind.

I could also get behind that rationale if Meredith didn't call the RoA for an event unrelated to the Circle's mages. "One non-circle mage did this, so let's kill all mages in the Circle" is as insane a rationale as any.

I've played another Hawke who was pro-Templar for the whole game before the final decision, but I couldn't go along with Meredith.

How can you tell a blood mage from an "innocent" mage? They have to use Blood magic to prove it. If they do not, they could all be blood mages.

Pretty much this...  The situation is far from ideal, but this is how the DA universe works.  You know that there are a lot of blood mages in Kirkwall and the Circle itself.  You know that mages have been escaping from the Circle based on prior quests.  These two facts on their own support the idea that the Circle is probably compromised.  The First and Senior Enchanters were well aware of the Rite when they either dabbled or looked past the dabbling of others... blood magic is forbidden, no exceptions.  Keep in mind that there are two options to complete this game, one of which demands that you release random mages into the countryside.  Since there's no way of knowing who taught what to whom, I find this decision to be entirely too risky.

If you agree to help Meredith, you are guaranteed to kill at least some innocents.  On the other hand, opposing her presents a similar moral dilemma. You are guaranteed to release at least some blood mages and maleficar into the world, which will likely lead to the deaths of innocents. 

I try not to base this decison on whether you would be personally executing these people... while it might not be as fun as killing bandits, if you take this path, it's just something that has to be done.

I never said I would not side with the mages. Just that it is hard to know how many really are blood mages and it is hard to justify the risk.

[Ryzaki]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Icy Magebane:
I could get behind that rationale if we dropped a giant bomb on the Circle, accepting that some innocents must die together with the blood mages. But it's different if you go in and kill everyone personally. There you have a choice for each individual, and "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" is not something any Hawke I would want to play can get behind.

I could also get behind that rationale if Meredith didn't call the RoA for an event unrelated to the Circle's mages. "One non-circle mage did this, so let's kill all mages in the Circle" is as insane a rationale as any.

I've played another Hawke who was pro-Templar for the whole game before the final decision, but I couldn't go along with Meredith.

Actually she sent for the RoA a while ago. Anders slaughter of Elthina just gives her the means to carry it out without waiting for a reply.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 novembre 2013 - 04:18 .

[Icy Magebane]

@draken-heart - To clarify my post, I agree with what you said. That is all.

The rest of the post was my personal response to Ieldra2. I didn't mean to speak on your behalf, or imply that my thoughts were an extension of your own.

[draken-heart]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Icy Magebane:
I could get behind that rationale if we dropped a giant bomb on the Circle, accepting that some innocents must die together with the blood mages. But it's different if you go in and kill everyone personally. There you have a choice for each individual, and "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" is not something any Hawke I would want to play can get behind.

I could also get behind that rationale if Meredith didn't call the RoA for an event unrelated to the Circle's mages. "One non-circle mage did this, so let's kill all mages in the Circle" is as insane a rationale as any.

I've played another Hawke who was pro-Templar for the whole game before the final decision, but I couldn't go along with Meredith.

Actually she sent for the RoA a while ago. Anders slaughter of Elthina just gives her the means to carry it out without waiting for a reply.

Exactly. the problem is not the Chantry explosion, as many who support the mages seem to forget when it is convenient.

[Xilizhra]

Exactly. the problem is not the Chantry explosion, as many who support the mages seem to forget when it is convenient.

Indeed. As always, the problem is the templars.

[dragonflight288]

Icy Magebane wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Icy Magebane:
I could get behind that rationale if we dropped a giant bomb on the Circle, accepting that some innocents must die together with the blood mages. But it's different if you go in and kill everyone personally. There you have a choice for each individual, and "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" is not something any Hawke I would want to play can get behind.

I could also get behind that rationale if Meredith didn't call the RoA for an event unrelated to the Circle's mages. "One non-circle mage did this, so let's kill all mages in the Circle" is as insane a rationale as any.

I've played another Hawke who was pro-Templar for the whole game before the final decision, but I couldn't go along with Meredith.

How can you tell a blood mage from an "innocent" mage? They have to use Blood magic to prove it. If they do not, they could all be blood mages.

Pretty much this...  The situation is far from ideal, but this is how the DA universe works.  You know that there are a lot of blood mages in Kirkwall and the Circle itself.  You know that mages have been escaping from the Circle based on prior quests.  These two facts on their own support the idea that the Circle is probably compromised.  The First and Senior Enchanters were well aware of the Rite when they either dabbled or looked past the dabbling of others... blood magic is forbidden, no exceptions.  Keep in mind that there are two options to complete this game, one of which demands that you release random mages into the countryside.  Since there's no way of knowing who taught what to whom, I find this decision to be entirely too risky.

If you agree to help Meredith, you are guaranteed to kill at least some innocents.  On the other hand, opposing her presents a similar moral dilemma. You are guaranteed to release at least some blood mages and maleficar into the world, which will likely lead to the deaths of innocents. 

I try not to base this decison on whether you would be personally executing these people... while it might not be as fun as killing bandits, if you take this path, it's just something that has to be done.

To quote my own Warden's dialoge option in the quest Broken Circle when talking to Cullen.

"I'd rather spare a maleficar than kill an innocent."

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
To quote my own Warden's dialoge option in the quest Broken Circle when talking to Cullen.

"I'd rather spare a maleficar than kill an innocent."

And then that maleficar escapes and kills dozens upon dozens of people.
Was it worth it?

[draken-heart]

Xilizhra wrote...

Exactly. the problem is not the Chantry explosion, as many who support the mages seem to forget when it is convenient.

Indeed. As always, the problem is the templars.

As varric tells the story, the problem between mages and Templars runs all the way back to Hawke's first year in Kirkwall.

Not the Tmeplars, not the Mages, but both of the idiot groups combined.

[Icy Magebane]

dragonflight288 wrote...

To quote my own Warden's dialoge option in the quest Broken Circle when talking to Cullen.

"I'd rather spare a maleficar than kill an innocent."

I'm sure the victims of those maleficar will be comforted by the sentiment as they face their deaths.  As Shepard would say "[Thedas] needs people like that.  People who do the dirty jobs."

The difference, of course, is that the Ferelden Circle could be saved.  Only laziness or... I guess hatred of mages... would cause you to wipe them out.  Honestly I never came up with a good reason for it, and I did try.  Plus, the options are "kill them all" or "allow them to continue living in the tower," not "kill them all" or "set everyone free."

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 17 novembre 2013 - 11:23 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm sure the victims of those maleficar will be comforted by the sentiment as they face their deaths. As Shepard would say "[Thedas] needs people like that. People who do the dirty jobs."

Not my Shepard. You might even be thinking of Donovan Hock.

Anyway, there are potential victims of hypothetical blood mages who may or may not be hostile... vs. hundreds of victims getting slaughtered right the hell now. The choice seems easy.

[Icy Magebane]

@Xilizhra - Shepard can say that in response to the Turian C-Sec commander in ME1, when they're discussing the Spectres. Obviously, not every Shepard would agree with that, but it's a decent enough counter-argument.

[CrimsonZephyr]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
To quote my own Warden's dialoge option in the quest Broken Circle when talking to Cullen.

"I'd rather spare a maleficar than kill an innocent."

And then that maleficar escapes and kills dozens upon dozens of people.
Was it worth it?

Let's say that 48 people are killed by one maleficar that escapes. Judging by the morality of most normal people in Thedas, five will be rapists, thirteen will be murderers, two will be extortionists, seven will be corrupt aristocrats, eleven will be thieves, seven will be religious zealots, leave three innocent peasants who will possibly be killed versus the dozens of innocents who will certainly die if you go through with the plan.

I don't have much sympathy of the nameless multitude in Thedas. Most are usually of the casually corrupt to totally monstrous persuasion anyway.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 18 novembre 2013 - 05:53 .

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
To quote my own Warden's dialoge option in the quest Broken Circle when talking to Cullen.

"I'd rather spare a maleficar than kill an innocent."

And then that maleficar escapes and kills dozens upon dozens of people.
Was it worth it?

It's worth it to the lives of the innocents spared, and their loved ones.

As for the guilty, I'd hunt them down ruthlessly and with extreme prejudice.