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[The Xand]

I can see why people would draw some parallels between the Maker and the real world Abrahamic god, but I want this made clear; the two are *not* one and the same and should not be treated as such. The two have very different identities.

On the one hand, if the Christians are to be believed you have a forgiving all benevolent entity that has a greater plan for all of us and a vested interest in humanity. On the other, you have an utterly indifferent god that has turned it's back on humanity completely, and if the Chantry is to be believed feels humans should collectively earn it's trust again and even punished humans with the Blights.

The Maker didn't even bother creating a proper afterlife for humans, since there is no heaven or hell in the DA universe, the best they offer is letting people "stand by the Maker's side", which we're not even sure where that is. The Black City? Yeah that's a cheery paradise.

Then there's the power levels of those respective gods. The Christians have progressively increased the power of theirs as a response to science pushing back the boundaries of the unknown until the modern Christian god is omnipotent and invisible, but the Chantry hasn't specified just how powerful it is or what it's limitations are. For all we know it's most powerful ability is churning out primeval creation matter like a Burger King.

That said we shouldn't feel that Bioware have to treat the Maker with the same degree of sanctity and apologism as the Christian god. Maybe infuse a little more personality into it. Even the Christian god had it's exciting Old Testament years, full of smiting and wrathful intervention.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 01:31 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually the Chant of Light does include an idea of heaven. Namely the Golden City, however the hubris of man, corrupted it making it the Black City. Forcing humanity to spread the Chant of Light to all corners of the world, for the gates of Heaven to open again.

Generally "power levels" are useless. They are both supposed creators of their universe. As understanding of the working of universes expands, so to must the god in question's power. People in the medieval times had no knowledge of gravity, back holes or super novas. Hell they didn't even know there were two whole continents more on the planet. As their understanding grew, so too must their idea of God for him to remain the creator. Basically as their knowledge of the world increases, so does their knowledge of god increases.
The same goes for the Maker and the people of Thedas. Thedosians are very limited in their understanding of the world. Yet they claim the Maker was the creator of it all. Ergo as Thedosians' knowledge of their world increase, so does their idea of the Maker's power increase.

The concept of both gods are very similar, and the reason for why people are making the comparisions are obvious. And the entire point of the Maker is for him to remain ambigious, so that there will never be an "ultimate truth" revealed.

[Boycott Bioware]

Of course The Maker is not a God...

Because even in literature, a "god" have their own characteristic, The Maker don't have any of those. Nothing in the game show of it's existence, nothing in the game showing it's intervention on everything.

Even in real life we could say "this must be the work of God" or "God have favor us today" and such thing, usually when something unexpected or beyond reasonable means happen.

In DA, there is no such thing, it is all what the characters are doing. We cannot say Anders blow up the Chantry is the work of God, the game don't allow that even it is established that Spirit is the Maker first children. The game don't even recognize divine intervention on things

So, that is why i do rise a question in other thread regarding the rage demon in DA:O Alienage, the Rage Demon say "There is no Maker, there is only demons"...see, he maybe lie, maybe speak the truth. What the demon say is serious in the lore, it contradicting itself

If the demon lie, then what? The Maker exist and makes all other religions as false? If he speak the truth than it means the Chantry is false. The lore never stated that The Maker, Creators and Ancestors are all EXIST in anyway...so when the demon say that, it is a heavy issue...they all can't be exist together, they all can''t be not exist. If the Dwarves are worshiping Ancestors that are not God, so what? They are "infidels" or pagan or what in religion?

Modifié par Qistina, 04 novembre 2013 - 02:17 .

[Hippiethecat124]

You keep pursuing this topic, even though it starts flames that make the toastiest pits in hell look like a present hearth.....

Yes, I agree with you that the Maker isn't a simple transplant of the Abrahamic God, but there do seem to be a few similarities in my opinion. But regardless of if my opinion is valid or not, when writing anything, you draw from what you know. I'm sure some aspects from everything and everyone in Thedas is partially based on something IRL, but we are in agreement that Maker =/= God.

Now, I'm probably going to back slowly out of this thread before something bad happens.

[The Xand]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Actually the Chant of Light does include an idea of heaven. Namely the Golden City, however the hubris of man, corrupted it making it the Black City. Forcing humanity to spread the Chant of Light to all corners of the world, for the gates of Heaven to open again.

That just proves my point. There isn't a heaven.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Generally "power levels" are useless. They are both supposed creators of their universe. As understanding of the working of universes expands, so to must the god in question's power. People in the medieval times had no knowledge of gravity, back holes or super novas. Hell they didn't even know there were two whole continents more on the planet. As their understanding grew, so too must their idea of God for him to remain the creator. Basically as their knowledge of the world increases, so does their knowledge of god increases.
The same goes for the Maker and the people of Thedas. Thedosians are very limited in their understanding of the world. Yet they claim the Maker was the creator of it all. Ergo as Thedosians' knowledge of their world increase, so does their idea of the Maker's power increase.

You mean they have to keep shifting the goalposts to stay relevant.

Regardless, the Maker is much more akin to a more human pagan creator deity than the Supergod the Christians worship today.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The concept of both gods are very similar, and the reason for why people are making the comparisions are obvious.

Does that mean most Christians view their own god as apathetic and uncaring? Because there's still the issue of very different moral stances taken by their respective gods and the Maker is more evil than anything.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And the entire point of the Maker is for him to remain ambigious, so that there will never be an "ultimate truth" revealed.

Yes and that proved uncreative, stale and uninteresting, which is why they're gearing up for a big reveal.

My guess is he's probably dead or evil.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 02:17 .

[LTD]

I've always felt that around the moment you feel need to be an atheist towards fictional gods of fictional high fantasy worlds, you are pretty much past the point where you were enough of an atheist for your own good:p

Modifié par LTD, 04 novembre 2013 - 02:21 .

[The Xand]

Qistina wrote...

Of course The Maker is not a God...

Because even in literature, a "god" have their own characteristic, The Maker don't have any of those. Nothing in the game show of it's existence, nothing in the game showing it's intervention on everything.

Even in real life we could say "this must be the work of God" or "God have favor us today" and such thing, usually when something unexpected or beyond reasonable means happen.

In DA, there is no such thing, it is all what the characters are doing. We cannot say Anders blow up the Chantry is the work of God, the game don't allow that even it is established that Spirit is the Maker first children. The game don't even recognize divine intervention on things

So, that is why i do rise a question in other thread regarding the rage demon in DA:O Alienage, the Rage Demon say "There is no Maker, there is only demons"...see, he maybe lie, maybe speak the truth. What the demon say is serious in the lore, it contradicting itself

If the demon lie, then what? The Maker exist and makes all other religions as false? If he speak the truth than it means the Chantry is false. The lore never stated that The Maker, Creators and Ancestors are all EXIST in anyway...so when the demon say that, it is a heavy issue...they all can't be exist together, they all can''t be not exist. If the Dwarves are worshiping Ancestors that are not God, so what? They are "infidels" or pagan or what in religion?

The way the lore is presented deliberately lends itself to questions, because everything the Chantry claims is meant to be taken subjectively and not at face value. That then beggars the question' if the Maker isn't as the Chantry says then what is it?

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 02:20 .

[Br3admax]

The forum or Xand's? This is his third thread in twelve hours.

[dreamgazer]

Sure, the Maker is little more than a master of ... enchantment.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 04 novembre 2013 - 02:33 .

[TurretSyndrome]

The Maker isn't God, but Gaider. Sorry, had to say that.

On topic, you have no proof that Maker isn't God.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I don't believe in the Maker.

[GreyLycanTrope]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Also, when did this become the forum's new favorite topic? Tired of romance and MxT, are we?

Who isn't?

[dreamgazer]

Greylycantrope wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Also, when did this become the forum's new favorite topic? Tired of romance and MxT, are we?

Who isn't?

I think it's time to start exploring the theory that nugs are the ones really responsible for the sky opening. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Greylycantrope wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Also, when did this become the forum's new favorite topic? Tired of romance and MxT, are we?

Who isn't?

I'm tired of people not willing to actually discuss it intelligently. The only place I can do that is the Miranda group.

[Boycott Bioware]

The Xand wrote..
The way the lore is presented deliberately lends itself to questions, because everything the Chantry claims is meant to be taken subjectively and not at face value. That then beggars the question' if the Maker isn't as the Chantry says then what is it?

The Warden maybe Dalish, so when the demon say "There is no Maker", the Dalish Warden may agree...but does that makes the Dalish believe what the demon say or what? It just that Dalish don't worship The Maker

see?

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreamgazer wrote...
I think it's time to start exploring the theory that nugs are the ones really responsible for the sky opening. 

Of course! Centuries of getting eaten has turned them against the world, now they're getting even.

[Boycott Bioware]

The game is already biased since the beginning of DA:O..."The Chantry teaches us that the darkspawn is bla bla bla...." and the slide show, the whole premise of the game is bias, it is based on Andrasterian point of view

Then DA2 is about Mage vs Templar again it is Andrasterian point of view...

This DA:I also Andrasterian...

The game is bias

[dreamgazer]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
I think it's time to start exploring the theory that nugs are the ones really responsible for the sky opening. 

Of course! Centuries of getting eaten has turned them against the world, now they're getting even.

The nugs will become Sandal's hellhounds. Mark my words. 

[TurretSyndrome]

Duncan's narration is only a part of the game's presentation of the world, not the presentation itself. Calling the game biased based on that, is inaccurate.

[Boycott Bioware]

The game is very clear to point out that that is what the CHANTRY teaches, not necessarily truth. The game doesn't act like the Chantry's beliefs are true.

Your character may mostly encounter Andrastian humans, but that's simply because that's where we're at most of the time. If the game were set in the Deep Roads completely (game idea: Complete hack n slash set in Deep Roads!) you'd be hearing all about the Stone and not about the Maker.

Yes, but it ends there...70% of the game is about Andraterians...finding the miraculous Ash of Andraste, finding Brother Genitivy, solving Templar-Mage problem, saving a village near the Chantry, Ferelden politic...

when you arrive at Ostagar, you see many priests, they chant and chant...you meet wynne that is pro Chantry and she repeat Chantry version, Alistair repeat the Chantry version,, even the Tranquil agree with you with "the Chantry claim magic is sinful"

The first thing you see after Ostagar is Lothering Chantry, there you hear about The Maker, Andraste and what not...then a lay sister named Leliana who later could be dead but not dead because "The Maker say it is not the time yet"...and you will hear lots of Andrasterian things from her...then Wynne

Even in Orzamar you will meet brother Burkle, not helping him makes you feel like "bad",the quest symbol will always on his head...

Your first buddy is also Andrasterian, a Templar....where is Dalish to hear about Dalish? None...Zevran is not Dalish. Oghren don't talk religion, Sten is completely out of universe, Morrigan is atheist

Modifié par Qistina, 04 novembre 2013 - 03:03 .

[The Xand]

Br3ad wrote...

The forum or Xand's? This is his third thread in twelve hours.

I bring life and goodness wheresoever I do tread.

EntropicAngel wrote...

The game is very clear to point out
that that is what the CHANTRY teaches, not necessarily truth. The game
doesn't act like the Chantry's beliefs are true.

Your character
may mostly encounter Andrastian humans, but that's simply because that's
where we're at most of the time. If the game were set in the Deep Roads
completely (game idea: Complete hack n slash set in Deep Roads!) you'd
be hearing all about the Stone and not about the Maker.

Aye, that's why I suspect there's a whole lot more to it than meets the eye. It seems like they've been building a plot twist from the very beginning and any revelations aren't just going to be a spontaneous thing. He's probably dead or a demon. The creator of the universe probably isn't sitting in some Black City in the middle of the Fade because that's just too attainable. The very fact that humans could transgress into his realm suggests it's nothing like the god the Christians worship.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 03:05 .