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[Boycott Bioware]

in DA:O, you will see and hear the same thing over and over in these places

Ostagar - lots of priests, Wynne and Alistair who propagate Chantry version
Lothering - you hear all about the Chants, even can argue with priests there
Denerim - you hear the sisters arguing about the Chant, if ask them they repeat the intro to you
Circle Tower - well, what to say? A Templar place, even Mage Origin heavily based on Chantry doctrine
Haven and Andraste Temple - insight about the Chantry
Orzamar - helping Chantry priest quest

* even Flemeth will repeat the Chantry version to you if you ask "What is an Archdemon exactly?"

A large part of the game is about Andrasterian....it's bias

In DA2, the whole thing is about Andrasterian...Hawke is human and Andrasterian...no access to learn other religion, Merill only told stories not sharing her point of view on things, just some dialogues and they are insignificant. There is no access to learn Dwarves religion. The whole of DA2 is about Andrasterians and Andrasterians problem

Modifié par Qistina, 04 novembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[Herr Uhl]

Andrastianism is the dominant religion in the regions of Thedas we've encountered. Of course there are going to be andrastians around you, anything else would be silly.

[Boycott Bioware]

EntropicAngel wrote...
As I said, that's because you're among humans, among Andrastians. It's got nothing to do with the game being biased and everything to do with you being around those kind of people all the time.

Lore must be based on facts, not just one side view, now we only get "Chantry version and Chantry point of view" on everything

Things about Mages are biased, things about Darkspawn are bias...we don't have anything to rely on other than "Chantry version"

[The Xand]

What if "the Maker" was just a Dreamer who planted ideas in Andraste's head?

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[Estelindis]

I'd like to comment at length on the gross oversimplification and, at times, distortion of Christian theology in the opening post, but this isn't the forum for it.

On-topic: I think that, while there are many differences between God/Christianity/Church and Maker/Chant of Light/Chantry, there are also plenty of similarities, which is why a lot of real-life attitudes towards the former get carried over to the latter. There are enough fantasy settings with powerful (but not omnipotent) interventionist divine beings arranged in pantheons to make the more realistic Dragon Age take on religion quite unusual. I find that religion often gets a very superficial treatment in fantasy literature. I think that Dragon Age would be better than average on this front but is still not the best. The Chalion series by Lois McMaster Bujold is one of the few that draws a fantasy spirituality in a sophisticated way and really raises the bar.

[Estelindis]

Qistina wrote...

Lore must be based on facts, not just one side view

Whatever gave you this impression?  Lore is based on the stories people tell, which, in a large part, is based on what people find most interesting or meaningful.  It may involve facts, but often enough it focuses more on a message - a message that might be true (e.g. elves should be able to feel pride about who they are) even if the story isn't historically accurate (e.g. a story someone makes up about an elven hero to inspire pride).

To the best of my recollection, every piece of Dragon Age lore in the codex is written from a particular subjective point of view.  Even when the author is trying their best to be an objective historian, their account is still coloured by what has influenced them in life.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Xand wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

The game is very clear to point out
that that is what the CHANTRY teaches, not necessarily truth. The game
doesn't act like the Chantry's beliefs are true.

Your character
may mostly encounter Andrastian humans, but that's simply because that's
where we're at most of the time. If the game were set in the Deep Roads
completely (game idea: Complete hack n slash set in Deep Roads!) you'd
be hearing all about the Stone and not about the Maker.

Aye, that's why I suspect there's a whole lot more to it than meets the eye. It seems like they've been building a plot twist from the very beginning and any revelations aren't just going to be a spontaneous thing. He's probably dead or a demon. The creator of the universe probably isn't sitting in some Black City in the middle of the Fade because that's just too attainable. The very fact that humans could transgress into his realm suggests it's nothing like the god the Christians worship.

If whatever is at the Black City is not the creator of the Thedas universe, then it isn't the Maker, despite what it might claim. All that will do, is open up the question: "Then who did create the universe?".
And that mages were able to transgress into Heaven itself might not be like our worlds God, doesn't really matter. They are not supposed to be perfect similes. However, humans also transgressed against God in our world, and according to the bible humans were punished for it. So they are still very much alike, which is again the entire purpose.

[Boycott Bioware]

In DA:O, there is no option to ask Hahren Paivel or sarel about the origin of Darkspawn, no option to ask Dwarves about their version of Darkspwn origin...no option at all

Elves live longer than human, such as Zathrian, surely he know about Darkspwn, but there is no option to ask him...i really want to ask him "What do you know about the Darkspawn and the Blight?"...come on, he live for centuries

Nothing...we have nothing than "Mages who enter the Golden city, tainting it and get cursed by The Maker, it is all Mages fault"...and that carry over to everything else in the game and the sentiment carry over to DA2...and now Mage-Templar war of DA:I...it is all based upon "Chantry version"

Modifié par Qistina, 04 novembre 2013 - 03:37 .

[The Xand]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If whatever is at the Black City is not the creator of the Thedas universe, then it isn't the Maker, despite what it might claim.

Well, yes, it would still be the Maker. My name literally means "defender of man" and I can't be arsed with any of that defensive guardian bollocks, but that doesn't mean my name doesn't still apply to me.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

All that will do, is open up the question: "Then who did create the universe?".

David Gaider

But in all srsness you can still have some non-existent/maybe existent deity even if the Maker turns out to be a deception (like, say, an idea planted into Andraste's mind by Dreamers). The question of an ultimate god would still be there.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And that mages were able to transgress into Heaven itself might not
be like our worlds God, doesn't really matter. They are not supposed to
be perfect similes. However, humans also transgressed against God in our
world, and according to the bible humans were punished for it. So they
are still very much alike, which is again the entire purpose.

The very fact that they were able to transgress into the Black City shows that the Maker isn't omnipotent, because evidently that city was never meant to be accessible to mortals and the Fade was deliberately seperated from the physical realm by the Veil. It's not quite like plucking an apple from a tree. Even if it was part of his plan for mankind to transgress then that means he deliberately engineered the Blights.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[Boycott Bioware]

The premise of the game is that "TEVINTER Mages goes into Golden City, cursed by THE MAKER, they become the first DARKSPAWN who bring THE BLIGHT"...that is the sentiment drive everything in DA world, the sentiment established by the Chantry that lead to everything

So, if the The Maker don't exist, then...?

See that? Or you guys still don't get what i am saying?

[GreyLycanTrope]

Qistina wrote...

In DA:O, there is no option to ask Hahren Paivel or sarel about the origin of Darkspawn, no option to ask Dwarves about their version of Darkspwn origin...no option at all

Elves live longer than human, such as Zathrian, surely he know about Darkspwn, but there is no option to ask him...i really want to ask him "What do you know about the Darkspawn and the Blight?"...come on, he live for centuries

Nothing...we have nothing than "Mages who enter the Golden city, tainting it and get cursed by The Maker, it is all Mages fault"...and that carry over to everything else in the game and the sentiment carry over to DA2...and now Mage-Templar war of DA:I...it is all based upon "Chantry version"

You know Alistair does say that no one is even sure if the Chantry version is true. It could have some elements of truth to it but that doesn't mean it completely accurate.

All we know for certain thanks to Corypheus, is that the blight has some connection with Tevinar magisters entering the fade and trying to find a golden city, beyond that no one knows for certain what they ran into, and as the Dwarves can't enter the fade and are unable to use magic their knowledge of events is unlikely. The elves are also unlikely to know an alternate version since most of their own history has been lost over the ages.

[Reznore57]

Even if the Maker didn't exist , magisters went to a golden city and caused a Blight.
It's sort of natural Humans freaked out and just said "OK we shouldn't go there , something went really wrong ."

If the elves knew more about the Golden city , well too bad ,Humans killed them all and destroy their knowledge.
Elves can't even remember how to use the Eluvian they created ...

Edit : well  Greylycantrope wrote the same thing ^^

Modifié par Reznore57, 04 novembre 2013 - 03:58 .

[Boycott Bioware]

You guys don't get what i am saying....

Never mind....

[Estelindis]

Qistina wrote...

The premise of the game is that "TEVINTER Mages goes into Golden City, cursed by THE MAKER, they become the first DARKSPAWN who bring THE BLIGHT"...that is the sentiment drive everything in DA world, the sentiment established by the Chantry that lead to everything

So, if the The Maker don't exist, then...?

See that? Or you guys still don't get what i am saying?

What you're saying is extremely obvious, in my opinion.  What puzzles me is that you think other people don't realise or understand what you've said.

Yes, of course the story is presented from the Chantry viewpoint, as it's the dominant one.  Yes, of course that viewpoint may be incorrect about several particulars.  Maybe we'll find out someday.  But a house of cards has to be built up before it can be knocked down.  Bioware are still painting us a picture of their world and I think have a lot more stories to tell before things get so shaken up that the setting becomes unrecognisable, if they even ever do that.

[The Xand]

Estelindis wrote...

Qistina wrote...

The premise of the game is that "TEVINTER Mages goes into Golden City, cursed by THE MAKER, they become the first DARKSPAWN who bring THE BLIGHT"...that is the sentiment drive everything in DA world, the sentiment established by the Chantry that lead to everything

So, if the The Maker don't exist, then...?

See that? Or you guys still don't get what i am saying?

What you're saying is extremely obvious, in my opinion.  What puzzles me is that you think other people don't realise or understand what you've said.

Yes, of course the story is presented from the Chantry viewpoint, as it's the dominant one.  Yes, of course that viewpoint may be incorrect about several particulars.  Maybe we'll find out someday.  But a house of cards has to be built up before it can be knocked down.  Bioware are still painting us a picture of their world and I think have a lot more stories to tell before things get so shaken up that the setting becomes unrecognisable, if they even ever do that.

The Chantry is already on it's knees at this point with the Templars and Seekers gone awol and the Magi gone fubar. The time seems ripe for revelations about the Black City, especially now that there's whopping great hole in the Fade that could possibly be used to enter it.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 04:07 .

[Boycott Bioware]

It is about YOUR judgment vs YOUR CHARACTER judgment...

Like i said earlier, the Demon said "There is NO MAKER", you as player have your own thought about that, but do your character do? Your character maybe Dalish or Dwarf who don't worship The Maker

The game started with Chantry sentiment over the all matters, but your character maybe not Andrasterian, but you don't get other than Andrasterian version...there is the bias...YOUR CHARACTER don't get anything than Chantry Version...the whole premise of the game is build upon Chantry belief or religion

It become easier in DA2 where your character is a human..

What if Hawke is NOT human?

[Estelindis]

The Xand wrote...

The Chantry is already on it's knees at this point with the Templars and Seekers gone awol and the Magi gone fubar. The time seems ripe for revelations about the Black City, especially now that there's whopping great hole in the Fade that could possibly be used to enter it.

I agree that the time is ripe for revelations about the Black City, but for the time being I think this will happen in a way that does not disprove most of the tenets of the Chantry.  The realism at the heart of Dragon Age requires many things, and, in my opinion, one of them is a religion that many people believe in, whose creed cannot wholly be proven or disproven.

[Ravensword]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Also, when did this become the forum's new favorite topic? Tired of romance and MxT, are we?

Consider it an improvement simply by virtues of being different than those topics you mentioned.

[The Xand]

Ravensword wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Also, when did this become the forum's new favorite topic? Tired of romance and MxT, are we?

Consider it an improvement simply by virtues of being different than those topics you mentioned.

What *is* MxT? And these are the sort of debates we should be having!

[Estelindis]

Qistina wrote...

It is about YOUR judgment vs YOUR CHARACTER judgment...

Like i said earlier, the Demon said "There is NO MAKER", you as player have your own thought about that, but do your character do? Your character maybe Dalish or Dwarf who don't worship The Maker

The game started with Chantry sentiment over the all matters, but your character maybe not Andrasterian, but you don't get other than Andrasterian version...there is the bias...YOUR CHARACTER don't get anything than Chantry Version...the whole premise of the game is build upon Chantry belief or religion

It become easier in DA2 where your character is a human..

What if Hawke is NOT human?

The Warden gets plenty of background about dwarven and elven beliefs, especially if dwarven or elven.  They don't give a lot of information on the Blight, the Black City, or related topics, but they do give plenty of information on their own cultures.  Why would the problems that focus on the Chant of Light be the most important for dwarves or elves?  Dwarves are still going to believe in the paragons and elves are still going to believe in their gods (if Dalish) and long for the past that they've lost.  I mean, as an elf, wouldn't it be more important to ask questions about stories of immortal elven lifespan in the past, what the relationship between the first elves and magic was, etc., than to be preoccupied with this Chantry stuff?  I will admit that I think that dwarves should probably be more preoccupied with darkspawn than most, considering the impact that darkspawn had on their civilization, but maybe that just means that they focus on how to fight them, not on how they came about.

[Boycott Bioware]

If Hawke is not human, a Dalish or Dwarf, his/her judgment on everything that happen between Templar and Mages are just BS...that is why the protagonist must be human because DA2 is heavily based upon Chantry issue

In DA:O, players might not aware that they are not playing as Andrasterian or human, that is why there are some who cry on why Alistair dump their Dalish Warden...

It is because of the devs failure to give balance for each race, the game itself is based upon Andrasterian belief...there is no opposition views on matters

[Herr Uhl]

The Xand wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Also, when did this become the forum's new favorite topic? Tired of romance and MxT, are we?

Consider it an improvement simply by virtues of being different than those topics you mentioned.

What *is* MxT? And these are the sort of debates we should be having!

Mages and templars. If a thread reaches more than 10 pages, chances are that it has that as a subject, and that it'll be the same people rehashing the same arguments they've spouted for years.

[Herr Uhl]

Qistina wrote...

In DA:O, players might not aware that they are not playing as Andrasterian or human, that is why there are some who cry on why Alistair dump their Dalish Warden...

That has nothing to do with Andrastianism.

[The Hierophant]

Qistina wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
As I said, that's because you're among humans, among Andrastians. It's got nothing to do with the game being biased and everything to do with you being around those kind of people all the time.

Lore must be based on facts, not just one side view, now we only get "Chantry version and Chantry point of view" on everything

Things about Mages are biased, things about Darkspawn are bias...we don't have anything to rely on other than "Chantry version"

False i remember a portion of the codices being written by non chantry affiliated authors, while a bulk of the mage or demon related codices were written by mages.