283 réponses à ce sujet

[Schneidend]

I think a lot of people are missing the point, here. What Xand is suggesting is that Bioware, from a writing and meta perspective, does not need to worry about offending Christians, Jews, Muslims, or other similar monotheistic faiths if it does any kind of big reveal about the Maker. The Maker is not a simple transplant of God, G-d, or Allah, hence Bioware is free to do whatever they want with the concept.

Whether or not the Maker is a god in-universe is irrelevant.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We know Xand is trying to push his "the Maker is evil" agenda on us. But he did also bring up something as ridiculous as "power levels". Stuff like that makes a discussion flow.

[9TailsFox]

My response to all Maker topics.
http://youtu.be/avlRM3x9xEw?t=11m51s
http://youtu.be/kJDg-JKn4r0?t=1m15s
I sure we not meet Maker or any other god actually in person (super powerful demon or human who say he is god he isn't).
proof start from 1:50 or watch from start it is interesting.

Modifié par 9TailsFox, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:11 .

[Herr Uhl]

Schneidend wrote...

I think a lot of people are missing the point, here. What Xand is suggesting is that Bioware, from a writing and meta perspective, does not need to worry about offending Christians, Jews, Muslims, or other similar monotheistic faiths if it does any kind of big reveal about the Maker. The Maker is not a simple transplant of God, G-d, or Allah, hence Bioware is free to do whatever they want with the concept.

Whether or not the Maker is a god in-universe is irrelevant.

The point of the Maker as a concept is to be analogous to Allah, God, Jaweh or whatever. Having a "real" kind of god is kind of novel in a fantasy setting.

Bioware is not being white bread because they're afraid of upsetting christians, but because it serves their purpose from a writing and meta perspective.

[Spectre slayer]

The Maker is a god but whether or not he is good, evil or neutral, created everything is up for debate since they've made it vague, but we do know that :he vanished and doesn't seem to care much about what's going on, as for what the chantry says how do we know they are telling us the truth about many things.

Since a few characters have brought up that what the chantry says and what the truth is might not be the truth also Anders says in legacy after the battle with Corypheus just what else are they not telling us or something like that.

[The Xand]

Schneidend wrote...

I think a lot of people are missing the point, here. What Xand is suggesting is that Bioware, from a writing and meta perspective, does not need to worry about offending Christians, Jews, Muslims, or other similar monotheistic faiths if it does any kind of big reveal about the Maker. The Maker is not a simple transplant of God, G-d, or Allah, hence Bioware is free to do whatever they want with the concept.

Whether or not the Maker is a god in-universe is irrelevant.

That's exactly what I was driving at before getting sidetracked with juicy debate. Atheists and especially the religious seem to think that the Maker *is* their god and don't want to see him disproved (or proved, for atheists). My point is that it isn't the real world, and it isn't their god and Bioware should be able to do what they want with it, without fear of upsetting the status quo.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We know Xand is trying to push
his "the Maker is evil" agenda on us. But he did also bring up something
as ridiculous as "power levels". Stuff like that makes a discussion
flow.

Ofc a power level of "infinity" is so much more sensible.

Herr Uhl wrote...

The point of the Maker as a concept is
to be analogous to Allah, God, Jaweh or whatever. Having a "real" kind
of god is kind of novel in a fantasy setting.

Bioware is not
being white bread because they're afraid of upsetting christians, but
because it serves their purpose from a writing and meta perspective.

And now it's served it's purpose and it's time to reveal the truth.

Probably something along the lines of "the Black City was created by humans" or "the Maker was primordial demon".

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 05:24 .

[9TailsFox]

Schneidend wrote...

I think a lot of people are missing the point, here. What Xand is suggesting is that Bioware, from a writing and meta perspective, does not need to worry about offending Christians, Jews, Muslims, or other similar monotheistic faiths if it does any kind of big reveal about the Maker. The Maker is not a simple transplant of God, G-d, or Allah, hence Bioware is free to do whatever they want with the concept.

Whether or not the Maker is a god in-universe is irrelevant.

People who want to be offended will always find reason to be offended.I respect people who believe in god. And hope than to respect me then i make fun out off religion. My grandmother very religious, so i just shut up and say nothing so i don't insult her.

[Vulpe]

Qistina wrote...

The premise of the game is that "TEVINTER Mages goes into Golden City, cursed by THE MAKER, they become the first DARKSPAWN who bring THE BLIGHT"...that is the sentiment drive everything in DA world, the sentiment established by the Chantry that lead to everything

So, if the The Maker don't exist, then...?

See that? Or you guys still don't get what i am saying?

But what if the Golden City was already corrupted and the Tevinter Mages where infected by the corruption and brought it in Thedas ?

[Hippiethecat124]

The "getting offended over daring to touch my religion" is just part of human nature. I appreciate what you're trying to say, and I'm sure others do too, but the people who are going to cry out over it probably already have their opinions formed, and aren't going to change their mind (unless they were simply uninformed in their opinion, and now (hopefully) have more grounds to form them on).

Regardless, the topic we are discussing is a GAME. It's purpose is to entertain, and even though it raises some thought provoking questions, I don't think the BW group writes to raise hackles (hence the Player-Sexual romances in later games). They don't want to offend, because bad publicity isn't a good business model. They even avoid referring to the Maker as a god, unless I have my thoughts wrong (which I very well could). It's sort of a "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" situation.

[The Xand]

Hippiethecat124 wrote...

The "getting offended over daring to touch my religion" is just part of human nature. I appreciate what you're trying to say, and I'm sure others do too, but the people who are going to cry out over it probably already have their opinions formed, and aren't going to change their mind (unless they were simply uninformed in their opinion, and now (hopefully) have more grounds to form them on).

Regardless, the topic we are discussing is a GAME. It's purpose is to entertain, and even though it raises some thought provoking questions, I don't think the BW group writes to raise hackles (hence the Player-Sexual romances in later games). They don't want to offend, because bad publicity isn't a good business model. They even avoid referring to the Maker as a god, unless I have my thoughts wrong (which I very well could). It's sort of a "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" situation.

That last bit about the Maker, is that true? They don't refer to him as a god at all?

JulianWellpit wrote...

Qistina wrote...

The
premise of the game is that "TEVINTER Mages goes into Golden City,
cursed by THE MAKER, they become the first DARKSPAWN who bring THE
BLIGHT"...that is the sentiment drive everything in DA world, the
sentiment established by the Chantry that lead to everything

So, if the The Maker don't exist, then...?

See that? Or you guys still don't get what i am saying?

But
what if the Golden City was already corrupted and the Tevinter Mages
where infected by the corruption and brought it in Thedas ?

I would be completely fine if there wasn't a Maker present in the city at all, and the Black City was something else entirely. You don't need to kill the Maker to wrap things up nicely. The thing the Chantry worships could just be a false god, an idol and the real Maker could be somewhere else.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 06:32 .

[9TailsFox]

The Xand wrote...

That last bit about the Maker, is that true? They don't refer to him as a god at all?

We and all characters in game refer to Maker as god because he is. Like Old gods or Elves gods. God is just name to any deity.

[The Xand]

9TailsFox wrote...

We and all characters in game refer to Maker as god because he is. Like Old gods or Elves gods. God is just name to any deity.

The Old Gods are just whopping great dragons so I bet the gods are just powerful Fade spirits, including the Maker. If I wanted to impress the crap out of mortals I'd tell them I created everything too. Who's to say I didn't?

[Medhia Nox]

Serious business happening right here, right now.

[Ravensword]

It really doesn't seem like the Maker actually exists.

[Herr Uhl]

The Xand wrote...

And now it's served it's purpose and it's time to reveal the truth.

I disagree. 

Probably something along the lines of "the Black City was created by humans" or "the Maker was primordial demon".

I also disagree with the hypothesis that you keep banging on about.

[The Xand]

Ravensword wrote...

It really doesn't seem like the Maker actually exists.

That's likely going to be the big reveal. Hope so anyway, because the Maker is already boring to nonexistent already. Needs a revamp or to be removed.

EntropicAngel wrote...

We have no in-game evidence of this latest claim of your that the Maker is in the Black City.

Just like the thread itself! Who'da thunk.

Where else is he going to be? He was certainly present when the Tevinters "transgressed" even despite the throne being empty.

Herr Uhl wrote...

I disagree.

You would.

Herr Uhl wrote...

I also disagree with the hypothesis that you keep banging on about.

An imposter Maker makes more sense than the current one and better fits in with the lore.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:16 .

[Schneidend]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The point of the Maker as a concept is to be analogous to Allah, God, Jaweh or whatever. Having a "real" kind of god is kind of novel in a fantasy setting.

Bioware is not being white bread because they're afraid of upsetting christians, but because it serves their purpose from a writing and meta perspective.

Clearly, though, something Maker-related is going to happen eventually. Dragon Age flirts with the nature of faith far too often for them to not do anything with the Maker.

[The Xand]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Where else is he going to be? He was certainly present when the Tevinters "transgressed" even despite the throne being empty.

"Where else could he be" is not evidence.

At all.

Like, not even 1% of evidence.

And how do you know he was present? You don't know that at all. If he's truly an omnipotent and omniscient god (omnipresent excluded for our example), he could have seen them enter and then turn the city black or them into darkspawn.

And if we consider Him like the Abrahamic God and have Him omnipresent as well...He's not "hiding out" anywhere.

It says in the Chantry verses you're so fond of. There's your evidence yo.

Why do we have to assume that the Maker is the omnipotent all knowing god of modern Christianity? He certainly never saw the Tevinters coming. And if he did then he's evil, even if he wasn't the one responsible for tainting them and casting them out. Which he probably did.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:26 .

[Xilizhra]

Schneidend wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The point of the Maker as a concept is to be analogous to Allah, God, Jaweh or whatever. Having a "real" kind of god is kind of novel in a fantasy setting.

Bioware is not being white bread because they're afraid of upsetting christians, but because it serves their purpose from a writing and meta perspective.

Clearly, though, something Maker-related is going to happen eventually. Dragon Age flirts with the nature of faith far too often for them to not do anything with the Maker.

Assuming, of course, that the Maker actually exists.

[Fredward]

Meh. I wouldn't invite either to a tea party.

[The Xand]

Xilizhra wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The point of the Maker as a concept is to be analogous to Allah, God, Jaweh or whatever. Having a "real" kind of god is kind of novel in a fantasy setting.

Bioware is not being white bread because they're afraid of upsetting christians, but because it serves their purpose from a writing and meta perspective.

Clearly, though, something Maker-related is going to happen eventually. Dragon Age flirts with the nature of faith far too often for them to not do anything with the Maker.

Assuming, of course, that the Maker actually exists.

That would be a cool plot twist. I'd rather an evil imposter Maker, or even a Zeus style Maker but that works nicely too.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:28 .