283 réponses à ce sujet

[Estelindis]

The Xand wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

It really doesn't seem like the Maker actually exists.

That's likely going to be the big reveal. Hope so anyway, because the Maker is already boring to nonexistent already. Needs a revamp or to be removed.

I really don't think that's going to happen.  Dragon Age seems to be trying to take a reasonably sophisticated approach to religion (by comparison to other fantasies with their cardboard-cutout pantheons).  The way that in-universe theology and spiritual perspectives are written evinces an awareness on the part of the developers of the complex relationship between immanence and transcendence in religious experience.  I think that's too interesting to be replaced by a black and white disproof.  It would be an impoverished religious narrative by comparison to what's already there.  I strongly suspect that if any aspect of the Andrastian narrative is proven to be false, it won't undermine the possible truth of the rest of their creed.

[Schneidend]

Xilizhra wrote...

Assuming, of course, that the Maker actually exists.

Perhaps that's what's going to happen.

[The Xand]

Schneidend wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Assuming, of course, that the Maker actually exists.

Perhaps that's what's going to happen.

I don't care if it is or isn't real, I just want something to happen. It's boring as it is now and Bioware shouldn't be afraid of upsetting the status quo because people want/don't want god to be real.

Modifié par The Xand, 04 novembre 2013 - 09:13 .

[Estelindis]

The Xand wrote...

I don't care if it is or isn't real, I just want something to happen. It's boring as it is now and Bioware shouldn't be afraid of upsetting the status quo because people want/don't want god to be real.

Personally, I don't think it's boring.  I think that there are a lot of layers to this fictional religion.  Perhaps you haven't noticed them or you don't find them interesting, but they can intrigue other people.

[Heimdall]

Estelindis wrote...

The Xand wrote...

I don't care if it is or isn't real, I just want something to happen. It's boring as it is now and Bioware shouldn't be afraid of upsetting the status quo because people want/don't want god to be real.

Personally, I don't think it's boring.  I think that there are a lot of layers to this fictional religion.  Perhaps you haven't noticed them or you don't find them interesting, but they can intrigue other people.

Agreed.  Personally I'd rather Dragon Age not turn into a setting where it becomes fact that Andrastrians are absolutely correct or incorrect.  The ambiguity of the truth makes them more interesting to me, otherwise I'd likely dismiss them as delusional cultists and never take a follower of Andraste seriously again.

[Estelindis]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Agreed.  Personally I'd rather Dragon Age not turn into a setting where it becomes fact that Andrastrians are absolutely correct or incorrect.  The ambiguity of the truth makes them more interesting to me, otherwise I'd likely dismiss them as delusional cultists and never take a follower of Andraste seriously again.

Precisely.  If the Chantry was clearly wrong (or right!) about everything, then we wouldn't have the wide range of its followers that we see in the games.  

Modifié par Estelindis, 04 novembre 2013 - 09:30 .

[Xilizhra]

I personally hate having the truth deliberately concealed from me, and want to know the answer to this question eventually.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

I personally hate having the truth deliberately concealed from me, and want to know the answer to this question eventually.

In-universe or outside of the universe?  If after, say, twenty games, the venerable devs decided to finish writing about Dragon Age, and subsequently revealed the truth of all its secrets in a series of interviews or books, but left things ambiguous in the actual universe from the point of view of its characters, would that satisfy you? 

[Xilizhra]

Estelindis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I personally hate having the truth deliberately concealed from me, and want to know the answer to this question eventually.

In-universe or outside of the universe?  If after, say, twenty games, the venerable devs decided to finish writing about Dragon Age, and subsequently revealed the truth of all its secrets in a series of interviews or books, but left things ambiguous in the actual universe from the point of view of its characters, would that satisfy you? 

It'd be better than nothing... but narrowly. There'd be no in-game payoff.

[teenparty]

The Xand wrote...


On the one hand, if the Christians are to be believed you have a forgiving all benevolent entity that has a greater plan for all of us and a vested interest in humanity. On the other, you have an utterly indifferent god that has turned it's back on humanity completely, and if the Chantry is to be believed feels humans should collectively earn it's trust again and even punished humans with the Blights.

So DA is set somewhere between the fall of Adam and the pact with Abraham.

The Xand wrote...

The Maker didn't even bother creating a proper afterlife for humans, since there is no heaven or hell in the DA universe, the best they offer is letting people "stand by the Maker's side", which we're not even sure where that is. The Black City? Yeah that's a cheery paradise.

There is little theological support for heaven or hell in Christian and Jewish scripture.

Not convinced OP.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...

It'd be better than nothing... but narrowly. There'd be no in-game payoff.

And do your characters feel the same way, desperately burning to know this?  Who or what do you, or they, think would reveal the truth to them?

[Allan Schumacher]

Personally, I don't think it's boring. I think that there are a lot of layers to this fictional religion. Perhaps you haven't noticed them or you don't find them interesting, but they can intrigue other people.

The prevalence of it as a topic leads me to think that many people find it interesting, as well.

I find the response and discussion somewhat fascinating myself.

[Ridwan]

God is not a concept rooted to a religion. You can be irreligious and not follow any faith and still believe in God.

Also I always find it amusing how militant some of you internet atheists can be.

[Dayze]

Thematically speaking; Dragonage seems to present Gods as existing, being powerful and something "else" but not really as "gods" in the sense we think of them or their followers think of them.

There would also seem to be something connecting all the religions; their beliefs seem to have similarities and when the mages went to the Golden City it was because the old gods "invited" them not because they were trying to steal the power of the maker.

So going by how they've done it so far; on some level the basic concept and involvement of "The Maker" is true but will be off or different in some way from how the majority of them believe in it....will be weaker/less godly than its followers believe it to be, involve the other religions and demons in some way etc....

If you mean "The Maker" exists exactly as the Chantry believes in it to be; than no it doesn't exist, there is in all likelihood no Maker such as they believe in.

But there is probably something that exists of above human supernatural power responsible for many of the actions attributed to it via The Chantry.

[Dayze]

M25105 wrote...

God is not a concept rooted to a religion. You can be irreligious and not follow any faith and still believe in God.

Also I always find it amusing how militant some of you internet atheists can be.

Well; you know spend half of your life listening to the majority of the population spout ignorant BS and bullsquavitz and act like its actually reasonable and not be able to have conversations about it on the slightest level because they go into conniptions by having the slightest bit of challenge to their ideas and actually having the freedom to engage the subject for once.

Probably makes some of them overly energetic in the discussion.

[Dayze]

Dayze wrote...

M25105 wrote...

God is not a concept rooted to a religion. You can be irreligious and not follow any faith and still believe in God.

Also I always find it amusing how militant some of you internet atheists can be.

Well; you know spend half of your life listening to the majority of the population spout ignorant BS and bullsquavitz and act like its actually reasonable and not be able to have conversations about it on the slightest level because they go into conniptions by having the slightest bit of challenge to their ideas and actually having the freedom to engage the subject for once.

Probably makes some of them overly energetic in the discussion.

Also I think most of the people involved in this discussion are of the religious bent.

As for why people who are religious might be defensive about "The Maker" and the Chantry; simply any argument that can be made towards a religious organization and entity, if its a good one can ultimately be applied to another religion.

[Ridwan]

wrong quote.

Modifié par M25105, 04 novembre 2013 - 11:11 .

[Reznore57]

I would say the theme may be more about "Power".
What if mortals had the powers of gods in their hands(magic ) , what would happen?
How would they shape things , destroy , abuse , control, try to understand this?

I think Gods in this settings are figure heads , we may meet lesser Gods (like Archdemons) and wonder well who cared about their Godlike status?
Let's kill them (or preserve with the Dark Ritual)...
As for The God , I think it's fine to just wonder if humanity shape this current reality (as in being responsible for the Veil , demons , Blights etc).
I mean the Maker , and other type of gods (like the Dalish one , the creators...) are just not fun.
We're gone but if you believe enough we will come back?...Yeah well things to do, places to explore , new lore to find.I don't have time for this.

[Ridwan]

9TailsFox wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

I think a lot of people are missing the point, here. What Xand is suggesting is that Bioware, from a writing and meta perspective, does not need to worry about offending Christians, Jews, Muslims, or other similar monotheistic faiths if it does any kind of big reveal about the Maker. The Maker is not a simple transplant of God, G-d, or Allah, hence Bioware is free to do whatever they want with the concept.

Whether or not the Maker is a god in-universe is irrelevant.

People who want to be offended will always find reason to be offended.I respect people who believe in god. And hope than to respect me then i make fun out off religion. My grandmother very religious, so i just shut up and say nothing so i don't insult her.

Lol at that picture, the old tired dumb excuse that religion causes all war.

[unbentbuzzkill]

But his/her name is The Maker! If he/she isn't god what is it? Perhaps the name is suppose to be The Baker, yeah that makes more sense.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

The Xand wrote...

I can see why people would draw some parallels between the Maker and the real world Abrahamic god, but I want this made clear; the two are *not* one and the same and should not be treated as such. The two have very different identities.

On the one hand, if the Christians are to be believed you have a forgiving all benevolent entity that has a greater plan for all of us and a vested interest in humanity. On the other, you have an utterly indifferent god that has turned it's back on humanity completely, and if the Chantry is to be believed feels humans should collectively earn it's trust again and even punished humans with the Blights.

The Maker didn't even bother creating a proper afterlife for humans, since there is no heaven or hell in the DA universe, the best they offer is letting people "stand by the Maker's side", which we're not even sure where that is. The Black City? Yeah that's a cheery paradise.

Then there's the power levels of those respective gods. The Christians have progressively increased the power of theirs as a response to science pushing back the boundaries of the unknown until the modern Christian god is omnipotent and invisible, but the Chantry hasn't specified just how powerful it is or what it's limitations are. For all we know it's most powerful ability is churning out primeval creation matter like a Burger King.

That said we shouldn't feel that Bioware have to treat the Maker with the same degree of sanctity and apologism as the Christian god. Maybe infuse a little more personality into it. Even the Christian god had it's exciting Old Testament years, full of smiting and wrathful intervention.

How do you know any of this? Maybe there's heaven and hell in the DA world but in the devs haven't revealed it. What the chantry says is their belief, not fact. Maybe there isn't heaven and hell in OUR world. Cough.

It's obvious the maker is meant to be god when they substitute maker for sayings involving god.

[Stakrin]

The Xand wrote...
The Christians have progressively increased the power of theirs as a response to science pushing back the boundaries of the unknown until the modern Christian God is omnipotent and invisible

Right . I am going to assume you may have a little bit of bias in not wanting  "the Christian God" involved. 


It could be the same entity, that one group of people fears a bit more, and feels said entity needs to be appeased .

[Estelindis]

Dayze wrote...

Also I think most of the people involved in this discussion are of the religious bent.

As for why people who are religious might be defensive about "The Maker" and the Chantry; simply any argument that can be made towards a religious organization and entity, if its a good one can ultimately be applied to another religion.

It's very possible to spend a couple of hours reading the Dragon Age codex and know all there is publically to know about the religions of Thedas.  You could spend a whole lifetime studying real world religions and still not know even 1% of everything there is publically to know.  Competence in the former field of knowledge should not be presumed to grant competence in the latter.

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

Perhaps the name is suppose to be The Baker, yeah that makes more sense.

Baker's breath!  

Modifié par Estelindis, 04 novembre 2013 - 11:37 .

[Dave of Canada]

I don't understand why people need to bring their real-world vendetta against organized religion in a video game.