283 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Personally, I think there is no Maker.

I  think the Maker was deliberately introduced because up until then
we had the pantheon of Elven Gods and the 7 Old Gods. He was introduced to counter the other deitical concepts. Before the invention of the Maker or any mention of Maker, there were religions / cults with multiple deities. & we saw what happened when one of them were directly involved in unleashing the Darkspwawn & Blights. The other one were not human-derived and therfore not acceptable among humans in Thedas.

So I am of the opinion that there was a perception that multiple gods
& religions / cults with multiple deities are a thing of evil and
therefore must be done away with. Hence the invention of a monotheistic
religion and the Maker.

The Maker & the Chantry was just a response to the Elven Gods and the Old Gods of Tevinter. Everyone wants someone big & OP they can look up to. In the same way Buddhism was a response to Hinduism and in the same way Christianity was a response to Roman Paganism.

In the end I think what Thedas have when it comes to deities are powerful & advanced beings like the 7 Dragons. Not really gods, just powerful beings. In the same way as the Norse mythology where we have Asgardians, Dark Elves, Frost Giants who are all just powerful beings.

Not one single, immortal, overpowered diety who gives up easily on his creations.

[AFG-47]

The Christian God and Abrahamic God are not interchangeable. Abrahamic God implies the inclusion of two other religions along with Christianity, all three of which have pretty substantial differences in their belief in God.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Xand wrote...
That's exactly what I was driving at before getting sidetracked with juicy debate. Atheists and especially the religious seem to think that the Maker *is* their god and don't want to see him disproved (or proved, for atheists). My point is that it isn't the real world, and it isn't their god and Bioware should be able to do what they want with it, without fear of upsetting the status quo.

Yes, you are right...however!
Just because they can do whatever they want, doesn't mean they should do what you want.
You keep trying to sell your prefered plot twist as some kind of objectively brilliant move...which is not.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dayze wrote...

M25105 wrote...
Also I always find it amusing how militant some of you internet atheists can be.

Well; you know spend half of your life listening to the majority of the population EVERYONE spout ignorant BS and bullsquavitz

Fixed it for you.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There existed the idea of an absent creator before Andraste preached her knowledge of the Maker to Thedas. At the time, the god that would be called the Maker was an "obscure" deity.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

There existed the idea of an absent creator before Andraste preached her knowledge of the Maker to Thedas. At the time, the god that would be called the Maker was an "obscure" deity.

I think the Maker...if he existed..most probably he didn't...would be godly in some aspects....I mean he made a woman cheat on her Barbarian General Warlord....

[Ieldra]

The Chantry is a deliberate "parallel with twists" to the Roman Catholic Church in the time between the Great Schism of 1054 and the Reformation, including the rival organization in an empire with parallels to the Byzantine Empire. And the Maker is a creator god worshipped through a monotheistic religion.

The parallels are too striking to just ignore.

Theoretically, the narrative can indeed go anywhere, but the parallels restrict the choices which can be made without damaging the integrity of the setting. The setup enables the story to carry certain religious themes well, but it has the disadvantage that what the DA team does with it could be seen as a thematic statement carrying over to the real world. They will want to avoid making a definite thematic statement, while - ideally - enabling the player to write their own preferences into the story by making appropriate decisions. This is an extremely difficult thing to do, a knife's edge balance, actually, but if anyone can do it, it's Bioware.

I predict that this will happen:

There will no confirmation of the Maker as a deity, nor a reveal of him as a demon. The Maker will stay outside of observable reality, and whatever thematic statements the story might make or enable players to make about him, will done to or by his proxy, the Chantry. This makes it possible to continue to portray the Chantry as a realistic organization and do whatever with it, good or bad, without making a statement about faith at the same time. So it might be possible that a DA story will let us make decisions where we get the whole Chantry as an antagonist, but never the Maker.

What I would wish the story to avoid, and what it hasn't avoided successfully yet, is the implicit statement that the monotheistic religion (in terms of real-world effects, regardless of metaphysical truth) is the good one. The Old Gods are associated with Tevinter, the qunari philosophy disqualifies itself by its extremism, regardless of whether some of its principles appear attractive, and the elven gods are for the elves only (unlike the Qun). The Chantry appears to be the best of the bad. I think it is very important for future stories to feature something good, and good in a big way, not just insignificant snippets, about cultures not associated with the Chantry and Orlesian Andrasteanism.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 novembre 2013 - 11:14 .

[Adela]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't understand why people need to bring their real-world vendetta against organized religion in a video game.

pretty much this.. ^

[Star fury]

Atheism in a fantasy game where gods can and do exist is strange.

[Br3admax]

Star fury wrote...

Atheism in a fantasy game where gods can and do exist is strange.

Assuming that because a bunch of immortal dragons exist, that every god is real is equally strange.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Br3ad wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Atheism in a fantasy game where gods can and do exist is strange.

Assuming that because a bunch of immortal dragons exist, that every god is real is equally strange.

Yeah. Also, in any religious society it is assumed their god or gods are real. That doesn't mean they are.

[Ieldra]

Star fury wrote...
Atheism in a fantasy game where gods can and do exist is strange.

Actually, it isn't. Where some gods prove their existence by manifesting as dragons, it's even more appropriate to question the existence of those who don't.

Also, note that whether or not a given existing entity is a god is entirely a matter of perspective - or definition. Any existing god - and any one entering observable reality from a previously unobservable state - is or will be indistinguishable from a non-human super-mage with earth-shattering powers. You might call Flemeth a deity with as much justification as the Old Gods, or deny the Old Gods their status with as much justification as denying it Flemeth. Should the Maker enter observable reality, the same will apply to him.

Real superpowered entities cannot escape being subject to the same kind of scrutiny as mundane superpowers. If they act, there will always be a political dimension to it, and it will unavoidably sometimes be in conflict with the entity's spiritual dimension, damaging its moral integrity, which is why the enduring power of a religion depends on its gods remaining unobservable.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 novembre 2013 - 12:54 .

[Ridwan]

Star fury wrote...

Dayze wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Dayze wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Qistina wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
Ok and?

And so whatever your character point of view about the religion not effecting anything

In fact I would want Thedas folk burning your character for atheism, because freedom of religion is anomal for Medieval society.

True it was an anomally but it did exist in a few countries.

Care to elaborate?

Off-hand I remember there was at least one pagan country in Europe that had some religious freedom, didn't like christians but on a whole was okay with the concept.

I "think" some Muslim countries were someone okay with religious freedom.

To give any thing more I'm going to have go and look it up again, so if you really want me too I'll try and find it.

Yeah, I think you mean Cathars and Arab Haliphate but they were still religious and did not tolerate atheism. Most of Europe and Asia were still fanatical and fought countless religious wars.

No, not really.

[Star fury]

M25105 wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Dayze wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Dayze wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Qistina wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
Ok and?

And so whatever your character point of view about the religion not effecting anything

In fact I would want Thedas folk burning your character for atheism, because freedom of religion is anomal for Medieval society.

True it was an anomally but it did exist in a few countries.

Care to elaborate?

Off-hand I remember there was at least one pagan country in Europe that had some religious freedom, didn't like christians but on a whole was okay with the concept.

I "think" some Muslim countries were someone okay with religious freedom.

To give any thing more I'm going to have go and look it up again, so if you really want me too I'll try and find it.

Yeah, I think you mean Cathars and Arab Haliphate but they were still religious and did not tolerate atheism. Most of Europe and Asia were still fanatical and fought countless religious wars.

No, not really.

Okay.

[Eternal Phoenix]

The Xand wrote...
Then there's the power levels of those respective gods. The Christians have progressively increased the power of theirs as a response to science pushing back the boundaries of the unknown until the modern Christian god is omnipotent and invisible...

Um, no, the Abrahamic God has always be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Contrary to your calumniation, there is no conflict between science and religion unless you make one yourself but that's your choice, not mine.

The only scientific discovery ever disagreeing with religious text in such a major extent was evolution. This never led to anyone making up that the Abrahamic God was omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent though as these things were said back in the OT as well as the NT.

I don't care what anyone's belief here is. I just wanted to correct this misinformation.

The Xand wrote...
That said we shouldn't feel that Bioware have to treat the Maker with the same degree of sanctity and apologism as the Christian god. Maybe infuse a little more personality into it. Even the Christian god had it's exciting Old Testament years, full of smiting and wrathful intervention.

I don't think they do.

At the same time though, they have clearly based The Maker off of the Abarahamic God. Even certain verses of the chant are from The Bible. This surprised me greatly when I went into Dragon Age: Origins for the first time (only knowing a little of the game from two walkthroughs), and encountered a chanter and then the codex entry for The Maker. I thought Jesus himself was going to walk out of nowhere at one point and start preaching.

So much of The Maker and Andraste religion is inspired by Christianity, so that if Bioware begun attacking it in an overly negative way, it'll be seen as an attack against a real life religion. If Bioware never wanted this correlation and free reign then they shouldn't have based a fictional religion off of a real life one.

For the god with more personaility you have the old gods of the Tevinter Imperium and the Eleven gods. Why does The Maker need to be injected with more "personality" if you don't mean "I want Bioware to go onto an anti-religion and anti-god crusade because Assassin's Creed didn't fill me with enough anti-religious material"? Let's be honest here, that's what this is all about really.

For me, The Maker is fine as it is: unknowable, ambiguous and open to interpretation. Not many fantasy games do that with gods anymore. You also have the Tevinter and Eleven gods for the more Greek Patheon type of gods. The only similarity The Maker has with them then is that he took Andraste as a "bride" which could be symbolic or actually mean that he loved as a husband loves his wife (which would make him compare to a Greek Patheon god in having such desires and not being above his own creations).

It's funny that no one here ever brings up Urthemiel or Zazikel. Or how about Mythal or Elgar'nan? It's always The Maker and the reason always presents itself in subsequent OP posts where they reveal their contempt for real life religion. These same people never attack the evil actions of Zeus or Odin in real life. These same people attack The Maker but not Mythal or Elgar'nan.

In any case, I'm a man of God but I don't think he's the "loving father" of the typical Christian but I don't think he's the "demon who slept with my wife, which is why she calls out to him during sex and not me! and who also killed evil people who I didn't know thousands of years ago and my father died of cancer which was his fault and totally not nature's!" of the anti-god crowd either. I think he's the ultimate troll. Just a fun loving troll who is having the time of his life from the irrational hatred of a crowd who apparently doesn't believe he exists. Yes, I would want to spend eternity up there with him because judging by life (including my own) I KNOW he has a great sense of humor.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 05 novembre 2013 - 02:14 .

[Estelindis]

Elton John is dead wrote...

So much of The Maker and Andraste religion is inspired by Christianity, so that if Bioware begun attacking it in an overly negative way, it'll be seen as an attack against a real life religion. If Bioware never wanted this correlation and free reign then they shouldn't have based a fictional religion off of a real life one.

In fairness, fantasy fiction always has a certain way of relating to and speaking of the real world.  If it had nothing in common, people probably wouldn't find it as interesting, assuming it was even comprehensible at all.

[MisanthropePrime]

I, Anders, ask you a question. Is a mage not entitled to the magic in his blood?

"No!" says the man in Minrathous. "It belongs to the Imperium!"
"No!" says the woman in Val Royeaux. "It belongs to mankind!"
"No!" says the woman in Qunandar. "It belongs to the Qun!"

Modifié par MisanthropePrime, 05 novembre 2013 - 02:51 .

[Estelindis]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I, Anders, ask you a question. Is a mage not entitled to the magic in his blood?

"No!" says the man in Minrathous. "It belongs to the Imperium!"
"No!" says the woman in Val Royeaux. "It belongs to mankind!"
"No!" says the woman in Qunandar. "It belongs to the Qun!"

Nice reference.  Unfortunately, I think that it misses the point.  A mage is entitled to the magic in his blood, but not to use it to hurt or dominate others.  The question is really how to stop mages who wish to use their magic against others, while respecting the rights of mages who are happy to live in peace.

[Memengwa]

I threw out a "crazy" theory sometime ago in some thread (don't remember which one) that the Maker is just another spirit/demon in the Fade, albeit a very powerful one.

Different demons/spirits, based on how powerful they are can bend the "reality" of the Fade to their will, creating things there and making them seem real. Items, rooms, etc.

So, Thedas could actually be part of the Fade, and the Veil is just a boundary between Maker's creation and the rest of the Fade.

[MisanthropePrime]

Estelindis wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I, Anders, ask you a question. Is a mage not entitled to the magic in his blood?

"No!" says the man in Minrathous. "It belongs to the Imperium!"
"No!" says the woman in Val Royeaux. "It belongs to mankind!"
"No!" says the woman in Qunandar. "It belongs to the Qun!"

Nice reference.  Unfortunately, I think that it misses the point.  A mage is entitled to the magic in his blood, but not to use it to hurt or dominate others.  The question is really how to stop mages who wish to use their magic against others, while respecting the rights of mages who are happy to live in peace.

What right do the meek have to dictate the will of the mighty?

[Estelindis]

Memengwa wrote...

Thedas could actually be part of the Fade, and the Veil is just a boundary between Maker's creation and the rest of the Fade.

That's really a meaningless distinction.  You'd just substitute "Fade vs. World" for "one bit of Fade vs. other bit of Fade."  It wouldn't actually make a difference to anything.  The world would still be what people experience from day to day, and they would still experience it exactly the same way, regardless of how it might be classified in a universal sense.

[Estelindis]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

What right do the meek have to dictate the will of the mighty?

If the highest normative value that you acknowledge is strength, then it is meaningless to discuss rights.

[Memengwa]

Estelindis wrote...

Memengwa wrote...

Thedas could actually be part of the Fade, and the Veil is just a boundary between Maker's creation and the rest of the Fade.

That's really a meaningless distinction.  You'd just substitute "Fade vs. World" for "one bit of Fade vs. other bit of Fade."  It wouldn't actually make a difference to anything.  The world would still be what people experience from day to day, and they would still experience it exactly the same way, regardless of how it might be classified in a universal sense.

That's what I'm trying to point out.

[TurretSyndrome]

Memengwa wrote...

I threw out a "crazy" theory sometime ago in some thread (don't remember which one) that the Maker is just another spirit/demon in the Fade, albeit a very powerful one.

Different demons/spirits, based on how powerful they are can bend the "reality" of the Fade to their will, creating things there and making them seem real. Items, rooms, etc.

So, Thedas could actually be part of the Fade, and the Veil is just a boundary between Maker's creation and the rest of the Fade.

I never thought of it as a crazy theory. After getting into the lore of Dragon Age so much, seeing all the things that I have, I believe it's one of those possibilities with a high probability rate.