283 réponses à ce sujet

[KC_Prototype]

Maker=Creator Creator=God. It's simple.

[The Xand]

KC_Prototype wrote...

Maker=Creator Creator=God. It's simple.

Which creator gods though? I'd love it if it turned out the Maker was essentially Kronos and the Old Gods his Olympian offspring. 7 Old Gods rather than 12, because 7 is a sacred number in Christianity.

Modifié par The Xand, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:37 .

[Estelindis]

The Xand wrote...

7 Old Gods rather than 12, because 7 is a sacred number in Christianity.

So is 12.  I doubt that the number of seven old gods was chosen for the reason you suggest.

[The Xand]

Estelindis wrote...

The Xand wrote...

7 Old Gods rather than 12, because 7 is a sacred number in Christianity.

So is 12.  I doubt that the number of seven old gods was chosen for the reason you suggest.

7 is the most sacred number, and most occurring. The Old Gods seem like the Maker's own 7 Deadly Sins.

[Estelindis]

The Xand wrote...

7 is the most sacred number, and most occurring.

Plenty of numbers have been considered important by Christians: 3, 12, 40, etc.  That is without even touching what it really means for something to be "sacred."  It would be less dubious if you restrained yourself to stating that seven is a significant number and left it there.

The Xand wrote...

The Old Gods seem like the Maker's own 7 Deadly Sins.

It's not even a sure thing that the Maker created the old gods.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Do we know if there are specifically 7 old gods only?

Also, shouldn't it be a number that is relevant to thedas and not our world? Like 8?

[Estelindis]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Do we know if there are specifically 7 old gods only?

Well, I don't think we know if there "are" only seven old gods, but I think that we do know that seven were worshipped, e.g. in Tevinter.  Historical records seem to show it.  Moreover, certain dates are named according to the old gods (even though many seem to have "revised" Andrastian names).  I suppose that this is a little bit like the days of our week coming from Norse gods.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Also, shouldn't it be a number that is relevant to thedas and not our world? Like 8?

Arguably, yes.  It could also be argued that certain numbers just feel more special to us than others and thus tend to get trotted out when writers want to add gravitas to something (e.g., perhaps, the "rule of three").  However, this isn't necessarily a reason to keep doing it that way.

[The Xand]

Estelindis wrote...

The Xand wrote...

7 is the most sacred number, and most occurring.

Plenty of numbers have been considered important by Christians: 3, 12, 40, etc.  That is without even touching what it really means for something to be "sacred."  It would be less dubious if you restrained yourself to stating that seven is a significant number and left it there.

The Xand wrote...

The Old Gods seem like the Maker's own 7 Deadly Sins.

It's not even a sure thing that the Maker created the old gods.

Trust me. 7 is the single most sacred and reoccurring number to Christians. That number does seem to get trotted out a lot though.

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Do we know if there are specifically 7 old gods only?

Also, shouldn't it be a number that is relevant to thedas and not our world? Like 8?

That's a fair point. I've often wondered if the 11 elven gods weren't tied in to things somehow, or Old God like creatures.

The number 7 I thought significant because of it's intimate ties with Christianity. The seven headed beast in particular that spoke with the voice of a dragon.

Modifié par The Xand, 12 novembre 2013 - 01:59 .

[Br3admax]

TipsLeFedora wrote...

... I'm god...

I knew it. 

[Estelindis]

The Xand wrote...

Trust me. 7 is the single most sacred and reoccurring number to Christians.

Trust is not necessary when statements are backed up.  However, the source to which you linked does not state that seven is the most sacred and reoccuring.  It simply lists occurances.

I think it would be best if I ceased discussing this with you, because we seem to have different standards for proving things and real-world religion is off-topic.

[Br3admax]

The Xand wrote...


Trust me. 7 is the single most sacred and reoccurring number to Christians. That number does seem to get trotted out a lot though.

Reoccurring=sacred.

#truth 

[The Xand]

Br3ad wrote...

The Xand wrote...


Trust me. 7 is the single most sacred and reoccurring number to Christians. That number does seem to get trotted out a lot though.

Reoccurring=sacred.

#truth 

No, they just used it because it sounded cool. Definitely no religious significance or symbolism.

Jesus was a pretty reoccurring figure too, and the messages he preached. They couldn't possibly be sacred either, non?

Modifié par The Xand, 12 novembre 2013 - 02:09 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

[The Xand]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Uhuh. That must be why it's the goto number of choice for Christianity.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Sacred numbers: They're so holy you cannot even choose them for your routine life and works. ?
Evil number (too evil to choose): 666?
Significant numbers: They're important and many entities and subjects have been separated with these numbers or these are the number of how many are they. 3 - 4 - 7 - 11 - 12 etc.

[Vulpe]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

They're not sacred as you might imagine them. It's not like in a religious fashion (mostly). It's more of a poetic one. There are some poets and writers that use the motif of sacred numbers like 3, 7, 6 or multiples of those numbers in their poems of short stories/novels. For example 7 is the number of creation, and 49 is seven times seven.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 12 novembre 2013 - 11:36 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Xand wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Uhuh. That must be why it's the goto number of choice for Christianity.

Frequently used number? So what? How does that make it sacred?

There is no larger significance to it nor some divine meaning or importance.
Just like 666 (which is nothing more than a redicolous rambling), 7 means nothing really.

[Dayze]

Estelindis wrote...

The Xand wrote...

7 is the most sacred number, and most occurring.

Plenty of numbers have been considered important by Christians: 3, 12, 40, etc.  That is without even touching what it really means for something to be "sacred."  It would be less dubious if you restrained yourself to stating that seven is a significant number and left it there.

The Xand wrote...

The Old Gods seem like the Maker's own 7 Deadly Sins.

It's not even a sure thing that the Maker created the old gods.

Actually I'm pretty sure Gaider himself said on one of the interviews that they were non-created entities or some such sort of thing.

[Stakrin]

It honestly kind of reminds me of a story I heard...(I believe one my friends wrote for a fanfiction) about an archangel Sameal, who wanted to prove he was able to do God's job, and recreated an earth replica, but when war broke out he got stressed and turned his back, waiting for the war to settle, or for them to physically locate him.

[Dayze]

Estelindis wrote...

Dayze wrote...

Yeah but the Chantry believes the fade/world are effectively two different things and the part tended to be thought of as "The Fade" as being first.

But if "The World" was first......that would pretty much annhilate the Andrastian/Chantry power structure.

Maybe I'm misremembering but didn't it get implied that the Fade as we know it was not always around?  If so; and its more recent and not the originator that throws an intense amount of doubt on all the the Andrastian/Maker related mythology.

I mean thats a bit more than being a little off about the motivations of people doing something but being basically right about what happened more or less ala the Tevinters and the Golden City or even the spirits/demons not knowing if there is an after life or not.

While not quite the same as the theory originally being discussed, this is actually fascinating.  If the world was created before the Fade, it could have serious implications.  In both cases, the Maker could still be disappointed in his creations - but, in this modified understanding, the people of Thedas would be his first creations and the spirits of the Fade would be improvements, having something that people lack - or, possibly, lacking something that the Maker subsequently decided should not have been in his creation after all.  

According to the original Chant, demons are spirits that envy the "better" creations in Thedas...  But, if what you said was actually correct, then people going to the Fade during dreams would actually be like demons, casting their thoughts to a better world that they envy.  To take that even further, the Magisters, who went physically into the Fade, would be as horrid as demons manifesting physically in Thedas.

I await someone who has thought about this at greater length to puncture the theory, but for now I can happily say: mind = blown.

While I'm at it, though the subject is different, I might as well respond to something you posted last week as well.  

Dayze wrote...

Its still a fear that religious types can hold and a not unfounded one; to some extent its just a matter of cut and paste.

Make an argument against a religious organization based on faith that is based on attacking the nature of faith or some other basic aspect of religious or mythologies and it could come back to them.

I disagree.  While I cannot speak for all "religious types," I consider the fear to be utterly unfounded.  The Chant of Light, while put together by some great writers and better than the average fantasy religion, is extremely shallow compared to the real religions followed by most people.  In my opinion, anyone who would feel threatened by the kind of argument that could disprove the Chant is on shaky ground to begin with.  A faith that could be undermined by a Thedosian argument could be undermined even better by a million real-world arguments.  Just as real religions are much deeper and more interesting than fantasy ones, so the best arguments for and against them are better than the best arguments concerning fantasy faiths.  

Dayze wrote...

Though thinking about it; we don't really know much about The Chantry or the Canticles of Light or the general myths of Thedas......by comparision we have the entirety of the bible to read, a pretty strong history of many countries and incidents, philosphical writings of people from many religions in the real world.

We actually have a "much" better, indepth and easily gotten sources of information for most religions in existance as to any of the religions in Thedas.

"We" as a species have a better knowledge of real religions than we do of the Chant, if one just means that there is far more knowledge to be had.  Of course, in terms of percentages, we as a species know a higher percentage of what is to be known about the Chant (i.e. what has currently been invented about it by writers, rather than what may be assumed to exist in-world) than we do about real religions.  The Chant is new.  Little, if any, information about it can have been lost to the mists of time.

However, even when speaking of a total amount of information, "we" does not refer to the average person, because most people only know a small amount of all there is to know concerning religion (or, for that matter, most topics).  "We" clearly does not refer to you or any of the other participants in this thread, including me.

We don't really know much about the chant at all; we have heard what a couple verses in the entirety of Dragonage?

Of something that can take days of constant speaking to verbalize all of it?

We have effectively a couple sentences of The Chant versus the entirety of not only one but multiple bibles, philosphers etc....

As for any argument that can be used against one religion could be used against them all; sure you might argue that someone who could be swayed by an argument based on another religion and redesigned over their own might be on shaky ground.  But lets be honest, many people are.

Or even a generalized argument against the nature of Faith; that and the idea of supporting another religion, even fictional. could mean having to look at other religions as legitimate viewpoints of faith and philosphy as opposed to their own.

And if your a hardcore; only my religion is valid type, just going that direction could rock the faith.

 

[Estelindis]

Dayze wrote...

I'm pretty sure Gaider himself said on one of the interviews that they were non-created entities or some such sort of thing.

Yes, exactly.

Dayze wrote...

As for any argument that can be used against one religion could be used against them all; sure you might argue that someone who could be swayed by an argument based on another religion and redesigned over their own might be on shaky ground.  But lets be honest, many people are.

My experience is precisely the opposite, so I disagree.  However, as this argument is all about real-world religion, with the only small references to Dragon Age religion relating back to real-world religions rather than standing on their own, I really think that it would be best if we just dropped this tangent.  

[Nightdragon8]

The Xand wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Uhuh. That must be why it's the goto number of choice for Christianity.

.... just because "Christianity" has deemed a number "sacred" doesn't mean its "sacred" to EVERYONE. there are other relgions other than Christianity. You would think crossing yourself would be a "sacred" act but in reality there are 2 methoids of doing it and they both consider eachother "wrong" in doing it.

So can we end the discussion here on "7" being a "sacred" number

Honestly I think the Maker could be Shiva. Not just the christianity god, there are too many "maker" gods in the real world for anyone to honestly

[Siegdrifa]

The Xand wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

The Xand wrote...


Trust me. 7 is the single most sacred and reoccurring number to Christians. That number does seem to get trotted out a lot though.

Reoccurring=sacred.

#truth 

No, they just used it because it sounded cool. Definitely no religious significance or symbolism.

Jesus was a pretty reoccurring figure too, and the messages he preached. They couldn't possibly be sacred either, non?

Ah, please, the number 7 is not just about christians, it started millenia before JC with Jews and " 7 ".
And in case you don't know, all 3 monotheist religion are linked. Christians aknwoledge JC as the God's prophet, Jews do not and are still waiting for their prohet, but all christians revere the God from the Old Testament (Torah).
Mahomed was taught by Gabriel (yes, the same angle in both Old and New testament), and in muslime religion, JC (Isa) is revered as one of the prophet but they do not belive that he is the God's son nor he died then resurected. However, in both Coran and New Testament, for the end of time, they say that JC will come back to fight the antechrist (for Christian) dajjal (for muslimes) and win.

Anyway, this is a video games, and this is a fictionnal religion, and IMO, Andraste's fate looks a lot like Janne D'Arc : both had a task revealed by God, both raised an army and had followers to free from oppression, both won multiple battles without being a warrior, and both ended burned, exept that the life of Janne D'Arc is not a fiction.

In the end, i don't expect fictionnal religion to never share some common points with non fictionnal religion, because it needs to speak for itself as a religion that seem believable in the story and for the audiance of the game.
But unlike old religions we know, fictionnal religion such as the Maker in DA can change or bring new points and perspective on the next DA chapter, while Torah, Evangiles and Coran will stay the same (unless older version proove a different version of course) because this is a fictionnal religion on a "ongoing serie", the writers can use and modify it to spice and legitime the plot of the next game, comic, whatever.
That's why it's no big deal if there is some ressemblance at some point but none should take it as only 1 unique religion from real world dissimulated in the game, unless it is the writters intent.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 16 novembre 2013 - 02:14 .

[The Xand]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Honestly I think the Maker could be Shiva.

The Destroyer?

Modifié par The Xand, 16 novembre 2013 - 02:11 .