283 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

And I would have to argue that seven probably is the most spiritually significant of all numbers held to be sacred according to Jewish and Christian tradition.  It's the number of completion, or perfection. 

Sure, other numbers have spiritual significance by those same traditions: 40, 12, 144.  But it's fair to argue that seven is by far the most holy.  I think it actually is even considered the number of God.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

And I would have to argue that seven probably is the most spiritually significant of all numbers held to be sacred according to Jewish and Christian tradition.  It's the number of completion, or perfection. 

Sure, other numbers have spiritual significance by those same traditions: 40, 12, 144.  But it's fair to argue that seven is by far the most holy.  I think it actually is even considered the number of God.

It is God's "number" because he made the world in 6 days, and rested on the 7th, a Sunday.

[The Xand]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

And I would have to argue that seven probably is the most spiritually significant of all numbers held to be sacred according to Jewish and Christian tradition.  It's the number of completion, or perfection. 

Sure, other numbers have spiritual significance by those same traditions: 40, 12, 144.  But it's fair to argue that seven is by far the most holy.  I think it actually is even considered the number of God.

It is God's "number" because he made the world in 6 days, and rested on the 7th, a Sunday.

I think what a lot of people seem to be missing is that one of the primary aspects of religion is symbolism, and numbers can be just as symbolic as anything else, often reoccurring regularly. People might not "worship" the numbers as sacred but they're still significant.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

And I would have to argue that seven probably is the most spiritually significant of all numbers held to be sacred according to Jewish and Christian tradition.  It's the number of completion, or perfection. 

Sure, other numbers have spiritual significance by those same traditions: 40, 12, 144.  But it's fair to argue that seven is by far the most holy.  I think it actually is even considered the number of God.

It is God's "number" because he made the world in 6 days, and rested on the 7th, a Sunday.

I think traditions tend to hold that he made the world in six days and rested on the 7th because 7 is the holy number of completion, actually, rather than the other way 'round.  Either way I'm not trying to argue the reasons for it, I just don't understand why people are arguing that seven isn't a holy number, when even a passing acquaintance with monotheistic religious tradition clearly shows that it is.

Modifié par Silfren, 16 novembre 2013 - 03:02 .

[Siegdrifa]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

And I would have to argue that seven probably is the most spiritually significant of all numbers held to be sacred according to Jewish and Christian tradition.  It's the number of completion, or perfection. 

Sure, other numbers have spiritual significance by those same traditions: 40, 12, 144.  But it's fair to argue that seven is by far the most holy.  I think it actually is even considered the number of God.

It is God's "number" because he made the world in 6 days, and rested on the 7th, a Sunday.

There is a lot more about 7.

Try to check the book " 777 " from Pierre Jovanovic, there is many exemple and references (to religious texte as source). It is not everything but it is a good start on " 7 " when and why.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 16 novembre 2013 - 02:49 .

[kinderschlager]

just wanted to say i'm impressed this (for the most part) remained a mature and thoughtful discussion (and that the mods didn't read the word "religion" and insta lock it)

just kinda sad i missed it till now

[The Xand]

kinderschlager wrote...

just wanted to say i'm impressed this (for the most part) remained a mature and thoughtful discussion (and that the mods didn't read the word "religion" and insta lock it)

just kinda sad i missed it till now

Thank you! Everyone who's posted has had valid and excellent input and the discussion has gone to pretty interesting areas.

Modifié par The Xand, 16 novembre 2013 - 10:15 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

There aren't any and that is not ignorance.

The one who proclaim those numbers "sacred" and those who belive such crap are the ignorant ones.

For example - Do you even know from where the number 666 comes from?
The answer- a tottaly crackpot mathematical formula by a Pope high on acid. And the formula he used was redicolous.
IIRC, it was something like "current year" - "year pop clementX was born(because that pope hated hisguts or something)" + numebr of ship in spains navy, etc, etc...
Not those exact things, but somewhere in the ballpark.

[Vulpe]

Stakrin wrote...

It honestly kind of reminds me of a story I heard...(I believe one my friends wrote for a fanfiction) about an archangel Sameal, who wanted to prove he was able to do God's job, and recreated an earth replica, but when war broke out he got stressed and turned his back, waiting for the war to settle, or for them to physically locate him.

Are you sure he wasn't called Samael ? All angels end in "el" and that would translate as "God". So each angel name would mean "... God ". For example Michael means " Who is like God ?", Gabriel means "the strenght of God" and so on. 

Samael means "the severity of God" and is often depicted as the angel of death. Fen'Harel kind of remindes me of him. Samael is considered as a good and evil angel at the same time. In The Talmud he is considered to be the angel that seduced Eve and the father of Cain, the angel that wrestled Jacob and the angel that held Abraham's hand to stop him from killing his son. He is also seen as an accuser and as a destroyer and he has grim duties to acomplish , something like Fen'Harel did when he imprisoned all the elven dieties, be them good or evil. 

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

And I would have to argue that seven probably is the most spiritually significant of all numbers held to be sacred according to Jewish and Christian tradition.  It's the number of completion, or perfection.  

Sure, other numbers have spiritual significance by those same traditions: 40, 12, 144.  But it's fair to argue that seven is by far the most holy.  I think it actually is even considered the number of God.

I think it's a close call between 3 and 7. As eluvianix said, 7 could be attributed to the creation of the world in 7 days by God ( and frankly it's found in The Bible multiple times - not necesarily depicting something good - The Seven Seals Of The Apocalypse, The Seven Headed Beast etc. ). 3 is often attributed to the Holy Trinity.

So it comes to personal preferences 

EDIT

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

There aren't any and that is not ignorance.

The one who proclaim those numbers "sacred" and those who belive such crap are the ignorant ones.

For example - Do you even know from where the number 666 comes from?
The answer- a tottaly crackpot mathematical formula by a Pope high on acid. And the formula he used was redicolous. 
IIRC, it was something like "current year" - "year pop clementX was born(because that pope hated hisguts or something)" + numebr of ship in spains navy, etc, etc...
Not those exact things, but somewhere in the ballpark.

You must understand that the sacred numbers are not revered and are not seen sacred as in the sense God is seen sacred. It has a more methaporical approach to it. 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 16 novembre 2013 - 11:24 .

[Siegdrifa]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

There aren't any and that is not ignorance.

The one who proclaim those numbers "sacred" and those who belive such crap are the ignorant ones.

For example - Do you even know from where the number 666 comes from?
The answer- a tottaly crackpot mathematical formula by a Pope high on acid. And the formula he used was redicolous.
IIRC, it was something like "current year" - "year pop clementX was born(because that pope hated hisguts or something)" + numebr of ship in spains navy, etc, etc...
Not those exact things, but somewhere in the ballpark.

You are misundertanding 2 things; existence of the number, and his justification to calculate it.
666 (number of the beast) is written in the apocalypse of St Jean, so, long before this Pope.
Many people tryed to find out why with their formula.
In the Old Testament, 666 is the number of "talent" of gold that the King Salomon is having by year.

[The Xand]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

There aren't any and that is not ignorance.

The one who proclaim those numbers "sacred" and those who belive such crap are the ignorant ones.

For example - Do you even know from where the number 666 comes from?
The answer- a tottaly crackpot mathematical formula by a Pope high on acid. And the formula he used was redicolous.
IIRC, it was something like "current year" - "year pop clementX was born(because that pope hated hisguts or something)" + numebr of ship in spains navy, etc, etc...
Not those exact things, but somewhere in the ballpark.

You are misundertanding 2 things; existence of the number, and his justification to calculate it.
666 (number of the beast) is written in the apocalypse of St Jean, so, long before this Pope.
Many people tryed to find out why with their formula.
In the Old Testament, 666 is the number of "talent" of gold that the King Salomon is having by year.

Iirc 666 is just Christian code for Nero and the seven-headed beast was Rome. Written by a crazy old man hiding in a cave from the Roman Empire. Convenient that Rome had seven hills because that's a very significant number to Christians.

[The Xand]

JulianWellpit wrote...

Are you sure he wasn't called Samael ? All angels end in "el" and that would translate as "God". So each angel name would mean "... God ". For example Michael means " Who is like God ?", Gabriel means "the strenght of God" and so on. 

Samael means "the severity of God" and is often depicted as the angel of death. Fen'Harel kind of remindes me of him. Samael is considered as a good and evil angel at the same time. In The Talmud he is considered to be the angel that seduced Eve and the father of Cain, the angel that wrestled Jacob and the angel that held Abraham's hand to stop him from killing his son. He is also seen as an accuser and as a destroyer and he has grim duties to acomplish , something like Fen'Harel did when he imprisoned all the elven dieties, be them good or evil.

You know, that's actually a pretty cool naming scheme for the angels. If you dropped the "of God" you could just call them things like "The Wrath", "The Hope", "The Smile", "The Wisdom" and so on.

JulianWellpit wrote...

You must understand that the sacred numbers are not revered and are not seen sacred as in the sense God is seen sacred. It has a more methaporical approach to it. 

That's what I've been driving at! You explained it rather better than I have so far.

[Siegdrifa]

The Xand wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There are no sacred numbers. Thats' just bollocks.

Um.  Yes, there are.  Within a religious context, obviously: numbers don't have any innate sense of sacredness on their own, but it's appallingly ignorant to just outright say there are no sacred numbers.

There aren't any and that is not ignorance.

The one who proclaim those numbers "sacred" and those who belive such crap are the ignorant ones.

For example - Do you even know from where the number 666 comes from?
The answer- a tottaly crackpot mathematical formula by a Pope high on acid. And the formula he used was redicolous.
IIRC, it was something like "current year" - "year pop clementX was born(because that pope hated hisguts or something)" + numebr of ship in spains navy, etc, etc...
Not those exact things, but somewhere in the ballpark.

You are misundertanding 2 things; existence of the number, and his justification to calculate it.
666 (number of the beast) is written in the apocalypse of St Jean, so, long before this Pope.
Many people tryed to find out why with their formula.
In the Old Testament, 666 is the number of "talent" of gold that the King Salomon is having by year.

Iirc 666 is just Christian code for Nero and the seven-headed beast was Rome. Written by a crazy old man hiding in a cave from the Roman Empire. Convenient that Rome had seven hills because that's a very significant number to Christians.

Like everytime when they wanted to justify the apocalyps, after they thought it was Napoleon for Britain, and Russia during the cold war, and China after that.
Exept that Neron was dead about 30 years before Jean wrote the Apocalyps. So there would be no meaning in a text revealing the end of time in future for a guy that died 30 years before.
And for the seven headed beast with 10 horns, i don't intend to devloppe the justification in order to keep this thread from too much passion and lock.

If you are intrested in Angles Angels name, you can check The Book of Enoch.
You should not however cut the "from God" of angels, because angles are sent from God to accomplish a duty.
Their existance and purpose are given by God, if not, they are not angels.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 16 novembre 2013 - 12:37 .

[The Xand]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Like everytime when they wanted to justify the apocalyps, after they thought it was Napoleon for Britain, and Russia during the cold war, and China after that.
Exept that Neron was dead about 30 years before Jean wrote the Apocalyps. So there would be no meaning in a text revealing the end of time in future for a guy that died 30 years before.
And for the seven headed beast with 10 horns, i don't intend to devloppe the justification in order to keep this thread from too much passion and lock.

Lol. It's like Nostradamus. The trick seems to be to make your "prophecies" vague enough to apply to anything.

Siegdrifa wrote...

If you are intrested in Angles name, you can check The Book of Enoch.
You should not however cut the "from God" of angles, because angles are sent from God to accomplish a duty.
Their existance and purpose are given by God, if not, they are not angles.

I'm sure the English will be overjoyed to hear that.

[Siegdrifa]

The Xand wrote...


I'm sure the English will be overjoyed to hear that.

Sorry, i don't get the meaning behind that.

edit:
Are you refering to Protestant and their religous traditions ?

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 16 novembre 2013 - 12:28 .

[The Xand]

Siegdrifa wrote...

The Xand wrote...


I'm sure the English will be overjoyed to hear that.

Sorry, i don't get the meaning behind that.

edit:
Are you refering to Protestant and their religous traditions ?

No, these lads.

[Siegdrifa]

The Xand wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

The Xand wrote...


I'm sure the English will be overjoyed to hear that.

Sorry, i don't get the meaning behind that.

edit:
Are you refering to Protestant and their religous traditions ?

No, these lads.

Ah sorry, my french, i wrote Angles instead of Angels. going to edit my post as it is an important distinction.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 16 novembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[The Xand]

Siegdrifa wrote...

The Xand wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

The Xand wrote...


I'm sure the English will be overjoyed to hear that.

Sorry, i don't get the meaning behind that.

edit:
Are you refering to Protestant and their religous traditions ?

No, these lads.

Ah sorry, my french, i wrote Angles instead of Angels. going to edit my post as it is an important distinction.

Well at least you're better equipped with a romance language to woo the ladies with than me. Doric just isn't the same. If ye ken fit ah'm sayin' like. *shudders*

[Siegdrifa]

The Xand wrote...

Well at least you're better equipped with a romance language to woo the ladies with than me. Doric just isn't the same. If ye ken fit ah'm sayin' like. *shudders*

I'll tell that to my girl friend next time, but since she is Thai and do not speak nor understand french (exept Je t'aime), you make me feel like i wasted something   : ))

* Ah, ma petite fleur bleu, comme tu es belle ce matin . *
/HS

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 16 novembre 2013 - 01:14 .

[Vulpe]

Je crois que le langue francais est populaire et elle est considere le langue d'amour par les populations germaniques  parce qu'elle est tres fluid et musical. Pour les hommes que parlent un langue latine,comme les italiens ou les roumaines, francais est seulement une langue soeur .

Back on topic

It is believed that 666 is writen in a jewish coding system known as Gematria. It wasn't developed or used by the christians, but by the jews.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 16 novembre 2013 - 04:03 .

[Joshuajet]

The Abrahamic god has commanded people to conquer in his name which, like the Blights that the Maker created as punishment, caused a lot of deaths. I don't want to start a religious war but the Abrahamic God is not really more benevolent than the Maker.

Modifié par Joshuajet, 16 novembre 2013 - 04:07 .

[Heimdall]

Joshuajet wrote...

the Abrahamic God is not really more benevolent than the Maker.

Depends on which bit of scripture you happen to be reading.

[Hellion Rex]

Joshuajet wrote...

The Abrahamic god has commanded people to conquer in his name which, like the Blights that the Maker created as punishment, caused a lot of deaths. I don't want to start a religious war but the Abrahamic God is not really more benevolent than the Maker.

Even in the Old Testament, God has an amazing benevolent side.

[The Xand]

eluvianix wrote...

Joshuajet wrote...

The Abrahamic god has commanded people to conquer in his name which, like the Blights that the Maker created as punishment, caused a lot of deaths. I don't want to start a religious war but the Abrahamic God is not really more benevolent than the Maker.

Even in the Old Testament, God has an amazing benevolent side.

And a fantastic sense of humour. Like that one time he told some dude to sacrifice his son to him, then at the last minute was like "Loljokes".

[Hellion Rex]

The Xand wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Joshuajet wrote...

The Abrahamic god has commanded people to conquer in his name which, like the Blights that the Maker created as punishment, caused a lot of deaths. I don't want to start a religious war but the Abrahamic God is not really more benevolent than the Maker.

Even in the Old Testament, God has an amazing benevolent side.

And a fantastic sense of humour. Like that one time he told some dude to sacrifice his son to him, then at the last minute was like "Loljokes".

Not the best example, perhaps. I have issues with that story.