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[Undead Han]

If you were a writer or one of the project leads what would you have done differently with your favorite character(s)? On the BSN people are often fond of pointing out the perceived flaws with the plot or character arcs of the characters they don't like, even though their own favorites often suffer from similar problems. So rather than another round of waifu wars, lets be honest about what we didn't like or would have changed about characters we otherwise view as our favorites.

Garrus:

He didn't have a lot of personality in Mass Effect 1, though to be fair this was a problem to varying degrees with all of the alien squadmates except for maybe Wrex. All of the alien squaddies were weighed down by info dumps, and Bioware had not yet mastered character interaction. The character interaction was something that steadily improved as the series progressed. In comparison to ME3, ME1 Garrus seems boring.

I also thought his Omega batman reveal was kind of silly. Besides discarding Shepard's mentor role in ME1 and whether or not Garrus was advised to return to C-Sec or apply for Spectre training, it didn't make much sense for a character who knew a Reaper invasion was coming to go play vigilante on Omega. Even if Garrus had succeeded and managed to install some form of law-and-order on Omega, what purpose would that serve? Immediately after the Reapers would invade and wipe Omega clean of all life. Instead I think whatever Garrus was doing at the start of ME2 should have been tied to the greater struggle against the Reapers. There should have been some rhyme and reason to his post-ME1 activities.

Also, calibrations. In ME2 he doesn't have a lot to say if he isn't being romanced.



Liara:

Like Garrus her character was saddled with info dumps in the first game that made her less interesting. To varying degrees this was a problem with all the alien characters in the first game, and because of that you don't get a sense that you know who these characters are to the same extent that you do Ashley and Kaiden. They spend too much time talking about their species or governments and not enough about themselves.

As I'm not a fan of the common Bioware trope of the awkward-and-virginal companion who wasn't ready for a relationship until being blinded by the player character's awesomeness, I'd also have discarded that. Adult characters should have adult lives.

Liara's background as an archaeologist also made her an odd choice for squadmate. It doesn't make a lot of sense why a character with no previous military background is now filling in as a member of a special operations team member on combat missions. Instead some prior military service should have been written into her background. Given that Benezia was grooming her for politics and Liara's decision to pursue a career as a scientist was seen as defiance and met with disapproval, they could have had Benezia refuse to pay for her education. Liara then obtains that education via the Asari Republics' equivalent of the Montgomery GI Bill after a period of military service. In the game Liara also states that she is estranged from her mother and they haven't spoke in many years, and that reveal would quite easily tie in with Liara having to obtain a science education without assistance from Benezia.

I liked her transition from archaeologist to information broker in Mass Effect 2. My only complaint is that the player is never told how an archaeologist put together the nuts and bolts of a private spy ring. In Breaking Bad we are able to accept Walter's White transition from mild-mannered high school science teacher to ruthless drug lord, because we see that transition play out over the course of five seasons and sixty-some episodes. Obviously the writers of a video game don't have the same amount of time or resources as a television series to explore character development, but that doesn't mean Liara's character development couldn't have been handled better. There should have at least been a conversation about it on Illium, and it probably would made a better subject for one or both of her comics than the plots that were actually chosen. Because that transition isn't sold to the player either in game or in outside media like comics, it can seem a bit jarring.

I'd also have had the Shadow Broker intel come from Liara rather than Cerberus. Besides Cerberus' role needing to be toned down a bit in both ME2 and ME3, and the intel coming from Cerberus doesn't make a whole lot of sense if the LotSB DLC is played after the Suicide Mission and Shepard has destroyed the Collector Base. At that point the relationship with Cerberus should be severed.

Finally in ME3 I'd have her role as Shadow Broker play a bigger role in the story rather than being treated as background info that Shepard is uninvolved in.

[DeinonSlayer]

I could go into this in-depth, but it would inevitably involve plot changes. I might have to get back to you.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 05 novembre 2013 - 06:37 .

[Undead Han]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I could go into this in-depth, but it would inevitably involve plot changes.

Nothing wrong with that.

There are quite a few story changes I'd have made, particularly involving the endings.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Han Shot First wrote...


Garrus:

I also thought his Omega batman reveal was kind of silly. Besides discarding Shepard's mentor role in ME1 and whether or not Garrus was advised to return to C-Sec or apply for Spectre training, it didn't make much sense for a character who knew a Reaper invasion was coming to go play vigilante on Omega. Even if Garrus had succeeded and managed to install some form of law-and-order on Omega, what purpose would that serve? Immediately after the Reapers would invade and wipe Omega clean of all life. Instead I think whatever Garrus was doing at the start of ME2 should have been tied to the greater struggle against the Reapers. There should have been some rhyme and reason to his post-ME1 activities.

So much this.

Worse yet, his loyalty mission makes it seem like he learned nothing from the quest you do for him in ME1.

('be back later with my own entry, I have little time right now).

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 05 novembre 2013 - 06:43 .

[Mcfly616]

ME1 Liara > ME2/3 Liara

Let's be honest. Liara is a completely different character in the sequels. Which is disappointing, because (like everything else about the sequels) it changed something that hooked me in. Liara was a naive girl next door type.....then, within a 2 year span she's just a callous galactic badass.


Ummm can anybody say culture shock? Way to keep your characters grounded in reality with natural character progression. Oh wait, they didn't. They went from one extreme to the other and completely threw progression out the window.


While the first game and it's characters kept themselves some what believable, the sequels and its characters took on a super-hero action movie vibe. A drastic detachment from the campy sci fi atmosphere that made me fall in love with the first game.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 05 novembre 2013 - 06:53 .

[Wynterdust]

Garrus: Pretty much agree with what you've put. I would have liked to hear more about his life before C-Sec as well. We only really get to scratch the surface.

Tali: Nothing in particular. The only thing I would changed would have been the decision to render her face rather than have the infamous photoshop. It should have been revealed either in her ME2 romance scene or on Rannoch for sure.

Liara: Again, pretty much as you said. There definitely needed to be more of a gradual change in her character. Although the only way I could have seen that being done is if they did a DLC in a similar style to Leliana's song. Although I imagine there would have been some discontent on her getting 2 DLC's...

TIM- I think really the whole of Cerberus needed a redo for ME3. There should have been a decision at some point in the game to fight the reapers either Cerberus' way or the Alliance's way. Perhaps being able to choose whether to do N7 missions or Cerberus missions during the early parts of the game.
It's pretty odd how you can give TIM exactly what he wants in ME2 and end on decent terms but suddenly become enemies when it comes to ME3. Perhaps more of a gradual transition if you kept fighting Cerberus on N7 missions and making decisions that go against TIM's plans. Although that would probably be making it too complicated.

[Yougotcarved1]

Tali: I didn't think her abilities were that well portrayed in ME1. We were told about her genius level abilities but never really shown them, bar a few conversations with the guy in the SR1 drive core room (forgot his name), and its bad storytelling to simply say "btw this girls a genius". And even in ME2, what did she really do beside get nominated for a "data collection" mission that totally went to hell and apparently didn't give any meaningful data since Haestrom was never mentioned again.

Also I didn't find her progression from awkward naive young girl to co-leader of the entire Migrant Fleet realistic at all. In fact I'd put it on a level with Liara's "Just Add Water!" style jump from girl next door to galactic badass.

Modifié par Yougotcarved1, 05 novembre 2013 - 06:59 .

[Barquiel]

Liara
I'd cut the constant fainting in ME1. Once was fine/understandable (after Therum), but every time was unnecessary...and a little annoying. You already mentioned the asari encyclopedia problem. There really were so many missed opportunities regarding Liara's scenes in ME1...the dialogue after defeating Benezia on Noveria or meeting Shiala on Feros (the only daughter of her mentor standing next to Shepard in combat armour and they don't even acknowledge each other?). I love how the writers developed the character in LotSB and ME3. The old Liara was still there, but under other layers that had to be peeled away. The only things that bothered me about her in ME3 were the romance lock in dialogue (..."more than friends"), and I missed a Liara hug interrupt after Thessia.

Morinth
She isn't exactly my favorite squadmate (I usually save Samara), but I thought that Morinth had huge potential to be a fantastic character...and all this potential was wasted. The suicide mission was probably the first time she's done anything that wasn't explicitly selfish...a hedonistic serial killer helps to save the galaxy (maybe the start of some redemption storyline?). She would have made a great love interest for Shepard, one whose relationship would be entirely emotional, since sex would be fatal. But turning her into "Samara with a different power" was simply lazy. And everything would be better than the named Banshee in ME3. Having Morinth in the monastery would've been easy.

[Iakus]

Ashley:

Would not have had her accusing Shepard of being a traitor on Horizon regardless of their histroy together, and certainly wouldn't have given Shepard such derpworthy responses.

Also, she's supposed to be a bad**** marine. I'd have her dress like one. Both in armor and in uniform

Finally, in ME3 I wouldn't have blown her word budget before she even joins the Normandy crew. I'd have given her some actual conversations. With both Shepard and crew. And contraversial topics too, like aliens and religion and even poetry. Not just all about her family.

[P. Domi]

My humble suggestions to avoid "out of character" behavior and keep a degree of continuity for Ashley Williams through the trilogy.

- First, same complaints about as Garrus posted above applies to Ash. Shepard becomes a mentor to many characters in ME1, or someone they look up to and respect (that is, if the player takes that route). When you met the surviving ME 1 squaddies in ME 2 with an imported save, it always seemed like they all started with a clean slate.

-Shepard died. He didn't defect or go AWOL only to reappear with a group extremists for the lols. If he romanced or was in friendly terms with Ashley/Kaidan the least he can do is to tell them about the Lazarus project. The brief interaction between Ash and Shepard on Horizon is really awkward and very poorly written. The whole ME 2 deals with Shepard's death in a very strange way, almost like if it was a last minute plot decision and there was no time or money to record new dialogues with your old crewmembers.

- Normandy conversations. In ME1, Chris L'Étoile did a great job with Williams' dialogues. They would sometimes branch out in completely different ways depending on your answers. She talked about the universe history (but she never became an 'info-dumper'), survivor's guilt, existentialism, how when cornered against a wall aliens would worry about their own first (which she labels as a very human behavior and foreshadows the how easily Council alliances start to weaken when faced with the reaper invasion), she talks about family, literature and her opinion on the last mission (with views that would really vary depending on your choices).

In ME 3, it's mostly autodialogue and "hi there", "hi there", "hi there" I know she has some decent content on the Citadel, but how about not waiting until Cronos Station to talk about Shepard's death and resurrection? She doesn't even talk about what she did in the 2 years between ME 1 and 2. (Alenko did talk about how he was training biotic Alliance soldiers). Even if you didn't romance her, it would make sense she explained a bit about her work just like Garrus, Tali and Liara do. Ash knew about the Reapers and what was at stake, maybe she and Anderson worked really hard to have the Admiralty take this threat more seriously? We'll never know

- The Williams' curse. Ok, so how did you overcome the curse? I know Captain/Admiral Anderson and Admiral Hackett had something to do with it, but I'd have liked to hear how she rose through the ranks. Wouldn't Ash tell Shepard about her work as an officer? It was a big deal for her in ME 1 and she has made a lot of progress. For example, Garrus explains his rise within the Turian Hierarchy, I can't understand why Williams doesn't do the same.

Modifié par pablodomi, 05 novembre 2013 - 08:00 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

This will require some plot changes to accommodate.

I would have dropped the "Humans are special" plot right from the beginning. Sorry Anderson, I like you, but you were never considered for Spectre. Come on two years after the FCW? Give me a break.

Anderson: I would have given him better dialog. On the initial mission he would have been in training on the Normandy. Still an Alliance Captain. He would have done a mission with the Spectre Saren, but as an Alliance naval officer, not as a Spectre candidate. Anderson would have known better than to introduce visions into the Council hearing.

Shepard: Shepard would have not been such an idiot. Paragon wouldn't have been quite as milquetoast, and renegade wouldn't have been as ass hole. I would throw renegade A.H. Shepard under the bus, and throw Paragon Pansy Shepard under the bus as well. This just means the difference between top right and lower right won't be as great. Shepard would have a brain, be informed and pragmatic. There would be a degree of idealism in the role playing: leaning toward integrating humanity with the galactic community; advancement of humanity over the galactic community. How to do that would be done via quest choices.

Why couldn't Shepard dance, FFS? Why did Shepard drink like a cowboy? Why couldn't Shepard smoke? I guess the latter is not to encourage kids. It's not politically correct.

Also no more "Asari can reproduce with their own race?"; or to Tali, "Your people got what they deserved."

I think that if Shepard mistreats his team too badly they should be able to leave at hub worlds. That's a plot change. Instead we got the "Cult of Shepard." I think the Stargazer Scene at the end was a jab at that. "Tell me another story about The Shepard."

Liara: I would have made her older. About 200, and not naive about the galaxy. Having her be a scientist is fine. I'm getting tired of the young "virginal" characters. We have two of them in ME1. Liara and Tali. We meet Liara as the classic damsel in distress - she's trapped in the bubble waiting to be saved by the knight in shining armor. Ditch that. She was a walking codex in ME1. What am I saying? All the NPCs were. I've come to the conclusion that she's a functioning sociopath since after you and she kill her mother she has absolutely no feelings about it one way or another. One can write off the fact that she's an alien, but that apparently isn't the case. It's like she's on haloperidol but she doesn't shuffle.

Make her not suddenly fall for Shepard because of her link with the prothean beacon. OMGZ you haz beacon magikz! I love you! I must have you and possess you. Granted I like Liara's character, but FFS, Bioware, you could have written this less juvenile.

I really liked her in ME2 and LotSB, but WTF happened to her in ME3?

Tali: Again in ME1 the walking codex. And again another walking codex in ME2. The virginal whom Shepard gets to insult after Shepard owes his/her career to that irrefutable evidence. She is so taken by the awe of Shepard that she defers everything to Shepard. I realize this is a video game, and to have any character take an independent action would make the player feel less heroic. Now that we know why she jumps everytime Shepard comes down to engineering (Tali was downloading schematics of the 1) drive core, 2) thanix weapon, 3) hull armor, etc. to send back to the Migrant Fleet), there should have been no way Tali was going to get exiled during her loyalty mission.

Garrus: I don't mind Garrus so much except for his damned calibrations. I would have liked to have had more from him in ME2 and 3. Garrus is his own person and while Shepard was dead for two years made his own choices. Cleaning up Omega? Not a good one. There is no good on Omega.

Dr. Chakwas: This character was way under utilized in all three games.

Kelly Chambers: face palm. A romance so she'd feed your fish. Should have really been the ship's psychologist and not just the administrative assistant. EDI could have handled that last job.

The SR-2 Daddy Issues: That should have been the name of the ship instead of the Normandy. However, what I find ironic is that seems to be what life is about.... daddy issues. The only ones not affected were Zaeed, Mordin, and Legion. Asari can count both ways. Jack's "daddy" was Cerberus. Even Wrex had daddy issues on the SR-1.

[Iakus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The SR-2 Daddy Issues: That should have been the name of the ship instead of the Normandy. However, what I find ironic is that seems to be what life is about.... daddy issues. The only ones not affected were Zaeed, Mordin, and Legion. Asari can count both ways. Jack's "daddy" was Cerberus. Even Wrex had daddy issues on the SR-1.

From a certain point of view, Mordin was Maelon's "daddy issue"

[Hjklop]

The SR-2 Daddy Issues: That should have been the name of the ship instead of the Normandy. However, what I find ironic is that seems to be what life is about.... daddy issues. The only ones not affected were Zaeed, Mordin, and Legion. Asari can count both ways. Jack's "daddy" was Cerberus. Even Wrex had daddy issues on the SR-1.

You hit the nail on the head there my friend, way too many daddy issues on board the normandy, at least Wrex and Garrus dealt with theirs on  their own I guess.

[Yougotcarved1]

Yeah seriously. I'm usually the first to tell people to calm down on accusations of sexism which are usually overblown, but the daddy issues thing is a MASSIVE reflection on how a lot of video game producers see women. It's honestly ridiculous to watch sometimes, to the extent where anytime I hear a female character say "my...my father" in that slightly emotionally cracking voice I start laughing.

StreetMagic, Jack's story was SO daddy issues. Yes it attempted to deal with loftier issues but it was presented as one big metaphor for daddy issues. Her reactions to everything, and the way Shepard can pull her out of them by simply "showing her she cares", and we get a tear rolling down the cheek, so classic.

Modifié par Yougotcarved1, 05 novembre 2013 - 08:14 .

[SwobyJ]

Daddy issues/Mommy issues/Creator issues/Mentor issues = Mass Effect

[Yougotcarved1]

Man even the Catalyst came about from massive daddy issues regarding the Leviathans. Bloody hell.

[Hjklop]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

Man even the Catalyst came about from massive daddy issues regarding the Leviathans. Bloody hell.

I never thought about it before, but you're right, it was never about organics vs synthetics, or cycles, the true theme of mass effect is daddy issues 

[KaiserShep]

Anderson would've been born in Montreal.

[Iakus]

Yougotcarved1 wrote...

Yeah seriously. I'm usually the first to tell people to calm down on accusations of sexism which are usually overblown, but the daddy issues thing is a MASSIVE reflection on how a lot of video game producers see women. It's honestly ridiculous to watch sometimes, to the extent where anytime I hear a female character say "my...my father" in that slightly emotionally cracking voice I start laughing.

In this case, the daddy issues seem to be pretty equal opportunity.  Everyone had them, male or female.

Now the outfits, otoh, are a pretty sad reflection on how video game producers see women...

[KaiserShep]

iakus wrote...
Now the outfits, otoh, are a pretty sad reflection on how video game producers see women...

The sad reality is, if the armor is designed to be more neutral (which I think would be better), you'll then have some people pissing and moaning about how the armors are not feminine enough, despite the chest plate design for female soldiers in Mass Effect being wholly impractical/inefficient.

[Wulfram]

Liara: I'd keep her focused on Protheans and the Reapers, and play down the information broker stuff - she probably does get involved in intelligence broker stuff between ME1, but it's as part of looking for Reaper stuff and thus coming into conflict with the Shadow Broker. And she doesn't become the Shadow Broker, because that ended up unnecessary for the story.

I'd still have her be pretty shy and awkward, because she is a bit of a loner really. But not a virgin, though I doubt prior relationships would actually come up in the limited word budget we're playing with.

Tali: Doesn't become an admiral in ME3. And she's on her missions in ME2 as a technical specialist, not in command. And her ME2 romance doesn't have the whole thing about needing to have real full on sex despite it being stupidly dangerous - Shepard and Tali hold hands, maybe she touches Shepard's face, and this is a really big deal for her given the absence of physical contact in her life before this. And there are presumably some other things they can get up to while limiting physical contact, but that's for fade to black and implications by Mordin.

Garrus: I don't have a clear idea how to do this, but try to smooth out the aesop amnesia between 1 and 2 for Paragons.

Mordin: Not sure I'd change much about him really, though Genophage could do with being more coherent