1324 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

It's not our fault that you're incompetent, House. Or BioWare's.

You're completely wrong by the way. Since the ship is designed around it's weapons and needs a certain mass, it's going to be a certain size anyway. Hence dreadnoughts getting private cabins for crewman that would be 'wasteful' on smaller ships.

David personally insulting someone, shocking

Modifié par AresKeith, 06 novembre 2013 - 03:25 .

[dreamgazer]

The SR1 was fine, it simply had a stupid CIC which even the Alliance thinks it's stupid.

Could have used a bar and a place to play cards, to be honest.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Mr.House wrote...
What happens if there was a crew membert here?  See? The fact that the player can think that and in fact can question many other design choices along with it's size is not logical at all. There should not even be a bar in the first place, if yo uwant booze go on shoreleave. Adding pointless rooms that just maket he hsip biiger, heaiver and have too many rooms along with that very bright light makes me just facepalm.

Also don't get me started on the CIC, though the CIC design issue has been present since ME so that's not a Sr2 issue.

Cerberus was never really concerned with crew saftey from my impression, even Shepard can mention this when discossing venting the run Grunt's tank is in,  the crew being expendable. Remember the shoddy design they had for venting plasma into engineering? Really the only thing I found questionable was the armory on the CIC deck and Mordin's science lab when there was already a medbay.

They specifically point out why the CIC has whacky design in ME1 as well.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 06 novembre 2013 - 03:26 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

It's not our fault that you're incompetent, House. Or BioWare's.

You're completely wrong by the way. Since the ship is designed around it's weapons and needs a certain mass, it's going to be a certain size anyway. Hence dreadnoughts getting private cabins for crewman that would be 'wasteful' on smaller ships.

It's actually Cerberus that comes off as stupid based on some of these designs but I'm inclinded to believe that's by the nature of their "out of the box" thinking.

[Mr.House]

Greylycantrope wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It's not our fault that you're incompetent, House. Or BioWare's.

You're completely wrong by the way. Since the ship is designed around it's weapons and needs a certain mass, it's going to be a certain size anyway. Hence dreadnoughts getting private cabins for crewman that would be 'wasteful' on smaller ships.

It's actually Cerberus that comes off as stupid based on some of these designs but I'm inclinded to believe that's by the nature of their "out of the box" thinking.

Indeed.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mr.House wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

"The windows have ablative armor that covers them, and the room is depressurized."

Why would oyu put a bar in a place that has to be depressurized when combat is entered. It's rule of cool trumping logic. You can like the new Normandy all you want, but don't say it's logical. It's not even close. There is many questionable deisgns along with being too big for a frigate.

I doubt anyone would actually stay in the rec room when battle stations were called, honestly, it's really not illogical at all.

What happens if there was a crew membert here?

Then he's an idiot for ignoring the General Quarters alarm when the ship engages in battle.

See? The fact that the player can think that and in fact can question many other design choices along with it's size is not logical at all.

I don't 'see' anything. I question your questioning of the design choices of the ship, especially since you aren't (to the best of my knowledge) an engineer or architect of shipborne structure, or an expert at such.

There should not even be a bar in the first place, if yo uwant booze go on shoreleave.

Modern military warships have, as I said, different kinds of 'pointless' recreational facilities. The old Essex-class carrier of WWII had a bowling alley. As for shore leave, that's not always going to happen, or be predictable when it happens. You can't just 'go' on leave.

Adding pointless rooms that just maket he hsip biiger, heaiver and have too many rooms along with that very bright light makes me just facepalm.

Not that much bigger. And not really all that pointless either. There is a point to recreation. A very valuable point to it. As I said, morale. Morale keeps the spirit high and staves off boredom and loneliness. High spirit keeps the crew motivated. Motivated crews perform immeasurably better and keep efficiency high. High performance and high efficiency means higher mission success rating. Higher mission success rating means everyone is happy.

Also don't get me started on the CIC, though the CIC design issue has been present since ME so that's not a Sr2 issue.

I think it works fairly well. They do mention this in ME1, with the CIC being a Turian idea and all. And, to them and their doctrine, it makes sense. I see the logic to it.

[Zazzerka]

I'd have made her mortal so everyone would shut the **** up about it.

Modifié par BioWareMod05, 06 novembre 2013 - 03:44 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

dreamgazer wrote...

The SR1 was fine, it simply had a stupid CIC which even the Alliance thinks it's stupid.

Could have used a bar and a place to play cards, to be honest.

Or to buy cheap **** and slurpee's 

[dreamgazer]

Zazzerka wrote...

I'd have made her mortal so everyone would shut the **** up about it.

Who, the Normandy? 

Modifié par BioWareMod05, 06 novembre 2013 - 03:44 .

[dreamgazer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The SR1 was fine, it simply had a stupid CIC which even the Alliance thinks it's stupid.

Could have used a bar and a place to play cards, to be honest.

Or to buy cheap **** and slurpee's 

I have both Marine and Navy buddies.  I totally get it. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I suspect this thread has devolved into something else, but to give my thoughts before trecking through a dozen pages...


I think the single biggest thing I would have done would have been to largely nix reoccurring companions. Pretty much every character arc that went past its initial game went from bizarre to despised to nowhere at all. Character development arcs became schizophrenic as they bounced around or forgot what they already established, and especially in ME3 a number of the companions were shoehorned into not exactly credible places just to be present.

A good companion cameo is more than just a moment of badass and some 'just like old times' lines, complete with buddy-buddy moments. Wrex in ME3 is an awesome role as the Krogan leader... if you don't pay attention to Wrex's philosophy in ME2. Thane was in a great position... unless you listen to the Thanemancers and ask their opinion. And as for Admiral Tali, 'Generals salute him' Garrus, or Shadow Broker Liara?

Well, I'll just say that it wasn't a natural evolution from where they were in ME1. Granted, ME1 Tali was a chickenleg codex, but I miss the Garrus who had a character arc about maturing and getting out from under Shepherd's wing.


Forcing companions into major roles might have been popular, but I don't think it was good writing. I'd have a much stronger of Tali's character arc in ME2, for example, if it had been 'she's on the team for politics' rather than trying to retroactively justify her as a 'best of the best' in the galaxy... while providing little justification for that. Let her character arc be realizing that she isn't as good as everyone else wants her to be... but that she can still be good enough.


(My thoughts on Shepherd as the protagonist on the trilogy are long established. I see little benefit and more weaknesses from the insistence on him/her.)


Now, for a short list per game?

ME1: A good case of character arcs that got dropped when characters were shoehorned into later games. The primary non-offenders are Wrex and Tali, for different reasons.
Ash/Kaiden- I would have made it so that you didn't have to be the opposite gender to Paragonize Ash/Renegade-ize Kaiden. And I wish they could have kept those alignments- the VS got a lot more bland, and lost a crux of their ME1 character arc, when the ME1 development got dropped.

Garrus- Why did ME1 Garrus have to die? His characterization arc, one of the strongest in the game (not least because you didn't have to be a potential love interest to trigger it), was simple, compelling, and had a clear endstate. Garrus learns patience and responsibility and goes back to C-SEC, or Garrus affirms his desire to do good overruling the bureaucracy and goes back for Spectre. And then... poof. It's all thrown away, rather than utilized, to throw him back under Shepherd. And then, after becoming a Big Person and having such responsibility that generals salute him, come ME3 the serial quitter... quits again, and not a single Turian tries to stop him or expresses regret that he's leaving. There was an intent with that planet, and it rather backfired for me.

Liara- Never needed to become the Shadow Broker or try a Dark and Edgy route. All her relevance to the core plot, and then some, could have been kept through her established history as a Prothean/Reaper Cycle archeological expert.

Wrex- already mentioned, but ME2!Wrex had a compelling governmental philosophy for the Krogan. ME3!Wrex ditched that to rely more on ME1.

Tali- could have had actual characterization. Personally I think 'is treated special because of her political status, but isn't suited for the responsibility (yet)' would make a better character arc than what they tried to make ME2 about, and would actually lead into Admiral Tali, but whatever was done should have started in ME1.


ME2- well, the cast was way too large in my view, precluding much interaction and exaggerating the lack of relevance to the main plot. Pretty much everyone could have used some tie-in to the Collector threat... if you didn't chop the cast as a whole. You could probably combine almost half the companions into composite characters, and get stronger characters as a result- Jack/Miranda, the stockholm syndrome victim/advocate of Cerberus, Jacob/Zaeed an old badass who's seen all the galaxy has to offer and yet still has a core of morality under a suit of sour armor, and even Samara/Morinth (I'll let you imagine the possibilities of an AY trying to hide and live as a Justicar).

There are really too many things I would twist about the companions, so I'll bring some points about cameo encounters from ME1.

Lorik, the Turian from Noveria who you could get a garage pass from, would have been an excellent replacement/substitue for what's-her-name if you didn't side with her. His presence on Illium would be easy to justify (business), his role as a quest giver similar (you helped me last time, perhaps you'd like to again), and in general he is an unkillable substitute for what's-her-name.

Shiala, from Feros. Rather than have a nameless substitute if she wasn't around, use the unkillable Sarah from the same encounter. Sarah was the Exo-Geni employee you found who provided data on the Thorian. In addition to being unkillable herself, she could have a similar basis for wanting to help the colonists (guilt), has a basis for being the agent on Illium (experience with corporate red tape), and otherwise has as much of a reason for a hero-crush on Shepherd as Shiala.

The Rachni Ambassador could have been replaced with a Noveria executive or Krogan who had heard about the Rachni destruction. Rather than no encounter at all, you could have someone who knows thank you for destroying the Rachni and off a little thank-you gift (and immediate, but smaller, reward than Rachni assets come ME3).

Fist. I think it would have been hilarious if, assuming you killed Fist, if you sat down at Afterlife his son tried to confront you for revenge. It'd be all like 'Hello, my name is Inigo Fist. You killed my father. Prepare to die-' bam. Cue Shepherd's teammate, lowering gun, going 'who was that clown?'

Oh, also, the replacement Council could have shown up. And Udina didn't need to be degraded to needless jerk, compared to ME1 where he was an ass but an ass who would agree with you.


ME3- well, I've written my own interpretations of the game in my Story Corner, see my signature block. Key points?

-EDI didn't need to be a sex bot to have a character arc... though I would have laughed had 'she' been put inside a male chasis and given Joker quite an identity crisis.
-The Quarian Admiralty board didn't need to be reduced to idiots, and the Geth so one-sidedly whitewashed.
-Someone could have challenged Wrex on how he intended to hold the Krogan together peacefully if the genophage was cured.
-TIM doesn't need to be indoctrinated to be an antagonist. He doesn't even need the whole 'Control' motivation, which wasn't really developed enough to be warranted in my view. Cerberus could just as well have been playing the long game with a post-Reaper perspective, trying to prevent the rise of any new superpowers (genophaged Krogan) and helping the Reapers to level the opposition while banking on the Crucible gambit.
-Kai Leng is lame, and could just as well be replaced with an exceptional Cerberus mook. (Fun thought- imagine it was a super-Centurian, and when you finally beat them you take off the mask to reveal an opposite Male/FemShep.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Greylycantrope wrote...
It's actually Cerberus that comes off as stupid based on some of these designs but I'm inclinded to believe that's by the nature of their "out of the box" thinking.

I admit, I don't see much stupidity for any of the designs by Cerberus. Or even the alliance for that matter. The SR-1 seems to be the stripped down progenitor to the SR-2

[Mr.House]

dreamgazer wrote...

Zazzerka wrote...

I'd have made her mortal so everyone would shut the **** up about it.

Who, the Normandy? 

Normandy already died.

Modifié par BioWareMod05, 06 novembre 2013 - 03:45 .

[Zazzerka]

StreetMagic wrote...

Hey, why can you say **** and I can't?

Or can I?

It's a secret.

It gets you moddu'd anyway, so it isn't really worth it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
What happens if there was a crew membert here?  See? The fact that the player can think that and in fact can question many other design choices along with it's size is not logical at all. There should not even be a bar in the first place, if yo uwant booze go on shoreleave. Adding pointless rooms that just maket he hsip biiger, heaiver and have too many rooms along with that very bright light makes me just facepalm.

Also don't get me started on the CIC, though the CIC design issue has been present since ME so that's not a Sr2 issue.

Cerberus was never really concerned with crew saftey from my impression, even Shepard can mention this when discossing venting the run Grunt's tank is in,  the crew being expendable. Remember the shoddy design they had for venting plasma into engineering? Really the only thing I found questionable was the armory on the CIC deck and Mordin's science lab when there was already a medbay.

They specifically point out why the CIC has whacky design in ME1 as well.

I addressed the issue of the armory already. As for the plasma venting issue, it seemed to be more of an issue that would only occur in the event of a catastrophic system failure at point when the Normandy would already be lost for the most part. And the tech lab and med lab separation? I see logic in it. One is for medical issues, the other is for non-medical scientific research. Two doctors, one a medical doctor focusing on medical issues, the other a savant scientist with a near omniscient scientific background in many, many fields to work on non-medical related issues. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

From an immersive point of view I think it fits even with the questionable designs. The first Normandy was a prototype of two distinct styles of engineering, some design flaws would be inherent in it's inital conception. The SR-2 was designed with the idea of improving on the original, it's size was meant to give it more adaptability in ways it could be improved. In other words you had enough room to actually mount those thanix guns, however this also means Cerberus had room to play around and outfit the ship for the specific mission it was assigned for which lead to some interesting design choices like a science lab. The rest can be chucked up to them trying new engineering designes and not caring about the well being of the crew so much as the well being of the ship which was the project. That's not that far out of line from Cerberus's mind frame, so anyone who questions their other experiments is welcome to question the Normandy design, but to me that doesn't really take away from the game itself.

@massive, concerning the armory being closest to the crew, if that's the case I would have placed it on the Crew Deck not the CIC.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 06 novembre 2013 - 03:48 .

[Mr.House]

Greylycantrope wrote...

From an immersive point of view I think it fits even with the questionable designs. The first Normandy was a prototype of two distinct styles of engineering, some design flaws would be inherent in it's inital conception. The SR-2 was designed with the idea of improving on the original, it's size was meant to give it more adaptability in ways it could be improved. In other words you had enough room to actually mount those thanix guns, however this also means Cerberus had room to play around and outfit the ship for the specific mission it was assigned for which lead to some interesting design choices like a science lab. The rest can be chucked up to them trying new engineering designes and not caring about the well being of the crew so much as the well being of the ship which was the project. That's not that far out of line from Cerberus's mind frame, so anyone who questions their other experiments is welcome to question the Normandy design, but to me that doesn't really take away from the game itself.

The only thing Sr2 improved was weapons.

[Jorji Costava]

On ship design and realism:

My attitude here is: meh. I think that the demand for an air-tight, in-universe explanation of every little detail in the universe can easily be taken too far. My favorite example of this (which I've used here before) is Das Boot. It's generally regarded as one of the most realistic war movies ever made, but one guy who didn't think so was Lothar-Günther Buchheim, the journalist on whose book the film was based.

In one scene, several bolts in the U-boats interior start to come loose as the U-boat descends well below recommended depth. Buchheim noted that if even one bolt came loose, the danger of the ship being crushed by water pressure would have been imminent. But what I think director Wolfgang Peterson was doing here was making concessions to visual storytelling. If you simply have a character say, "Oh no, one of the bolts is starting to come loose a little bit; we're really screwed now!", that's just not great storytelling; it's telling rather than showing. The demand for complete realism would have simply resulted in a more boring way of telling the story.

The moral of the story is that total consistency and realism isn't the be-all end-all of narrative. It's one consideration that needs to be balanced against others, and when realism and other storytelling demands conflict, I'd argue that sometimes (many times, more likely), it's justifiable to sacrifice realism rather than those other considerations. In light of all this, it's rather difficult for me to care why there's a bar in the Normandy (my answer: Because it's a mood appropriate setting in which to stage certain conversations, particularly when the characters are unwinding after a difficult mission, etc.), let alone why that bar is in the precise location it is.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I have the solution. Throw the entire ME1 and ME2 and ME3 teams out the airlock (except for the DLC characters). Now I'll recruit Aria, Bray, Kal'Reegar, Zaeed, Kasumi, Javik, and now let's kick some ass.

Oh and the SR1 didn't even have a place for the crew to take a crap. What did they do? Take turns in the airlock?

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 06 novembre 2013 - 03:51 .

[AresKeith]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I have the solution. Throw the entire ME1 and ME2 and ME3 teams out the airlock (except for the DLC characters). Now I'll recruit Aria, Bray, Kal'Reegar, Zaeed, Kasumi, Javik, and now let's kick some ass.

You're missing Tela Vasir

[Xilizhra]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I have the solution. Throw the entire ME1 and ME2 and ME3 teams out the airlock (except for the DLC characters). Now I'll recruit Aria, Bray, Kal'Reegar, Zaeed, Kasumi, Javik, and now let's kick some ass.

Javik? Ick.