David7204 wrote...
Why would it make no sense?
This might be an interesting plot if ME1 didn't have a rather time-sensitive story (hunting down Saren). Unfortunately, there's really not enough time for this to be done (it'd take years).David7204 wrote...
That's not the point. No, it doesn't immediately turn someone competent. But yes, it does justify putting the time in to build that competence and experience.
Yep.Han Shot First wrote...
Courage isn't enough to participate in a military mission. The realities of modern warfare are far too complex. Its no longer as simple as thrusting a musket in someone's hand and giving them an 'off you go lad.' Presumably it would be even more complex in the era Mass Effect is set in. No amount of courage would make Liara capable of filling in on an infantry fire team with any degree of competency. Simply put, there is no substitute for training.
I'm able to suspend disbelief with her inclusion, but I do wish the devs had leaned a little more towards hard Sci Fi than fantasy with her inclusion, and justified it with some prior military service.
Modifié par General TSAR, 08 novembre 2013 - 01:46 .
Modifié par David7204, 08 novembre 2013 - 01:52 .
Han Shot First wrote...
Courage isn't enough to participate in a military mission. The realities of modern warfare are far too complex. Its no longer as simple as thrusting a musket in someone's hand and giving them an 'off you go lad.' Presumably it would be even more complex in the era Mass Effect is set in. No amount of courage would make Liara capable of filling in on an infantry fire team with any degree of competency. Simply put, there is no substitute for training.
I'm able to suspend disbelief with her inclusion, but I do wish the devs had leaned a little more towards hard Sci Fi than fantasy with her inclusion, and justified it with some prior military service.
This may well be true for academic matters where your goal is "pretty solid" in several tricky subjects, but I don't think it's a direct analogue to special forces missions (repeated ones) where not being among the best ever will get you killed in short order. I also don't really know why greater inexperience on her part would help anything in the story; you don't have to be unskilled to be courageous.David7204 wrote...
I'm not a soldier. I've never been in the military. I can't say with any certainty how much training combat requires.
However, I am a physics student with a pretty solid background in chemistry, math, computer science, and economics. I've seen all the stigmas of how hard such classes supposedly are for years. I've been told by plenty of people that what I do is something they could never handle.
And I can say with certainty that what I've learned so far is nowhere close to as hard to learn as most people seem to think.
With a good teacher, I really have troubling imaging a reasonable smart person taking more than a couple of months to learn what I've gotten to so far.
Assessment: I confess I don't know what many of these are, but I think most of her maneuvers are biotics-based. She's the one squadmate who has no weapon skills, so I imagine she can shoot acceptably well, but that's about it. I can picture her, however, being skilled enough in both day and night combat, first aid is vastly easier when everyone has medigel, and as for explodey things... impossible to say, we don't see them used in ME1 except for grenades. I will, however, definitely say that she's up on combat armor.Liara has 'defended' herself once or twice. Sooooo....she knows some
light displays? Commando moves? CQB and Battle Shooting? Can she groub
sub-75 mil at 100 metres? Get a 215 on a standard LF6 test? Is she
qualified in live fire attacks by day and night? Field ops? Combat First
Aid? Is she proficient on incendiaries, explosives and pyrotechnics?
Basic signals and ra-tel procedure? Has she ever seen combat armour
before, let alone worn it?
Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 novembre 2013 - 01:55 .
David7204 wrote...
I'm not a soldier. I've never been in the military. I can't say with any certainty how much training combat requires.
However, I am a physics student with a pretty solid background in chemistry, math, computer science, and economics. I've seen all the stigmas of how hard such classes supposedly are for years. I've been told by plenty of people that what I do is something they could never handle.
And I can say with certainty that what I've learned so far is nowhere close to as hard to learn as most people seem to think.
With a good teacher, I really have troubling imaging a reasonable smart person taking more than a couple of months to learn what I've gotten to so far. And that's not even with one-on-one training.
Take that for what you will. I don't buy an argument that becoming a competent soldier takes 'years' or anything remotely close to it.
..........David7204 wrote...
I'm not a soldier. I've never been in the military. I can't say with any certainty how much training combat requires.
However, I am a physics student with a pretty solid background in chemistry, math, computer science, and economics. I've seen all the stigmas of how hard such classes supposedly are for years. I've been told by plenty of people that what I do is something they could never handle.
And I can say with certainty that what I've learned so far is nowhere close to as hard to learn as most people seem to think.
With a good teacher, I really have troubling imaging a reasonable smart person taking more than a couple of months to learn what I've gotten to so far. And that's not even with one-on-one training.
Take that for what you will. I don't buy an argument that becoming a competent soldier takes 'years' or anything remotely close to it.
Modifié par Zazzerka, 08 novembre 2013 - 02:00 .
she apparently received the best combat training in the Migrant Fleet, take that as you will.Made Nightwing wrote...
Tali....eh, I'll suspend disbelief and allow that she is proficient enough with her drills, and cunning enough to survive open and close quarters warfare.
Modifié par General TSAR, 08 novembre 2013 - 02:01 .
Apparently, asari standard biotics training takes care of most of the biotic side of this. And she never uses a rifle anyway; do they have heavy pistol/SMG drills, or are those fundamentally easier to use?Made Nightwing wrote...
David7204 wrote...
I'm not a soldier. I've never been in the military. I can't say with any certainty how much training combat requires.
However, I am a physics student with a pretty solid background in chemistry, math, computer science, and economics. I've seen all the stigmas of how hard such classes supposedly are for years. I've been told by plenty of people that what I do is something they could never handle.
And I can say with certainty that what I've learned so far is nowhere close to as hard to learn as most people seem to think.
With a good teacher, I really have troubling imaging a reasonable smart person taking more than a couple of months to learn what I've gotten to so far. And that's not even with one-on-one training.
Take that for what you will. I don't buy an argument that becoming a competent soldier takes 'years' or anything remotely close to it.
No. No. No. NO. NO!
I didn't get why exactly why so many people found you insufferable, but let me just state that you are 110% WRONG on this.
In twelve weeks (sixteen in some countries) a civilian is taken and moulded into something that roughly resembles a soldier. Some of these things that resemble soldiers are then moved on to the School of Infantry, where across another few months they are slowly moulded into something that resembles a rifleman. They are then moved to their battalion, and will spend months upon months learning the skills that no one writes down, the tricks and tips of the trade that come with hours upon hours of practice.
And then, after three-four years of learning drills and absorbing information until it is as natural to you as breathing, these riflemen can apply for special operations. Where maybe three out of a hundred will pass selection. Maybe.
It takes three hundred perfect repetitions just to work the reload drill into muscle memory, let alone all the dozens of other skills that need to be perfected. NEVER make a blanket assumption like that in front of an actual operator in real life, man. You will either get laughed at, decked, or both.
General TSAR wrote...
she apparently received the best combat training in the Migrant Fleet, take that as you will.Made Nightwing wrote...
Tali....eh, I'll suspend disbelief and allow that she is proficient enough with her drills, and cunning enough to survive open and close quarters warfare.
Somehow I don't think video game explanations quite cover itXilizhra wrote...
Apparently, asari standard biotics training takes care of most of the biotic side of this. And she never uses a rifle anyway; do they have heavy pistol/SMG drills, or are those fundamentally easier to use?Made Nightwing wrote...
David7204 wrote...
I'm not a soldier. I've never been in the military. I can't say with any certainty how much training combat requires.
However, I am a physics student with a pretty solid background in chemistry, math, computer science, and economics. I've seen all the stigmas of how hard such classes supposedly are for years. I've been told by plenty of people that what I do is something they could never handle.
And I can say with certainty that what I've learned so far is nowhere close to as hard to learn as most people seem to think.
With a good teacher, I really have troubling imaging a reasonable smart person taking more than a couple of months to learn what I've gotten to so far. And that's not even with one-on-one training.
Take that for what you will. I don't buy an argument that becoming a competent soldier takes 'years' or anything remotely close to it.
No. No. No. NO. NO!
I didn't get why exactly why so many people found you insufferable, but let me just state that you are 110% WRONG on this.
In twelve weeks (sixteen in some countries) a civilian is taken and moulded into something that roughly resembles a soldier. Some of these things that resemble soldiers are then moved on to the School of Infantry, where across another few months they are slowly moulded into something that resembles a rifleman. They are then moved to their battalion, and will spend months upon months learning the skills that no one writes down, the tricks and tips of the trade that come with hours upon hours of practice.
And then, after three-four years of learning drills and absorbing information until it is as natural to you as breathing, these riflemen can apply for special operations. Where maybe three out of a hundred will pass selection. Maybe.
It takes three hundred perfect repetitions just to work the reload drill into muscle memory, let alone all the dozens of other skills that need to be perfected. NEVER make a blanket assumption like that in front of an actual operator in real life, man. You will either get laughed at, decked, or both.
ME1 combat ops are exclusively urban, except when you're riding in the Mako. In ME2, she shows up in the colony of Freedom's Progress and then the ruined city on Haestrom, so I don't think plausibility is ever damaged, really.Which is why I'll accept her proficiency in urban ops, ship drills, vehicle maintenance, explosives and a whole heap of other nifty skills. But considering all the other types of warfare (such as jungle, arctic, etc) that the Migrant Fleet wouldn't have had the resources to train her on...well, you get my point.
There is no asari standard biotics training. Only soldiers have to go through the training, and Liara is no soldier. And no, there is no gun that is fundamentally easier to use. They all require training to actually use, and that has nothing to do with even half of the combat aspect of any career.Xilizhra wrote...
Apparently, asari standard biotics training takes care of most of the biotic side of this. And she never uses a rifle anyway; do they have heavy pistol/SMG drills, or are those fundamentally easier to use?Made Nightwing wrote...
David7204 wrote...
I'm not a soldier. I've never been in the military. I can't say with any certainty how much training combat requires.
However, I am a physics student with a pretty solid background in chemistry, math, computer science, and economics. I've seen all the stigmas of how hard such classes supposedly are for years. I've been told by plenty of people that what I do is something they could never handle.
And I can say with certainty that what I've learned so far is nowhere close to as hard to learn as most people seem to think.
With a good teacher, I really have troubling imaging a reasonable smart person taking more than a couple of months to learn what I've gotten to so far. And that's not even with one-on-one training.
Take that for what you will. I don't buy an argument that becoming a competent soldier takes 'years' or anything remotely close to it.
No. No. No. NO. NO!
I didn't get why exactly why so many people found you insufferable, but let me just state that you are 110% WRONG on this.
In twelve weeks (sixteen in some countries) a civilian is taken and moulded into something that roughly resembles a soldier. Some of these things that resemble soldiers are then moved on to the School of Infantry, where across another few months they are slowly moulded into something that resembles a rifleman. They are then moved to their battalion, and will spend months upon months learning the skills that no one writes down, the tricks and tips of the trade that come with hours upon hours of practice.
And then, after three-four years of learning drills and absorbing information until it is as natural to you as breathing, these riflemen can apply for special operations. Where maybe three out of a hundred will pass selection. Maybe.
It takes three hundred perfect repetitions just to work the reload drill into muscle memory, let alone all the dozens of other skills that need to be perfected. NEVER make a blanket assumption like that in front of an actual operator in real life, man. You will either get laughed at, decked, or both.
Xilizhra wrote...
ME1 combat ops are exclusively urban, except when you're riding in the Mako. In ME2, she shows up in the colony of Freedom's Progress and then the ruined city on Haestrom, so I don't think plausibility is ever damaged, really.Which is why I'll accept her proficiency in urban ops, ship drills, vehicle maintenance, explosives and a whole heap of other nifty skills. But considering all the other types of warfare (such as jungle, arctic, etc) that the Migrant Fleet wouldn't have had the resources to train her on...well, you get my point.
David7204 wrote...
I'm not a soldier. I've never been in the military. I can't say with any certainty how much training combat requires.
However, I am a physics student with a pretty solid background in chemistry, math, computer science, and economics. I've seen all the stigmas of how hard such classes supposedly are for years. I've been told by plenty of people that what I do is something they could never handle.
And I can say with certainty that what I've learned so far is nowhere close to as hard to learn as most people seem to think.
With a good teacher, I really have troubling imaging a reasonable smart person taking more than a couple of months to learn what I've gotten to so far. And that's not even with one-on-one training.
Take that for what you will. I don't buy an argument that becoming a competent soldier takes 'years' or anything remotely close to it.
Modifié par Yougotcarved1, 08 novembre 2013 - 02:18 .
Which poses the question: what's the difference in their niche in the ME universe? Guns like the Locust can definitely prove that SMGs don't have to be solely about shortish-ranged burst fire, at least (well, back before ME3 when the Locust didn't suck).That's actually the thing, though. Pistols and SMGs are lighter than a rifle, sure, but they're harder to be accurate with, and they're more of a niche thing. Vehicle operators, Cav guys, specialists, they'll sometimes carry an SMG, but most guys prefer a short barrelled carbine. I've gotten my quals on the MP5, but I'll likely never see one again for the rest of my career (at least if I stay in the Reserves). Pistols? I've shot them many times, but they're not considered to be a necessary bit of kit. The only people I've seen with them in the field are officers or gunners who need a close weapon for emergencies.
I think that pistols are among the more accurate weapons in ME (after sniper rifles, of course), so weapon configurations might be somewhat different.For a specialist like Liara, who needs a light weapon? I'd issue her a nice, light, short barrelled assault rifle. Still plenty of accuracy and firepower, but it won't weigh her down too much. Ditto with Tali over a cumbersome shotgun (though the range is much better in real life).
ME3. Liara expresses some surprise at Grissom Academy being a thing, as every asari goes through something like that as part of their schooling.There is no asari standard biotics training. Only soldiers have to go through the training, and Liara is no soldier.
The outdoor arctic part of the mission is all inside the Mako, isn't it?Noveria is Arctic, but yes, I take your point. But hey, I'm actually
impressed by Tali. Instinctive urban shooting is one of the more
difficult skills to master.
Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 novembre 2013 - 02:16 .
Retour en haut