1324 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

It seems more likely that whatever records they had would logically lead one studying them to come to that conclusion, taken without context. And everything would be fragmentary by nature, as all anyone would know of the Protheans are whatever scraps the Reapers didn't obliterate.

So what?  They were still horribly off about the nature of the Prothean Empire on a laughable scale.

It seems to me that the researchers wanted to see similarities between the asari and protheans and so thats what they found.

[Steelcan]

KaiserShep wrote...

What would Shepard do regarding finding another prothean expert anyway? Post fliers on the Citadel?

HELP WANTED

Asari prothean expert needed to serve aboard advanced experimental warship. Must work well with turian, krogan and quarian crew members. Ability to decipher mental imagery essential. Proficiency in biotics a plus. Contact at: C.Shepard@Normandy.sa.

>I would put up posters for a filthy asari:sick:

got enough xenos already

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I have a feeling the writers forgot about the mass relay shutdown effect, because some of Javik's lines, like the ones about sacrificing specific planets so others could survive, would make no sense in an environment without mass relays and their comm buoys.

Itd just take longer to get between systems, javik couldn't have been galivant around the galaxy like Shepard hough

You also couldn't talk to other systems except by courier ship.

I think that it's either A. a retcon, B. Vigil's memories being scrambled, or C. Javik having a badly garbled viewpoint of all Prothean activity before his time.

given ME3's complete disregard for prior canon I'm going with A

So with that, we can conclude that the mass relays were not shut down. Hence, the probable cause for their swift defeat leading to a long mopping-up was the extremely top-down nature of their government leading to a long initial paralysis when the Citadel fell, in addition to their total lack of adaptability due to their habit of forcing every species to conform to their own paradigms (this is the one that Javik says outright). Ironically, for a race that worshiped evolution, they completely forgot the most important thing about it: there is no true pinnacle, and adaptability is a very frequent lifesaver.

I think "C" is more likely. I don't have the DLC, but it baffles me to no end that the protheans send a soldier...and not a scholar, scientist, historian or any other knowledgable person who knows something about the crucible. Did they really think one soldier would make a difference?

'Send'? I'm not sure I'd call 'your last bunker was being overrun, extremely limited survivors, mechanical failures leave final kill-off order to a VI' as a sending.

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It seems more likely that whatever records they had would logically lead one studying them to come to that conclusion, taken without context. And everything would be fragmentary by nature, as all anyone would know of the Protheans are whatever scraps the Reapers didn't obliterate.

So what?  They were still horribly off about the nature of the Prothean Empire on a laughable scale.

It seems to me that the researchers wanted to see similarities between the asari and protheans and so thats what they found.

Perhaps, but keep in mind that would be all researchers across all species looking for asari/Prothean similiarities.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It seems more likely that whatever records they had would logically lead one studying them to come to that conclusion, taken without context. And everything would be fragmentary by nature, as all anyone would know of the Protheans are whatever scraps the Reapers didn't obliterate.

So what?  They were still horribly off about the nature of the Prothean Empire on a laughable scale.

It seems to me that the researchers wanted to see similarities between the asari and protheans and so thats what they found.

Perhaps, but keep in mind that would be all researchers across all species looking for asari/Prothean similiarities.

Well the asari probably led the prothean research (perhaps looking for more beacons to get their hands on) even if only because they were the first to really get going and seemed to have a much stronger connection to the protheans.

All subsequent research would be informed by this initial bias.

[KaiserShep]

Steelcan wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

What would Shepard do regarding finding another prothean expert anyway? Post fliers on the Citadel?

HELP WANTED

Asari prothean expert needed to serve aboard advanced experimental warship. Must work well with turian, krogan and quarian crew members. Ability to decipher mental imagery essential. Proficiency in biotics a plus. Contact at: C.Shepard@Normandy.sa.

>I would put up posters for a filthy asari:sick:

got enough xenos already

Welp, them's the breaks. The only replacement for Liara is another asari who also happens to be a prothean researcher, since you need that mind reading mojo in the same package.

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It seems more likely that whatever records they had would logically lead one studying them to come to that conclusion, taken without context. And everything would be fragmentary by nature, as all anyone would know of the Protheans are whatever scraps the Reapers didn't obliterate.

So what?  They were still horribly off about the nature of the Prothean Empire on a laughable scale.

It seems to me that the researchers wanted to see similarities between the asari and protheans and so thats what they found.

Perhaps, but keep in mind that would be all researchers across all species looking for asari/Prothean similiarities.

Well the asari probably led the prothean research (perhaps looking for more beacons to get their hands on) even if only because they were the first to really get going and seemed to have a much stronger connection to the protheans.

All subsequent research would be informed by this initial bias.

In short, baseless speculation because you don't like the asari, in addition to greater willful misunderstanding of the beacon incident. I think that's all I need.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 08 novembre 2013 - 06:15 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Xilizhra wrote...

In short, baseless speculation because you don't like the asari,

As opposed to your usual baseless speculation because you love your race of magical space lesbians?

[Steelcan]

I laugh everytime you tell me that I am willfully misunderstanding. You are the one who thinks the beacons that Shepard was hanging over were part of the temple.

But its also something that you see rather commonly in history. People have an ideal that look up to and connect ancient civilizations to it. Especially abundant concerning the Hellenistic world or. Pharonic Egypt

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It seems more likely that whatever records they had would logically lead one studying them to come to that conclusion, taken without context. And everything would be fragmentary by nature, as all anyone would know of the Protheans are whatever scraps the Reapers didn't obliterate.

So what?  They were still horribly off about the nature of the Prothean Empire on a laughable scale.

It seems to me that the researchers wanted to see similarities between the asari and protheans and so thats what they found.

Perhaps, but keep in mind that would be all researchers across all species looking for asari/Prothean similiarities.

Well the asari probably led the prothean research (perhaps looking for more beacons to get their hands on) even if only because they were the first to really get going and seemed to have a much stronger connection to the protheans.

All subsequent research would be informed by this initial bias.

In short, baseless speculation because you don't like the asari, in addition to greater willful misunderstanding of the beacon incident. I think that's all I need.

You equal oppoiste, similar to you in all described ways except for the addition of a 'n't'?

[dreamgazer]

All your baseless speculation are belong to us.

Seriously, I need a chart or something to indicate what's admissible and not.

[grey_wind]

If nothing else, I'd modify the writing so that the vast majority of characters don't have their character development offscreen in between games. It's lazy, and often comes across as contrived.

Compare Jack at the end of ME2 to Jack at the start of ME3. That should have been the endpoint of her character arc, and ME3 should have chronicled the choices she made and decisions she faced that led to her choosing to teach biotics at Grissom.

[Han Shot First]

One of the things all of the great minds in human history have had in common is being wrong from time to time. No one is infallible, and that was also true for Aristotle, Copernicus, Galileo, Newtown and Einstein. Even today the accumulated knowledge of all of the most brilliant physicists are insufficient to explain what is going on inside of a black hole. Quantum mechanics and Einstein's theory of general relativity are incompatible, and the physical laws of the universe as we currently understand them completely break down at the event horizon of a black hole. Being wrong is often part of the process and scientific advances or discovery quite often occur by trial and error.

Liara being wrong on some facets of Prothean culture hardly makes her an incompetent scientist, particularly when there is no indication that she deviated from the scientific consensus. It is also worth pointing out many of the traces of Prothean civilization had been wiped clean by the Reapers. The civilizations of the current cycle were most likely dealing with a very limited historical record for that species. 

[Ravensword]

KaiserShep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

What would Shepard do regarding finding another prothean expert anyway? Post fliers on the Citadel?

HELP WANTED

Asari prothean expert needed to serve aboard advanced experimental warship. Must work well with turian, krogan and quarian crew members. Ability to decipher mental imagery essential. Proficiency in biotics a plus. Contact at: C.Shepard@Normandy.sa.

>I would put up posters for a filthy asari:sick:

got enough xenos already

Welp, them's the breaks. The only replacement for Liara is another asari who also happens to be a prothean researcher, since you need that mind reading mojo in the same package.

Tela Vasir? Wasea? Enyala?

[Seboist]

Ravensword wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

What would Shepard do regarding finding another prothean expert anyway? Post fliers on the Citadel?

HELP WANTED

Asari prothean expert needed to serve aboard advanced experimental warship. Must work well with turian, krogan and quarian crew members. Ability to decipher mental imagery essential. Proficiency in biotics a plus. Contact at: C.Shepard@Normandy.sa.

>I would put up posters for a filthy asari:sick:

got enough xenos already

Welp, them's the breaks. The only replacement for Liara is another asari who also happens to be a prothean researcher, since you need that mind reading mojo in the same package.

Tela Vasir? Wasea? Enyala?

I would have made an exception to my no alien romancing policy for Vasir.

[KaiserShep]

Ravensword wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
Welp, them's the breaks. The only replacement for Liara is another asari who also happens to be a prothean researcher, since you need that mind reading mojo in the same package.

Tela Vasir? Wasea? Enyala?

None of these characters are useful in that they only have motivation to harm Shepard and crew and do not express any interest in the protheans, thus likely know little to nothing about them. I suppose if you rewrite them to be neutral characters you can persuade and are researchers of prothean ruins, there's that, but they would not be those characters anymore.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 novembre 2013 - 02:49 .

[Ravensword]

KaiserShep wrote...

Ravensword wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
Welp, them's the breaks. The only replacement for Liara is another asari who also happens to be a prothean researcher, since you need that mind reading mojo in the same package.

Tela Vasir? Wasea? Enyala?

None of these characters are useful in that they only have motivation to harm Shepard and crew and do not express any interest in the protheans, thus likely know little to nothing about them. I suppose if you rewrite them to be neutral characters you can persuade and are researchers of prothean ruins, there's that, but they would not be those characters anymore.

Well, once Liara outlives her usefullness (usually after ME1), Shepard can recruit these other folks. I would say that Tela Vasir is probably the best candidate.

[KaiserShep]

Whoever that replacement is would not be them. They're no more useful to Shepard, and are just as good as dead as the nameless mercs we shoot in the corridors. Whoever the best candidate is would have to be someone who we know has traversed the galaxy studying the ruins, thus would likely know where to look. None of them do this, so they're pretty much target practice. 

Technically, Liara does not outlive her usefulness after ME1, unless you choose to disregard both Shepard's revival and the Mars archives. Like it or not, she's still more useful than any of those other asari we gun down.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 novembre 2013 - 03:06 .

[Made Nightwing]

Vasir would be incredibly useful. I really think she would have made a great recruitment option. A Spectre who truly embodies the 'at any cost' mentality of protecting the greater good of the galaxy (not just one particular species like Shepard sometimes does). In fact, I'd say she's the most civic-minded asari we meet in the games.

Oh, and her smackdown speeches to Shepard were just pure badass.

EDIT: In fact, I would have really loved if some of the original ideas about the Shadow Broker were true, and they really were just a massive collection of information brokers who shared power. And then, at the end of LotSB, you get to choose whether or not to ascend Liara to complete control of the network, or turn on her in favour of getting the current Shadow Network onside, and getting Vasir as a squadmate.

Man, I would have LOVED that.

Modifié par Made Nightwing, 09 novembre 2013 - 03:14 .

[David7204]

'Pure badass'?

Sorry. 'Don't judge me' is not badass. It's something I would expect to hear from the more...13 year old girl on Facebook crowd?

[spirosz]

David7204 wrote...

'Pure badass'?

Sorry. 'Don't judge me' is not badass. It's something I would expect to hear from the more...13 year old girl on Facebook crowd?

But I am the law. 

Modifié par spirosz, 09 novembre 2013 - 03:19 .

[KaiserShep]

Any character can be useful if they're written to be open to suggestion or deals. Stubborn characters that don't grant an opportunity to listen to reason, no matter how competent, are just another notch on the rifle. 

As for handing over Liara to the shadow broker and getting Vasir as a squadmate, that sounds fun and all, but it would only add to the joke psychosis of renegade Shepard of ME2. Why would someone in the Commander's position hand over an ally who helped you to track down Saren to someone who has been nothing more than an enemy?

I would actually approve of this option, but I think it would be improved if the Shadow broker turns out to be just as much a conniving scummy yagh that sells you out, and Vasir manages to kill another squadmate aboard the Normandy in an attempt to follow through on both Archangel's bounty and Shepard's body to the Collectors.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 novembre 2013 - 03:25 .

[Ravensword]

spirosz wrote...

David7204 wrote...

'Pure badass'?

Sorry. 'Don't judge me' is not badass. It's something I would expect to hear from the more...13 year old girl on Facebook crowd?

But I am the law. 

I am the law.

[Kataphrut94]

Why do people even care about Vasir? There was nothing enjoyable or interesting about her boss fight or her character- just flicking around the place summoning mooks, making stupid arrogant proclamations and having way too much health. How come we like her, but hate Kai Leng for being exactly the same thing?

You want good boss fights, that geth colossus on Haestrom was where it was at, man. Multiple approaches suited to different playstyles, a map tailor-made to the mechanics the previous level had spent teaching the player, optional support from a rocket-launching quarian with the added time pressure of having to defeat the boss before it takes him out. Best of all, it actually makes sense for the colossus to have lots and lots of health.

So yeah, that's what I would have changed about my favorite character: make that Colossus a squadmate and get it to step on Vasir.

[Made Nightwing]

Because Vasir has a genuinely tough boss fight to beat, requiring a massive chase, foot pursuit and eventual one on one battle to beat. Because she's deceitful, conniving, resourceful, can improvise when need be, and has a genuinely complex motivation for her work. That she was wounded, but managed to keep on fighting without being too annoying. And that she dies like a complete boss, no whining or self-doubt, just one final middle finger at Shepard's self-righteousness. Damned if I can't respect the hell out of that in an adversary.

Leng's a mook who wants to advance one species, Vasir (and I can't believe the words are coming out of my mouth) has a more meaningful characterisation. Is she a hero who helps keep the Citadel safe? Is she a rogue agent who crossed the line? Or is she just an evil person who justifies her deeds with fancy speeches? Depending on how you play your Shepard, her words can strike a chord, any way you choose to take them.