And I'm not seeing any merit in that proposition at all.
What Would You have Changed About Your Favorite Character(s)?
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Han Shot First
, nov. 05 2013 06:24
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#1177
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 07:57
eyezonlyii
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I like a Jack/Kaidan working relationship, as it would show Jack the other side of the story, yeah, she had it bad by Cerberus, but Kaidan had it bad by the Alliance (well Conetix really, but for the interest of arguement: someone NOT Cerberus), and he still turned out more than alright. It would give her someone to connect to and give his biotic division a face. Personally, I would have liked to have pushed the Grissom mission back so he could be there, and in the interest of feelz, have had Rahna as instructor instead of Jack.
#1178
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 07:57
teh DRUMPf!!
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David7204 wrote...
And I'm not seeing any merit in that proposition at all.
Do tell.
#1179
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 08:01
David7204
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It's an uninteresting rehash of Jack's arc. I really don't care that Kaidan 'commands' his team from the Normandy instead of Jack (which makes little sense on the first place, since Kaidan's experience is on the tactical and not the strategic scale).
Here's a suggestion. Take anything worthwhile you can salvage from this and consider if it could have been applied to Jack. And think up something new for Kaidan.
Here's a suggestion. Take anything worthwhile you can salvage from this and consider if it could have been applied to Jack. And think up something new for Kaidan.
#1180
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 08:07
DeinonSlayer
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David dislikes something. Stop the presses.
I like it, eyezonlyii, even if it's merely a tangent. Far too often ME is treated as a series of disjointed short stories, no element touching any other. This is a pleasant break from that pattern.
I like it, eyezonlyii, even if it's merely a tangent. Far too often ME is treated as a series of disjointed short stories, no element touching any other. This is a pleasant break from that pattern.
Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 10 novembre 2013 - 08:09 .
#1181
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 08:12
Guest_StreetMagic_*
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DeinonSlayer wrote...
David dislikes something. Stop the presses.
I like it, eyezonlyii, even if it's merely a tangent. Far too often ME is treated as a series of disjointed short stories, no element touching any other. This is a pleasant break from that pattern.
That's more a symptom of them not having too many dependable core elements. I dislike it too, but that's the way it rolls. It's why Liara becomes an anchor for various things. Her presence is easily depended upon and write with (I mean, she can comment on Protheans, Ardat-Yakshi, Cerberus, Shadow Broker stuff and pretty much lurker insight on everything in the galaxy, Hackett, etc). I think they handled someone like Jack as well as they could, and gave her the appearance of some importance, even if not a core element (same with Wrex).
Modifié par StreetMagic, 10 novembre 2013 - 08:14 .
#1182
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 08:14
David7204
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Yes. The more influence characters have on the central plot and with each other, the less freedom the player has to kill, dismiss, or ignore, or even define their relationship with them.
I would suggest you get used to it, Deinon.
I would suggest you get used to it, Deinon.
Modifié par David7204, 10 novembre 2013 - 08:15 .
#1183
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 08:23
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David7204 wrote...
Yes. The more influence characters have on the central plot and with each other, the less freedom the player has to kill, dismiss, or ignore, or even define their relationship with them.
I would suggest you get used to it, Deinon.
Get used to it in this series, yes.
Not so sure about the future. Mac Walters said this was a headache. He thought the Suicide mission was overkill, for example. "What were we thinking?" I think Dragon Age handled this stuff better. Deaths weren't so numerous (they even retconned some deaths.. like Leliana. She was too cool to leave out). Hopefully new ME games will follow suit.. I think it's possible to still have freedom in roleplaying mixed with a bigger core for the writers to revolve things around.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 10 novembre 2013 - 08:25 .
#1184
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 08:26
David7204
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I would welcome that. But it would doubtless start up a storm of shrieking that the series is abandoning every semblance of an RPG to be a COD shooter.
#1185
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 08:34
teh DRUMPf!!
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David7204 wrote...
It's an uninteresting rehash of Jack's arc. I really don't care that Kaidan 'commands' his team from the Normandy instead of Jack (which makes little sense on the first place, since Kaidan's experience is on the tactical and not the strategic scale).
You do realize that Jack's character itself is largely a rehash of Kaidan's character, right? A rehash of things like: training biotic potential in humans, biotic humans' role in the galaxy, abuse and recovery, shady side of human galactic organizations, etc. Obviously Jack and Kaidan went in very different directions, but they dealt with the same core topics.
Given the clear similarities that exist between the two of them, I would argue that intertwining their character arcs a bit is not such a bad thing, and pehaps even... logical? And as far as "uninteresting" goes, I disagree. Vehemently. One of the reasons why Citadel DLC is so enjoyable is because we see all companions together, interacting with one another. In this scenario I've outlined, there's definitely a lot of potential for interesting interaction between two very similar characters. Come to think of it, that's a missed opportunity on Citadel DLC: Kaidan and Jack talking about and comparing their respective biotic-training.
However, it still wouldn't truly be a "rehash" because Kaidan's growth as a character would be different from Jack's, as I would imagine it in this scenario. For Jack, it's about no longer being a lone-wolf and doing something good with her biotic talents. For Kaidan, it would be about handling greater responsibility and how that shapes his political world-views.
Worse comes to worse, the player doesn't like it, and avoids it by killing Kaidan on Virmire.
Modifié par HYR 2.0, 10 novembre 2013 - 08:39 .
#1186
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 08:48
David7204
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No, Jack is not a rehash of Kaidan. Those 'similarities exist' between half the pairs of squadmates in Mass Effect, and probably half the pairs of companions in fiction altogether. Having a dark past is overwhelmingly common, experiencing some sort of abuse and recovery is overwhelmingly common. You're not 'intertwining' anything, you're just piggybacking Kaidan on top of Jack. Liara, Tali, Garrus, and Jack all have themes of taking greater responsibility. And what exactly does 'shaping his political world views' even mean? Is teaching kids going to teach Kaidan something he didn't already know way before ME 1 even started? He already knows that humans have much to contribute to the galaxy and has for half his life.
Modifié par David7204, 10 novembre 2013 - 08:49 .
#1187
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 09:08
teh DRUMPf!!
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David7204 wrote...
No, Jack is not a rehash of Kaidan. Those 'similarities exist' between half the pairs of squadmates in Mass Effect, and probably half the pairs of companions in fiction altogether. Having a dark past is overwhelmingly common, experiencing some sort of abuse and recovery is overwhelmingly common. You're not 'intertwining' anything, you're just piggybacking Kaidan on top of Jack. Liara, Tali, Garrus, and Jack all have themes of taking greater responsibility. And what exactly does 'shaping his political world views' even mean? Is teaching kids going to teach Kaidan something he didn't already know way before ME 1 even started? He already knows that humans have much to contribute to the galaxy?
Criminy cripes, David.
If you were actually comprehending anything that I was posting, you would know that teaching kids is NOT what I would have Kaidan doing in this scenario I have outlined. I've even gone back and clarified this a couple times now.
A wise football guru once told me this: "If they can't see it, you can't make them see it." Such is the case with you. At this point, it's pretty clear that the only thing you can and will see is some idea you yourself have constructed, and not the one that I came up with and am talking about right now. So, there's no real point in trying to explain this any further.
Goodbye. And good riddance.
#1188
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 09:31
TheMyron
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I might even sacrifice Ashley on Virmire if I could then replace Kaiden on the Normandy for Jack. Kaiden can teach those brats while I have my girl with me.
#1189
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 09:39
Guest_StreetMagic_*
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Kaidan, Jacob, Ash, and Miranda all have a little of each other in them, I think. But I think Jack takes a little of Ash and Kaidan, but stands out for individual things as well (I think she shares a lot in common with default Shepard, actually).
I read Hudson saying that Kaidan turned out to be one of the more unpopular characters of ME1 though (while Garrus' and Tali's popularity were a surprise).. But I think they really wanted to address the biotic element in the MEU. So Jack and Miranda may have been a new attempt at that (while also getting into the Cerberus stories at the same time).
edit: Bleh. It's late. I hope that post made sense.
I read Hudson saying that Kaidan turned out to be one of the more unpopular characters of ME1 though (while Garrus' and Tali's popularity were a surprise).. But I think they really wanted to address the biotic element in the MEU. So Jack and Miranda may have been a new attempt at that (while also getting into the Cerberus stories at the same time).
edit: Bleh. It's late. I hope that post made sense.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 10 novembre 2013 - 09:43 .
#1190
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 06:02
Han Shot First
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Ashley/Kaidan: Not necessarily my favorite characters but I do like them. I would have altered the Horizon cameo. While I'm totally fine with both characters refusing to join a Cerberus crew I thought Shepard's dialogue was very badly handled. Rather than trying to explain his point of view he just delivers lame lines like, "C'mon Ash it will be just like old times!" This is particularly annoying if you are roleplaying a Shepard who doesn't like TIM or Cerberus at all, and is just working with them out of sheer necessity.
I'd also have altered the Arrival DLC to include squadmates and to be focused on the Virmire survivor in the same way that LotSB was focused on Liara. Any lingering trust issues could potentially be resolved in the DLC and be out of the way by Mars, unless the player decides to go full on renedouche with their dialogue, in which case those issues would carry over into ME3.
Also Ashley needed at least one more conversation on the Normandy after returning from the hospital. The cut conversation where she talks with Shepard about life and death and asks if he had any spiritual experiences when he died, should totally have been in the game.
I'd also have altered the Arrival DLC to include squadmates and to be focused on the Virmire survivor in the same way that LotSB was focused on Liara. Any lingering trust issues could potentially be resolved in the DLC and be out of the way by Mars, unless the player decides to go full on renedouche with their dialogue, in which case those issues would carry over into ME3.
Also Ashley needed at least one more conversation on the Normandy after returning from the hospital. The cut conversation where she talks with Shepard about life and death and asks if he had any spiritual experiences when he died, should totally have been in the game.
Modifié par Han Shot First, 10 novembre 2013 - 06:03 .
#1191
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 07:59
eyezonlyii
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Do you sacrifice Kaidan on Virmire just because he's male? Or is there more to it than that? After reading your posts and some threads, I really am curious.TheMyron wrote...
I might even sacrifice Ashley on Virmire if I could then replace Kaiden on the Normandy for Jack. Kaiden can teach those brats while I have my girl with me.
#1192
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 09:34
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I know you didn't ask me, but I find certain characters fit different backstories better. I find that Kaidan plays a good "good cop" Biotic to my ReneShep Vanguard's "bad cop". OTOH, on my soldier, I like having Ash (and Vega) around as student/protege types. Jack gets romanced either way though. If I thought about it, my Soldier Shep was kind of a careless meathead with all human biotics in me1.. I killed a lot of them in those hostage situations, and then squandered a great asset to humanity in Kaidan. Jack helps fix the mistakes there.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 10 novembre 2013 - 09:37 .
#1193
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 09:53
TheMyron
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eyezonlyii wrote...
Do you sacrifice Kaidan on Virmire just because he's male? Or is there more to it than that? After reading your posts and some threads, I really am curious.TheMyron wrote...
I might even sacrifice Ashley on Virmire if I could then replace Kaiden on the Normandy for Jack. Kaiden can teach those brats while I have my girl with me.
No, but I feel like a complete arse if I leave Ashley behind, even if I have no chemistry with her. "Women and Children First", I guess you could call it.
#1194
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 10:19
eyezonlyii
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If she lives because she's a woman, doesn't that mean he dies beause he is a man? Anywas if they were civilians I could agree with you, maybe...but she is a soldier, as is he, and all things considered, he is a more valuable asset in terms of return of investment.TheMyron wrote...
eyezonlyii wrote...
Do you sacrifice Kaidan on Virmire just because he's male? Or is there more to it than that? After reading your posts and some threads, I really am curious.TheMyron wrote...
I might even sacrifice Ashley on Virmire if I could then replace Kaiden on the Normandy for Jack. Kaiden can teach those brats while I have my girl with me.
No, but I feel like a complete arse if I leave Ashley behind, even if I have no chemistry with her. "Women and Children First", I guess you could call it.
#1195
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 11:12
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The choice is two tier, remember. I think it's just as important. First you choose who goes with Kirrahe. I think it makes more sense to keep Kaidan with the bomb. If so, maybe you think you need to go back for him to insure the bomb is set up right. Or you just take his word for it and try to get as many people as possible alive if you save Ash and Kirrahe (Kirrahe and his team live despite all of this, but I think it's better to roleplay it this way.. where they're survival depends on saving the squad member you sent with them).
Of course, Bioware was also trying to pull the strings a bit depending on who you romance. If so, most will go for the Love Interest 90% of the time. Doesn't matter what the context is. It's shallow and an error in judgement, but a fun roleplaying possibility.
Of course, Bioware was also trying to pull the strings a bit depending on who you romance. If so, most will go for the Love Interest 90% of the time. Doesn't matter what the context is. It's shallow and an error in judgement, but a fun roleplaying possibility.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 10 novembre 2013 - 11:15 .
#1196
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 11:15
MassivelyEffective0730
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TheMyron wrote...
eyezonlyii wrote...
Do you sacrifice Kaidan on Virmire just because he's male? Or is there more to it than that? After reading your posts and some threads, I really am curious.TheMyron wrote...
I might even sacrifice Ashley on Virmire if I could then replace Kaiden on the Normandy for Jack. Kaiden can teach those brats while I have my girl with me.
No, but I feel like a complete arse if I leave Ashley behind, even if I have no chemistry with her. "Women and Children First", I guess you could call it.
I prefer "people who have more utility and use".
I hate to be a jackass, but it's thinking like this that makes me oppose having women in combat arms in the military. Not because they can't do the job, but because their mere presence puts this kind of thinking forward from men.
#1197
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 11:29
rekn2
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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
TheMyron wrote...
eyezonlyii wrote...
Do you sacrifice Kaidan on Virmire just because he's male? Or is there more to it than that? After reading your posts and some threads, I really am curious.TheMyron wrote...
I might even sacrifice Ashley on Virmire if I could then replace Kaiden on the Normandy for Jack. Kaiden can teach those brats while I have my girl with me.
No, but I feel like a complete arse if I leave Ashley behind, even if I have no chemistry with her. "Women and Children First", I guess you could call it.
I prefer "people who have more utility and use".
I hate to be a jackass, but it's thinking like this that makes me oppose having women in combat arms in the military. Not because they can't do the job, but because their mere presence puts this kind of thinking forward from men.
some combat is fine but certain operations require the strength of the male. i can see females being infantry etc but not SF
#1198
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Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 11:31
Guest_StreetMagic_*
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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
TheMyron wrote...
eyezonlyii wrote...
Do you sacrifice Kaidan on Virmire just because he's male? Or is there more to it than that? After reading your posts and some threads, I really am curious.TheMyron wrote...
I might even sacrifice Ashley on Virmire if I could then replace Kaiden on the Normandy for Jack. Kaiden can teach those brats while I have my girl with me.
No, but I feel like a complete arse if I leave Ashley behind, even if I have no chemistry with her. "Women and Children First", I guess you could call it.
I prefer "people who have more utility and use".
I hate to be a jackass, but it's thinking like this that makes me oppose having women in combat arms in the military. Not because they can't do the job, but because their mere presence puts this kind of thinking forward from men.
Just put ugly women out there then. No one will bend over backwards then.
#1199
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 11:33
Made Nightwing
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@rekn2. No deal. SF are great and all, but their missions are more focused and specific than infantry ops. Infantry can wind up being in the boonies for weeks at a time with 60+ kilos of pack, food, ammo, armour and weapons, every time they go out. Well, light inf, at least, that's my field. If anything, physical endurance has been a big focus in my training, rather than some of the specialist skills that SF have to acquire.
@MassivelyEffective. I've seen some propose 'women only' combat arms units to prevent that kind of thinking. Wishful thinking, but then again....
@MassivelyEffective. I've seen some propose 'women only' combat arms units to prevent that kind of thinking. Wishful thinking, but then again....
Modifié par Made Nightwing, 10 novembre 2013 - 11:35 .
#1200
Posté 10 novembre 2013 - 11:36
Made Nightwing
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StreetMagic wrote...
MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
TheMyron wrote...
eyezonlyii wrote...
Do you sacrifice Kaidan on Virmire just because he's male? Or is there more to it than that? After reading your posts and some threads, I really am curious.TheMyron wrote...
I might even sacrifice Ashley on Virmire if I could then replace Kaiden on the Normandy for Jack. Kaiden can teach those brats while I have my girl with me.
No, but I feel like a complete arse if I leave Ashley behind, even if I have no chemistry with her. "Women and Children First", I guess you could call it.
I prefer "people who have more utility and use".
I hate to be a jackass, but it's thinking like this that makes me oppose having women in combat arms in the military. Not because they can't do the job, but because their mere presence puts this kind of thinking forward from men.
Just put ugly women out there then. No one will bend over backwards then.
After a few weeks in the scrub, even the diesel dykes in Transport Corps start looking like Miss Australia, man.
