1324 réponses à ce sujet

[wolfhowwl]

David7204 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

It's the virgin thing. It's doubled up with Tali. Teen age boys must have their virgins. They must be the first.

Come on, the woman is 106 years old. She's been through university. She's got a PhD. She's never done a sexual meld?

I wish BW would write deeper characters.

Heroes are lonely. They're unsuccessful in romance. They're unpopular. That is, at least in the normal world.

It makes perfect sense. It's the path they walk.

Why is it necessary that Tali and Liara be virgins?

I thought that was one of the most cringeworthy aspects of both characters.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 05 novembre 2013 - 11:56 .

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

Not my path.

I would say storytellers have the freedom to tell whatever stories they wish, and can choose to move away from that premise and still tell a very good story. But the premise still exists.

That doesn't mean the premise is absolute 

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

David7204 wrote...

There are always variations. And there are always writers who mess up. It doesn't matter. The important fact is that this path exists, and exists for a reason. A very strong reason. It's not at all 'contrived' for heroes to have no friends and no success in romance initially.

Like there's some objective force or party dictating "hero" formulas to all of us.

There is, actually. Of sorts.

Allow me to explain in the following post.

http://rack.3.mshcdn...NjAwPg/4660ab29

Can I use the restroom first, professor?

[Sir DeLoria]

eyezonlyii wrote...

What about Odysseus? He was married before he went to war, and I'm pretty sure he was a high ranking hero/king beforehand as well.

EDIT: well damn...always late to the party...

Yep, mentioned him earlier;)

Almost all ancient greek heroes were of high social status and prestige even before their major accomplishments. 

[spirosz]

wolfhowwl wrote...

David7204 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

It's the virgin thing. It's doubled up with Tali. Teen age boys must have their virgins. They must be the first.

Come on, the woman is 106 years old. She's been through university. She's got a PhD. She's never done a sexual meld?

I wish BW would write deeper characters.

Heroes are lonely. They're unsuccessful in romance. They're unpopular. That is, at least in the normal world.

It makes perfect sense. It's the path they walk.

Why is it necessary that Tali and Liara be virgins?

I thought that was one of the most cringeworthy aspects of both characters.

I find it works for Tali, not so much for Liara.  That is just preference from how I view them both though. 

[Mr.House]

Bioware decided they wanted anime rules and cliches in their story.

[Wulfram]

Another (really minor) thing I'd change about Liara:
She should know what a Rachni looks like. They're not exactly obscure, they threatened to conquer the galaxy.  I'd say Bioware were trying to preserve the surprise, but they gave them Rachni name tags.

Modifié par Wulfram, 06 novembre 2013 - 12:01 .

[spirosz]

Mr.House wrote...

Bioware decided they wanted anime rules and cliches in their story.

[Jorji Costava]

I'm going to post something relevant to the original topic, which almost certainly means that this post will be utterly ignored, but oh well. As far as things I'd change about some of my favorite characters:

Legion: I'd drop the whole N7 armor business from the character in ME2. Just wasn't necessary. I liked the idea that Legion was totally different from us, and had no interest in trying to be like us. That of course means major changes to the entire Rannoch arc as well, with the Pinocchio subtext, but that's ground that's been covered many times on these boards.

Ashley: Posted this one before, but everyone ignored it, so I'll post it again (so it can get ignored again. Yay!): You could have Ashley/Kaiden become the next human spectre during that two-year interval between ME1 and ME2; they established themselves as a suitable candidates by being victorious in some particularly vicious encounters with Cerberus.

This would (a) explain what the hell they've been doing with themselves in that two-year span, ( give them credibility as capable soldiers who can accomplish things apart from Shepard, and © give them a reason to not join up with Shepard (i.e. their personal resentment towards Cerberus) that even the alien characters wouldn't necessarily have. It would also give Ashley an interesting personal conflict; whereas the Alliance, to whom she's been loyal the whole time, has largely kicked her to the curb, the Council, who she distrusts, have put her in a position of power and responsibility, a tension that could test her loyalties in interesting ways.

There's probably a lot more to say about what I'd change about the characters I don't like, but I'll leave it there.

EDIT: Fixed paragraphs

Modifié par osbornep, 06 novembre 2013 - 12:06 .

[David7204]

The core of the hero is competence.

For real competence to exist, (the kind of competence necessary for the hero to succeed in his adventures) it must be based on love, and on respect. The hero has great, great love for the tools he posseses, and the tools he eventually sees with future companions. Tools such as strength, as courage, as intelligence, and as honor. The hero thus embodies such traits. They're allowed to flourish within him because of his immense love and respect, whereas they wilt in others. 

The 'normal' world around the hero is dishonest and corrupt. Not overwhelmingly corrupt, but enough that it's as if the hero is crooked. In fact, he's perfectly straight. The world around him is crooked.

So when the hero looks around the normal world, and what he sees is imitations and subtitutions of that which he has overwhelmingly love and respect for. And his reaction is contempt. Or at best, innocent indifference. You cannot feel such love for the real thing and accept the imitation.

It's not a world he accepts. So he makes a choice. He seperates himself from the world. And he suffers for that choice. And thus, he's lonely. He's unsuccessful in romance. He's generally reletively poor. He could have everything the normal world has to offer him, but chooses not to take it. Because he has something far more valuble within himself.

It's the exact same choice that Shepard made. That Garrus made. That Liara made. That Thane, that Miranda, that Samara made.

Modifié par David7204, 06 novembre 2013 - 12:09 .

[wolfhowwl]

osbornep wrote...
Legion: I'd drop the whole N7 armor business from the character in ME2. Just wasn't necessary.

That was revealed to be meddling by someone high up on the Mass Effect team. They thought it would be "cool."

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

The core of the hero is competence.

For real competence to exist, (the kind of competence necessary for the hero to succeed in his adventures) it must be based on love, and on respect. The hero has great, great love for the tools he posseses, and the tools he eventually sees with future companions. Tools such as strength, as courage, as intelligence, and as honor. The hero thus embodies such traits. They're allowed to flourish within him because of his immense love and respect, whereas they wilt in others. 

The 'normal' world around the hero is dishonest and corrupt. Not overwhelmingly corrupt, but enough that it's as if the hero is crooked. In fact, he's perfectly straight. The world around him is crooked.

So when the hero looks around the normal world, and what he sees is imitations and subtitutions of that which he has overwhelmingly love and respect for. And his reaction is contempt. Or at best, innocent indifference. You cannot feel such love for the real thing and accept the imitation.

It's not a world he accepts. So he makes a choice. He seperates himself from the world. And he suffers for that choice. And thus, he's lonely. He's unsuccessful in romance. He's generally reletively poor. He could have everything the normal world has to offer him, but chooses not to take it. Because he has something far more valuble within himself.

It's the exact same choice that Shepard made. That Garrus made. That Liara made. That Thane, that Miranda, that Samara made.

Hmmm. So would this person still generally like people for who they are and what they can be, just not want to interact terribly much with them on a day-to-day level, but still want what's best for them?

[Mr.House]

David7204 wrote...

The core of the hero is competence.

For real competence to exist, (the kind of competence necessary for the hero to succeed in his adventures) it must be based on love, and on respect. The hero has great, great love for the tools he posseses, and the tools he eventually sees with future companions. Tools such as strength, as courage, as intelligence, and as honor. The hero thus embodies such traits. They're allowed to flourish within him because of his immense love and respect, whereas they wilt in others. 

The 'normal' world around the hero is dishonest and corrupt. Not overwhelmingly corrupt, but enough that it's as if the hero is crooked. In fact, he's perfectly straight. The world around him is crooked.

So when the hero looks around the normal world, and what he sees is imitations and subtitutions of that which he has overwhelmingly love and respect for. And his reaction is contempt. Or at best, innocent indifference. You cannot feel such love for the real thing and accept the imitation.

It's not a world he accepts. So he makes a choice. He seperates himself from the world. And he suffers for that choice. And thus, he's lonely. He's unsuccessful in romance. He's generally reletively poor. He could have everything the normal world has to offer him, but chooses not to take it. Because he has something far more valuble within himself.

It's the exact same choice that Shepard made. That Garrus made. That Liara made. That Thane, that Miranda, that Samara made.

Play more games/read more fiction please.

[eyezonlyii]

osbornep wrote...


Ashley: Posted this one before, but everyone ignored it, so I'll post it again (so it can get ignored again. Yay!): You could have Ashley/Kaiden become the next human spectre during that two-year interval between ME1 and ME2; they established themselves as a suitable candidates by being victorious in some particularly vicious encounters with Cerberus.

This would (a) explain what the hell they've been doing with themselves in that two-year span, ( give them credibility as capable soldiers who can accomplish things apart from Shepard, and © give them a reason to not join up with Shepard (i.e. their personal resentment towards Cerberus) that even the alien characters wouldn't necessarily have. It would also give Ashley an interesting personal conflict; whereas the Alliance, to whom she's been loyal the whole time, has largely kicked her to the curb, the Council, who she distrusts, have put her in a position of power and responsibility, a tension that could test her loyalties in interesting ways.

There's probably a lot more to say about what I'd change about the characters I don't like, but I'll leave it there.

EDIT: Fixed paragraphs

I actually think this would work for Ashley moreso than Kaidan, because you find out that Kaidan was put in charge of a biotic Spec-ops team, so that makes sense for his two years. actually how interesting would it be if Kaidan specifically got one of his recruits from Grissom and had unique dialogue there...oh wait he isn't present for that mission...damn. I just wish for some Kaidan/Jack interaction.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I wonder how I fit into David's heroism book.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 06 novembre 2013 - 12:30 .

[Xilizhra]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I how I fit into David's heroism book.

My guess:

You personally: a bystander.
Your Shepard: Dead at his feet.

[Xilizhra]

StreetMagic wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I how I fit into David's heroism book.

INTJs are never heroic. They might try, but they're more like that kid from Death Note. Or Illusive Man.

Perdon, but I am INTJ.

[dreamgazer]

(observes)

[eyezonlyii]

Xilizhra wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I how I fit into David's heroism book.

INTJs are never heroic. They might try, but they're more like that kid from Death Note. Or Illusive Man.

Perdon, but I am INTJ.

Ergo, not heroic. 

[David7204]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hmmm. So would this person still generally like people for who they are and what they can be, just not want to interact terribly much with them on a day-to-day level, but still want what's best for them?

I think one of the most difficult lessons a hero must learn is that other people are not like him and cannot be made to be like him. That what he sees as the most obvious thing in the world is incomprehensible to others. Of course, this lesson is generally learned long before the story begins.

So...I suppose the answer must ultimately be 'no.' He gets along with people well enough on the surface, but has to accept that people are what they are, and he is what is is.

[spirosz]

StreetMagic wrote...
There's a lot to admire about people who know how to connect with others.